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KUDOS to Royce Engstrom
- Thread starter ALPHAGRIZ1
- Start date
robreimann
Active member
Really? Kudos to Royce, if he fired Robin and Jim due to the problems with the football players, why are the players still here? would it not make sense to also get rid of the problem players? I am a firm believer in the judicial system, not guilty till proven guilty, I am friends with several players and know that the staff had made some major changes recently. changes affecting how you would be handled if you had a run in with the law... the situation with Jordon happened before the change and did not come up till a short while after, due to a delay for some reason in the females reporting of the incident, as I read into other non athletic situations, I wonder, did Royce handle them correctly? well if letting the suspect out of the country is ok,well then, kudos to you Royce.....
goatcreekgriz
Well-known member
If UM pays what is owed for compensation through the end of the contract term (sounds like 6/30/12 for O'Day and 12/31/12 for Phlu) in a timely manner, I don't think cause is an issue especially if UM says nothing defamatory. This is not a typical employment situation that is open-ended. Each had a contract for a specific term, and both sides would need to agree to enter into another contract after it expired.
grizatwork said:AZGrizFan said:grizatwork said:
Engstrom and Pflu were hired about the same time.
True, but it appears as if Pflugrad did not do his due diligence about reporting certain incidents to his superiors. Same thing that go Paterno fired.
And what is your source for this accusation that Pflugrad did not do his due diligence about reporting to superior.
stubbins
Well-known member
Hammer said:
I know I'm going to get pummelled for this on here, but if engstrom doesn't have more, and the alleged criminals are found to be innocent.....what are the chances of these two men getting their jobs back?
1 in 100, 1 in 1000, or not until hell freezes over?
What a loser Alpha is. He anoints and support Pflu and JJ beyond belief for two years. Then when they get under fire, he disappears and provides no support. Then when Pflu gets fired, Alpha shows up to support Engstrom.
Again, what a loser. Is he going to cut and run on, and badmouth JJ, too?
Again, what a loser. Is he going to cut and run on, and badmouth JJ, too?
UMGriz75
Well-known member
I was a coach for 30 years. I always wondered how I was supposed to monitor student's social lives, judge them, judge their girlfriend's motives and still do my job (which was to coach, not follow my players around).Hammer said:
But, yah know, if the buck stops somewhere, why does it stop on certain desks with students who do sports, but on no desk with students who don't?
grizzlygame
New member
Pflu inherited problems cause by Hauck. Look at what happened after Hauck left Washington after being largely in control of recruiting. Engstrom was just appointed last year-- and he has obviously done something about this problem, but many of the problems started under Dennison. Don't forget about the real victims. Something needed to change, it's unfortunate that two individuals had to take the fall and lose their jobs-- but it's been a lingering problem.
I think the firings are BS. Its not like the Joe Paterno situation where he knew stuff was going on and didn't do anything about it. I believe Pflu had no idea about this stuff and has to be the fall guy. The ball players are ADULTS after all, and are responsible for their own decisions. Sad....
Further, if firing these two good men gets rid of the "problem" then I could support the firing. It is the "problem" I have a problem with. As with all employees a record of the boss giving reprimands must be in place or all supervisors would be mired down in losing lawsuits.
Perhaps bad behavior was documented and subsequent admonishment was provided. Perhaps indeed. We, the public may eventually find out. In the meantime this looks like a rush to judgement by Rolls Royice.
As always one must identify the problem. Only then can the problem be solved. The Griz players, the fans, the entire state of Montana should be notified of the "problem" Once it is/was clear about the "problem" then and only then can we feel the "problem" is/was solved!
Meanwhile many have lost sleep over this fiasco and the unknown lurks around all of us. All wondering if the "problem" is now solved. I suspect what the "problem" is but I am certain this will not solve the "problem" but that is the problem with the firing (rush to judgement) in my opinion!
As said many times, if a player is the "problem" get rid of the player. Now that would make sense.
Perhaps bad behavior was documented and subsequent admonishment was provided. Perhaps indeed. We, the public may eventually find out. In the meantime this looks like a rush to judgement by Rolls Royice.
As always one must identify the problem. Only then can the problem be solved. The Griz players, the fans, the entire state of Montana should be notified of the "problem" Once it is/was clear about the "problem" then and only then can we feel the "problem" is/was solved!
Meanwhile many have lost sleep over this fiasco and the unknown lurks around all of us. All wondering if the "problem" is now solved. I suspect what the "problem" is but I am certain this will not solve the "problem" but that is the problem with the firing (rush to judgement) in my opinion!
As said many times, if a player is the "problem" get rid of the player. Now that would make sense.
UMGriz75
Well-known member
Engstrom has mishandled a series of problems; ironically, the Saudi student was likely his biggest most public blunder -- some real stupid remarks on that -- but he has managed to turn a series of problems into an even bigger one.
