Lady Griz @ South Dakota thread

[MissoulaCanucksFan]

Second time this season the Lady Griz will be taking on a nationally-ranked team, as the Coyotes are ranked 21st in the country with a 10-1 record (USD's only loss of the season was to another ranked team, 18th/20th ranked Missouri State). It will also be the last nonconference game of the season against a Division 1 team (their nonconference finale is 12/20 against MSU Billings at Dahlberg Arena).

Here's the preview of the game from the Griz athletics website: https://gogriz.com/news/2019/12/13/womens-basketball-lady-griz-to-face-ranked-coyotes-on-the-road.aspx

 

[grizzlyjournal]

This will be a tough one for Montana... probably a challenge similar to their earlier 77-42 loss to Arizona (currently undefeated and allowing an average of 43 pts per game). South Dakota leads the very tough Summit conference (talking women's hoops), one where the top Big Sky team (probably Idaho State at this juncture) would be a 3rd to 4th place team at best. So far the Coyotes best wins are over Drake, Utah, Missouri, Missouri State, Ohio State and Creighton.

So, a perfect early season match for the GrizWBB... much better than playing a lower division team. I see this as a challenge similar to the upper division games the Griz men are playing. Hope to post once or twice on this thread during the game. Go Griz!

 

[grizzlyjournal]

A bit of good news... Madi Schoening is suited up and has seen early action. Schoening, who's been on the sideline in street clothing for much of the pre-season... if she can stay healthy (back probs) can give Montana depth at guard in the absence of departed Sammy Fatkin.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

52-32, Coyotes at the half. South Dakota has a great inside-outside game with some solid post power, which Montana has defended pretty well, but the Coyote's perimeter game has spelled the difference. The Coyotes are shooting 65% from the perimeter on 9-14... many from well beyond the arc.

Montana's interior game keeps improving... 19 points in the paint with Stockholm (8), Pickens (7 but w/one trey) and Anderson (2) playing well. An oddity: McKenzie Johnston scoreless (she's being trapped on a d-t quite a bit) but every other Griz on the floor with buckets.

 

[cmtgrizzly]

GJ, this is the first I have seen of the team in two years. Stiles appears to belong. Cant tell about the rest as this is a pretty one sided affair. We look a step behind in speed and athleticism at most spots. Are we just young? Do you see a significant change coming in the next 1-2 years or do you think we will continue as we have been (names on jerseys will change but not the results)?

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Soouth Dakota hoops... what an irony. An incredible college women's basketball team and I'll bet there are NOT even 1000 fans in attendance. Echoes in the arena.

 

[braves84]

South Dakota 96-64 over Montana, coyotes dominated in all aspects. From the outside to the inside and from points off turnovers. Total domination.
South Dakota would have gotten to 100 if they wouldn't have called off the dogs mid way through the 4th quarter.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

GJ, this is the first I have seen of the team in two years. Stiles appears to belong. Cant tell about the rest as this is a pretty one sided affair. We look a step behind in speed and athleticism at most spots. Are we just young? Do you see a significant change coming in the next 1-2 years or do you think we will continue as we have been (names on jerseys will change but not the results)?

cmtgrizzly: You ask pretty open-ended questions, so I don't know if you'll consider my answers adequate. But here goes. I believe Montana has taken hard blows through serious injuries over the past 4 years and (in several ways) are still affected by those setbacks. Regardless, I believe this team can compete this season in the Big Sky IF they don't lose any more players to injury.

NO Big Sky conf. team can compete with South Dakota (a top 25 team) and South Dakota State (a top 25 team over the past 6-8 years but not this year). As braves84 wrote, South Dakota totally dominated Montana. Yep. And the Coyotes would beat every Big Sky team on their home floor by between 25-40 points. The pre-season Big Sky top team -- Montana State -- lost to South Dakota State in Bozeman last week by 10. The only other direct comparison I can make is this: Last week, South Dakota beat Utah in SLC, 84-81. The next night, Utah beat Eastern Washington (last year's Big Sky tourney 2nd place team) by a score of 87-49. Furthermore, all Big Sky Conf. teams that played top 25 teams this season have lost by a minimum of 35 and up to 50 points. Idaho and Idaho State have come closest in games vs. Power 5 teams. It's not a Montana problem; it's a Big Sky Conf. problem. The Big Sky competes pretty much on a level with the WAC and Big West and somewhat under the level of the Summit Conf.

With that perspective, I believe Montana can be competitive in the Big Sky this season. The top tier teams are MSU, Idaho, ISU, and PSU, with Southern Utah & Montana having the chance of breaking into that group. With good luck (meaning, no more injuries to key players) I think Montana can be a top 4 Big Sky finisher. Frankly, I have no interest in predicting significant change in the next two seasons. This program's best prospects for building a solid foundation lie with this year's team. I say this, fully aware that coach Schweyen is in the final season of her current contract. I am a fan of, and an enthusiastic supporter of this Montana GrizzWBB team, and this team's coaches.