Unfortunately, Engstrom chose to play the "PC" card, pretending to be make "bold decisions" of the kind he would not even think of if this was in an academic department (which it most frequently is in a population of 15,000 people between the ages of 18 and 25).
Sure, student-athletes are supposed to represent the school; but nobody has yet figured out a way to fundamentally change a 19 year old's behavior; nor that of his jealous girlfriend, nor that of a never-was girlfriend who decided to "get even." Student-athletes ARE in the public eye, and not everyone watching them and interacting with them has positive motives.
On the other hand, work hard/play hard combined with winning seasons and a level of immaturity -- these are, in many ways, still kids -- is going to lead to doing dumb things. Some of those things violate laws. Things that weren't that big a deal 50 years ago, are now considered major charges, such as DUIs or even a scuffle at a party. A lot of stuff that used to be considered part of "growing up," now has the "scarlet letter" of criminality attached to it by a lot of people that, frankly, have one attitude about it when it comes to sports and another attitude about it for anybody else.
Rape is a tough one. The better studies show that, on college campuses, false allegations are 40% or more of such reports. Good statistics are tough to come by because 1) "real" rapes are often unreported. It IS traumatic; 2) reported rapes do include those that are reported specifically for the reason of retaliation or retribution. It's the whole point. The "gray charges" are the ones that aren't reported officially, but the rumor circulates in certain social circles, and they are out there, the immature girl claiming offhand, "oh, he raped me." Several of the recent allegations were of that type; those have a high "failure" rate when they are investigated because they are usually, or at least often, "social retaliations" for some perceived, or real, social slight.
Ironically, the allegation against the Saudi student was explicit, he apparently was a "serial" offender, and the allegations entirely credible, but because of the serial nature and perhaps even because of cultural attitudes based on his perception of his victim's race or religion, particularly egregious. Unlike student-athletes, there really does appear to be a protected class of violent offenders at UM; and Engstrom was part of creating that perception.
The allegations against the student/athletes .... well, two observations: 1) the overt vagueness of the allegations, and 2) the character of the students involved. At one level, unlike the Saudi student, none of these allegations involved allegations of violence. The two I am specifically familiar with both involved relationships. The circumstances, at best, are complex. There are two sides to those stories, and neither occurred on campus or in the context of any athletic activity (team trips, locker room, etc). The University is not positioned to determine a truth there. Not so with the Saudi student; those did involve violence, they did involve the campus, and they did involve students under the direct authority of the University; but he's the only one who got a free pass courtesy of Engstrom.
Serious questions were raised about Engstrom's judgment on that whole episode, and there remains more to that episode than meets the eye. In that context, Engstrom appears to have been looking for scapegoats and to change to "meme," to get the spotlight on something else.
So, he fired two very positive individuals. That gets the spotlight off of him.
A more positive, proactive, and likely more effective approach would have been to sit down with O'Day, Pflu, and possibly Mark Muir, and develop a program, a strategy, and an implementation: what are the problems? Are they real? What CAN the University do about them? HOW can it do it? Roll out a plan, a public policy and GET THE TEAM ON BOARD. Those are good kids; they would have been the first to fall in line. Now, they are simply resentful. They are told to act like role models, and then are treated like political pawns for the Administration. The message Engstrom sends to the students and the UM community could not have been more cynical or negative.
O'Day and Pflu could have been, because they are well-liked and well-respected (and likely more so after Engstrom's bungling of the Saudi incident), exactly the kind of men who could lend great credibility to "solving the problem."
Engstrom didn't do that. This was all about Engstrom, not the "real problem" whatever that is. O'Day and Pflu are scapegoats.
Unfortunately, Engstrom chose to play the "PC" card, pretending to be make "bold decisions" of the kind he would not even think of if this was in an academic department (which it most frequently is in a population of 15,000 people between the ages of 18 and 25).
Sure, student-athletes are supposed to represent the school; but nobody has yet figured out a way to fundamentally change a 19 year old's behavior; nor that of his jealous girlfriend, nor that of a never-was girlfriend who decided to "get even." Student-athletes ARE in the public eye, and not everyone watching them and interacting with them has positive motives.
On the other hand, work hard/play hard combined with winning seasons and a level of immaturity -- these are, in many ways, still kids -- is going to lead to doing dumb things. Some of those things violate laws. Things that weren't that big a deal 50 years ago, are now considered major charges, such as DUIs or even a scuffle at a party. A lot of stuff that used to be considered part of "growing up," now has the "scarlet letter" of criminality attached to it by a lot of people that, frankly, have one attitude about it when it comes to sports and another attitude about it for anybody else.
Rape is a tough one. The better studies show that, on college campuses, false allegations are 40% or more of such reports. Good statistics are tough to come by because 1) "real" rapes are often unreported. It IS traumatic; 2) reported rapes do include those that are reported specifically for the reason of retaliation or retribution. It's the whole point. The "gray charges" are the ones that aren't reported officially, but the rumor circulates in certain social circles, and they are out there, the immature girl claiming offhand, "oh, he raped me." Several of the recent allegations were of that type; those have a high "failure" rate when they are investigated because they are usually, or at least often, "social retaliations" for some perceived, or real, social slight.
Ironically, the allegation against the Saudi student was explicit, he apparently was a "serial" offender, and the allegations entirely credible, but because of the serial nature and perhaps even because of cultural attitudes based on his perception of his victim's race or religion, particularly egregious. Unlike student-athletes, there really does appear to be a protected class of violent offenders at UM; and Engstrom was part of creating that perception.
The allegations against the student/athletes .... well, two observations: 1) the overt vagueness of the allegations, and 2) the character of the students involved. At one level, unlike the Saudi student, none of these allegations involved allegations of violence. The two I am specifically familiar with both involved relationships. The circumstances, at best, are complex. There are two sides to those stories, and neither occurred on campus or in the context of any athletic activity (team trips, locker room, etc). The University is not positioned to determine a truth there. Not so with the Saudi student; those did involve violence, they did involve the campus, and they did involve students under the direct authority of the University; but he's the only one who got a free pass courtesy of Engstrom.
Serious questions were raised about Engstrom's judgment on that whole episode, and there remains more to that episode than meets the eye. In that context, Engstrom appears to have been looking for scapegoats and to change to "meme," to get the spotlight on something else.
So, he fired two very positive individuals. That gets the spotlight off of him.
A more positive, proactive, and likely more effective approach would have been to sit down with O'Day, Pflu, and possibly Mark Muir, and develop a program, a strategy, and an implementation: what are the problems? Are they real? What CAN the University do about them? HOW can it do it? Roll out a plan, a public policy and GET THE TEAM ON BOARD. Those are good kids; they would have been the first to fall in line. Now, they are simply resentful. They are told to act like role models, and then are treated like political pawns for the Administration. The message Engstrom sends to the students and the UM community could not have been more cynical or negative.
O'Day and Pflu could have been, because they are well-liked and well-respected (and likely more so after Engstrom's bungling of the Saudi incident), exactly the kind of men who could lend great credibility to "solving the problem."
Engstrom didn't do that. This was all about Engstrom, not the "real problem" whatever that is. O'Day and Pflu are scapegoats.
Its been in decline here since the handling of a certain drunken brawl involving a BB coach who was also cited for DUI in Helena.
Frankly whether the two incidents involving multiple players were a Gang Rape or Gang bang is of little incidence. Same with the tasing incidence. The Honor codes used to reformulate our Student athlete code from a number schools would have had pretty significant consequences for atheletes being at those "partys"
I have a problem with "well it appears a number of our Boys (5 wasn't it on two seperate cases) took turns with girl but seeing as no laws were broken and no one was convicted of anything, there is nothing I can/will do"
I'm sure we can all be proud of that reputation for our program. Somehow its rather sickening (to me) that we defend coaches, players and AD's on the lowest possible standard not something a bit higher.
As far as the handling of it, I'm not sure there is any pretty way of doing it.
Frankly whether the two incidents involving multiple players were a Gang Rape or Gang bang is of little incidence. Same with the tasing incidence. The Honor codes used to reformulate our Student athlete code from a number schools would have had pretty significant consequences for atheletes being at those "partys"
I have a problem with "well it appears a number of our Boys (5 wasn't it on two seperate cases) took turns with girl but seeing as no laws were broken and no one was convicted of anything, there is nothing I can/will do"
I'm sure we can all be proud of that reputation for our program. Somehow its rather sickening (to me) that we defend coaches, players and AD's on the lowest possible standard not something a bit higher.
As far as the handling of it, I'm not sure there is any pretty way of doing it.
granitegriz
Well-known member
+1 UMGriz75...try speaking in fact tnt not hearsay. That is why the problem in leadership
goes all the way to the top, including the president and regents.
goes all the way to the top, including the president and regents.
PlayerRep said:
You don't get it, do you? Alpha supported Pflu AS A COACH. That does not mean that he supported Pflu's lack of discipline, or the way he handled these criminal situations. Alpha consistently took a tough stance on
holding players accountable for their actions, just as I did. He is not two-faced on Pflu. He has just had enough, as many Griz fans have had enough.
It is YOU who should slink away and dissappear, after continually making excuses for player's criminal actions!
Blgs Griz Fan
Well-known member
Growler... team discipline on and off the field is as much a duty of the coach as is play calling. Pflu failed to discipline his team any where near what the previous coach(s) did and as such they had problems off the field.