 

[cmtgrizzly]

GJ, this is the first I have seen of the team in two years. Stiles appears to belong. Cant tell about the rest as this is a pretty one sided affair. We look a step behind in speed and athleticism at most spots. Are we just young? Do you see a significant change coming in the next 1-2 years or do you think we will continue as we have been (names on jerseys will change but not the results)?

cmtgrizzly: You ask pretty open-ended questions, so I don't know if you'll consider my answers adequate. But here goes. I believe Montana has taken hard blows through serious injuries over the past 4 years and (in several ways) are still affected by those setbacks. Regardless, I believe this team can compete this season in the Big Sky IF they don't lose any more players to injury.

NO Big Sky conf. team can compete with South Dakota (a top 25 team) and South Dakota State (a top 25 team over the past 6-8 years but not this year). As braves84 wrote, South Dakota totally dominated Montana. Yep. And the Coyotes would beat every Big Sky team on their home floor by between 25-40 points. The pre-season Big Sky top team -- Montana State -- lost to South Dakota State in Bozeman last week by 10. The only other direct comparison I can make is this: Last week, South Dakota beat Utah in SLC, 84-81. The next night, Utah beat Eastern Washington (last year's Big Sky tourney 2nd place team) by a score of 87-49. Furthermore, all Big Sky Conf. teams that played top 25 teams this season have lost by a minimum of 35 and up to 50 points. Idaho and Idaho State have come closest in games vs. Power 5 teams. It's not a Montana problem; it's a Big Sky Conf. problem. The Big Sky competes pretty much on a level with the WAC and Big West and somewhat under the level of the Summit Conf.

With that perspective, I believe Montana can be competitive in the Big Sky this season. The top tier teams are MSU, Idaho, ISU, and PSU, with Southern Utah & Montana having the chance of breaking into that group. With good luck (meaning, no more injuries to key players) I think Montana can be a top 4 Big Sky finisher. Frankly, I have no interest in predicting significant change in the next two seasons. This program's best prospects for building a solid foundation lie with this year's team. I say this, fully aware that coach Schweyen is in the final season of her current contract. I am a fan of, and an enthusiastic supporter of this Montana GrizzWBB team, and this team's coaches.

First, if you think I am implying we need a coaching change, I am not. I dont have inside info, as some apparently feel they do, as to the inner workings of the team morale/coach-player relationships. Shannon may be amazing for all I know. Her being an alumna I root for her to be successful.

Now maybe a better way to get to my point, as you say, USD and SDSU are top 25 programs. These are peer institutions. Why the big gap and are we doing anything to close it? From the little I have seen and from win/loss results, I dont think small tweaks are going to suffice. I welcome all opinions. I singled out GJ because he seems to follow the program much more closely than most. Certainly more than I.

 

[Copper Griz]

GJ, this is the first I have seen of the team in two years. Stiles appears to belong. Cant tell about the rest as this is a pretty one sided affair. We look a step behind in speed and athleticism at most spots. Are we just young? Do you see a significant change coming in the next 1-2 years or do you think we will continue as we have been (names on jerseys will change but not the results)?

cmtgrizzly: You ask pretty open-ended questions, so I don't know if you'll consider my answers adequate. But here goes. I believe Montana has taken hard blows through serious injuries over the past 4 years and (in several ways) are still affected by those setbacks. Regardless, I believe this team can compete this season in the Big Sky IF they don't lose any more players to injury.

NO Big Sky conf. team can compete with South Dakota (a top 25 team) and South Dakota State (a top 25 team over the past 6-8 years but not this year). As braves84 wrote, South Dakota totally dominated Montana. Yep. And the Coyotes would beat every Big Sky team on their home floor by between 25-40 points. The pre-season Big Sky top team -- Montana State -- lost to South Dakota State in Bozeman last week by 10. The only other direct comparison I can make is this: Last week, South Dakota beat Utah in SLC, 84-81. The next night, Utah beat Eastern Washington (last year's Big Sky tourney 2nd place team) by a score of 87-49. Furthermore, all Big Sky Conf. teams that played top 25 teams this season have lost by a minimum of 35 and up to 50 points. Idaho and Idaho State have come closest in games vs. Power 5 teams. It's not a Montana problem; it's a Big Sky Conf. problem. The Big Sky competes pretty much on a level with the WAC and Big West and somewhat under the level of the Summit Conf.

With that perspective, I believe Montana can be competitive in the Big Sky this season. The top tier teams are MSU, Idaho, ISU, and PSU, with Southern Utah & Montana having the chance of breaking into that group. With good luck (meaning, no more injuries to key players) I think Montana can be a top 4 Big Sky finisher. Frankly, I have no interest in predicting significant change in the next two seasons. This program's best prospects for building a solid foundation lie with this year's team. I say this, fully aware that coach Schweyen is in the final season of her current contract. I am a fan of, and an enthusiastic supporter of this Montana GrizzWBB team, and this team's coaches.

First, if you think I am implying we need a coaching change, I am not. I dont have inside info, as some apparently feel they do, as to the inner workings of the team morale/coach-player relationships. Shannon may be amazing for all I know. Her being an alumna I root for her to be successful.

Now maybe a better way to get to my point, as you say, USD and SDSU are top 25 programs. These are peer institutions. Why the big gap and are we doing anything to close it? From the little I have seen and from win/loss results, I dont think small tweaks are going to suffice. I welcome all opinions. I singled out GJ because he seems to follow the program much more closely than most. Certainly more than I.

All info leaking from within the program points to an unhealthy atmosphere. The end

 

[84GRIZ]

When you allow your opponent to shoot 43% from beyond the arc you are not going to win many games. Shannon’s teams have been terrible from day one defending the three. You would think after four years she would realize that she needs to change something.

 

[Grizfan-24]

I am a big believer that teams who are inefficient on offense AND don’t make their opposition inefficient on offense are going to struggle more than not. There is no magical tool for teams to be suddenly good on the defensive end, but rather it takes a lot of hard work.

This team has been brutal offensively the past three years (injuries have played a large role in that) but they have been merely average on defense. They struggle defending on the perimeter, while being horrible from the perimeter on offense. When you are operating at a 12-15 deficit from 3 every game, you are going to have a difficult time winning games against good opponents. To cert:

Fresno State (L) -30
Grand Canyon (W) -21
Arizona (L) -12
Santa Clara (L) -18
CS Fullerton (W) +6
UVUU (W) -9
USD (L) -33

They don’t limit three point shots either. They are operating at a deficit every game, and some of that is to be expected as they are a post oriented offense.Yet they shoot at a lower percentage than their opponent while giving up a better percentage defensively. That just is a negative deficit that makes it hard to win games.

I have said rather consistently over the past three years, the women can return to the top of the conference if they can figure out the defensive end. I don’t know they have and while they might be a bit better offensively, they are going to keep struggling to get by opponents or putting them away with their struggles on the perimeter. Just an observation.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

I am a big believer that teams who are inefficient on offense AND don’t make their opposition inefficient on offense are going to struggle more than not. There is no magical tool for teams to be suddenly good on the defensive end, but rather it takes a lot of hard work.

This team has been brutal offensively the past three years (injuries have played a large role in that) but they have been merely average on defense. They struggle defending on the perimeter, while being horrible from the perimeter on offense. When you are operating at a 12-15 deficit from 3 every game, you are going to have a difficult time winning games against good opponents. To cert:

Fresno State (L) -30
Grand Canyon (W) -21
Arizona (L) -12
Santa Clara (L) -18
CS Fullerton (W) +6
UVUU (W) -9
USD (L) -33

They don’t limit three point shots either. They are operating at a deficit every game, and some of that is to be expected as they are a post oriented offense.Yet they shoot at a lower percentage than their opponent while giving up a better percentage defensively. That just is a negative deficit that makes it hard to win games.

I have said rather consistently over the past three years, the women can return to the top of the conference if they can figure out the defensive end. I don’t know they have and while they might be a bit better offensively, they are going to keep struggling to get by opponents or putting them away with their struggles on the perimeter. Just an observation.

This is an excellent post, Grizfan-24, and reveals an important perspective re: basketball in general and the Montana GrizWBB in particular. I've always respected your objective & analytical perspective. I believe you've mentioned being a coach (h.s.?) and agree that no coach can be successful without analyzing stats and addressing said issues. (I was a Montana h.s. Class C coach for one season)

So let me add a caveat: Isolated statistics often do not tell the full story of game outcomes. A football example from last week's WSU win over Montana would suffice: The Griz statistically slammed the Wildcats all over the field... save for one stat, interceptions. In basketball, turnovers, assists and rebounds often neutralize ineficiencies on offense and defense. In Montana's three wins, a detailed shot chart illustrates precisely why Montana won (shots in paint). Lastly, it's often misleading to pore over stats without having actually watched a game (I do NOT write this as any kind of snark toward you). In two of Montana's wins, the change of game flow/momentum after Griz timeouts in the 3rd quarter determined the final outcome. What I am arguing is this: Montana fans here at eGriz can write whatever they want, but it's still important for those who call themselves Montana fans to actually watch those games. I am watching, and what I'm seeing is a Montana team with some defensive issues nonetheless improving in other aspects of their floor game. As a result, I have a sense of optimism regarding this team. Your general statement regarding inefficiencies on offense and defense is nonetheless very important... I agree. But this Montana team is making improvements in other aspects of their game that need to be examined before jumping to conclusions, as I have observed by watching every one of their games this season.

 

[Grizfan-24]

GJ,

Absolutely true about isolated statistics. For basketball in general, I am huge into efficiency. I think teams can out run it on a game to game basis, but generally you score easily or you don’t. Travis’s teams have excelled because they are so dang good at making teams inefficient on offense. His teams have never been that great on the offensive end, but they have been able to out run it by being superior on the defensive end. They are again carrying the water defensively.

Shannon’s teams over the past three plus years haven’t been that great offensively (injuries have played a large role) but they haven’t been that good defensively either. I had something written last year but didn’t post it, but none of her teams in 3 years had ranked in the upper half of the conference in defensive efficiency. Again a lot of that might be not having personnel to execute her defensive plan, but with deeper personnel this year than she’s had, they in the November-December schedule they are struggling to limit possessions defensively again.

Maybe Robin’s standard defensively is an impossible one to achieve. Having listened to him opine on defensive philosophies, he was as good as explaining it and teaching it as any guy I have been around. The only other guy that rivaled him was Bill Evans in those guys who I’ve listened to. I am honestly trying not to hold Shannon to that standard, but when you saw how good they were for decades defensively, sometimes the bias does come through.

Again it just frustrates me from time-to-time how sloppy they have been defensively over the past 3 plus years. They are more than good enough offensively this year to compete, and if they can figure out their defensive rotations this women’s team could be good. Just my opinion obviously and I am by no means a defensive expert, but they are just things I have picked up on.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Fair and balanced response, Grizfan-24. I respect your perspective. Meanwhile, I anticipate following both Montana hoops teams with an eye on how they hone efficiencies and build on style.

 

[Copper Griz]

GJ,

Absolutely true about isolated statistics. For basketball in general, I am huge into efficiency. I think teams can out run it on a game to game basis, but generally you score easily or you don’t. Travis’s teams have excelled because they are so dang good at making teams inefficient on offense. His teams have never been that great on the offensive end, but they have been able to out run it by being superior on the defensive end. They are again carrying the water defensively.

Shannon’s teams over the past three plus years haven’t been that great offensively (injuries have played a large role) but they haven’t been that good defensively either. I had something written last year but didn’t post it, but none of her teams in 3 years had ranked in the upper half of the conference in defensive efficiency. Again a lot of that might be not having personnel to execute her defensive plan, but with deeper personnel this year than she’s had, they in the November-December schedule they are struggling to limit possessions defensively again.

Maybe Robin’s standard defensively is an impossible one to achieve. Having listened to him opine on defensive philosophies, he was as good as explaining it and teaching it as any guy I have been around. The only other guy that rivaled him was Bill Evans in those guys who I’ve listened to. I am honestly trying not to hold Shannon to that standard, but when you saw how good they were for decades defensively, sometimes the bias does come through.

Again it just frustrates me from time-to-time how sloppy they have been defensively over the past 3 plus years. They are more than good enough offensively this year to compete, and if they can figure out their defensive rotations this women’s team could be good. Just my opinion obviously and I am by no means a defensive expert, but they are just things I have picked up on.

Serious question. Why would you not hold Shannon to the same defensive standard as Robin Selvig? How many years did she play for him and then coach under him. The expectation should be that she would not only be to that standard - but above it. She had the best training program one could imagine.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Copper,

Fair point. I think people should. After 3 years of running the program I think it is a fair expectation to have. They haven't been that good defensively. If Shannon's teams are going to make the leap forward, it is going to be on the defensive end and so far this year, I just haven't seen that improvement that I would expect. Don't know what is missing.

More it was to express really how great Robin was at teaching defense. Also it is in my limited experience as a high school coach, my area of expertise (not nearly as good as Robin or Bill Evans) and I was just trying to provide my bias.

I watch Travis's teams and I am constantly amazed how good they are in team defense. He's had some great individual defenders, but always impressed how he can get college guys to buy into something that is contrary to every philosophy they are taught until that point.

 

[Copper Griz]

Copper,

Fair point. I think people should. After 3 years of running the program I think it is a fair expectation to have. They haven't been that good defensively. If Shannon's teams are going to make the leap forward, it is going to be on the defensive end and so far this year, I just haven't seen that improvement that I would expect. Don't know what is missing.

More it was to express really how great Robin was at teaching defense. Also it is in my limited experience as a high school coach, my area of expertise (not nearly as good as Robin or Bill Evans) and I was just trying to provide my bias.

I watch Travis's teams and I am constantly amazed how good they are in team defense. He's had some great individual defenders, but always impressed how he can get college guys to buy into something that is contrary to every philosophy they are taught until that point.

Gotcha and my apologies if I misinterpreted your post. Completely agree on Travis. He gets it done!!