Krakauer getting defensive?

[UMGriz75]

Why don't you write a book, Mr. Dove? That way you can expound upon your narrative to your heart's content, and anyone who's interested can buy a copy and read it with a flashlight under his bed sheet. And enrollment will go back up, and Engstrom will be fired, and a statue of JJ will be erected on the courthouse lawn, and all of your other fantasies will come true.

I ain't an apologist - I'm just bored with it, and a little creeped out. Sorry.

I enjoy hyperbole as much as the next guy. It adds so much. Even if it is creepy in its own right. Thanks for diverting a discussion of facts to personal comments. It is, as always, much appreciated. It obviously makes you feel good.

 

[getgrizzy]

Why don't you write a book, Mr. Dove? That way you can expound upon your narrative to your heart's content, and anyone who's interested can buy a copy and read it with a flashlight under his bed sheet. And enrollment will go back up, and Engstrom will be fired, and a statue of JJ will be erected on the courthouse lawn, and all of your other fantasies will come true.

I ain't an apologist - I'm just bored with it, and a little creeped out. Sorry.

I enjoy hyperbole as much as the next guy. It adds so much. Even if it is creepy in its own right. Thanks for diverting a discussion of facts to personal comments. It is, as always, much appreciated. It obviously makes you feel good.

He learned it (or at least polished his game) from you.

 

[UMGriz75]

PR and 75 are great entertainment. But I agree with Everett that their stances on this are embarrassing to our supporters everywhere. They don't seem to understand that people can observe the same set of information and come to varying conclusions.

That's the problem isn't it? People aren't "observing the same set of information." You have been shown to frame this in terms of "sets of information" that didn't happen and didn't exist, because that was necessary for you to arrive at a predetermined conclusion.

It is what the Missoulian did and does, and what Krakauer did and says he wants to do more of.

If "supporters" believe that is good and useful, then you are a "supporter" of nothing.

 

[UMGriz75]

He learned it (or at least polished his game) from you.

Are you implying he is incapable of independent thought or integrity?

Or are you projecting again?

 

[statler & waldorf]

Someone making ANY OF YOU read anything posted on eGriz?

 

[UMGriz75]

I ain't an apologist - I'm just bored with it, and a little creeped out. Sorry.

"Sorry" as though anyone cares that you are "bored?"

Do you regularly post to forums about lists of things that "bore" you? There is a remedy. Figure it out.

 

[Grisly Fan]

I suppose I am in the minority but if the participants in a sex act are consenting adults then WHAT'S THE HARM? Despite puritanical beliefs, women can enjoy it too. (GASP!) I find it ironic that women have fought so hard, and rightfully so, to have equal status with men but when they "act like men", i.e. enjoy sex, even other self-described liberated women try hard to shove them back into the past. No, sex is dirty! Sex is dangerous for all involved! Hell fires await... (apparently)

If I had found that my daughter had consented to such a thing I would only be worried that she had protected herself against STDs. I suppose that makes me a bad father. So be it.

 

[argh!]

The BAC confirms that she did go to the ER later in the evening, and that the complaint was for alcohol poisoning. I have not been able to find that there was any complaint of "rape" while at the ER that night. It is also suggestive that the BAC had maxed by the time she was tested,

aren't these all just conjecture? do you have access to her health records? and how in the world was her bac "suggestive" that she had maxed by the time she was tested? do you know how much food was in her stomach when she ingested the alcohol, when she ingested it, and what her personal alcohol dehydrogenase levels/activity are? also, alcohol rapidly compartmentalizes to the brain, with blood stream values lagging behind. i'm pretty sure that's the organ in charge of 'judgement' and the ability to give consent. without significantly more information regarding stomach contents, individual metabolism, the number of drinks/hour prior to the incident, etc, not many judgments (for her case or against) can be made other than that she drank a lot. as for the gang bang, if that is what consenting adults want to do, none of us should care. obviously, the question of whether she consented or not is muddled, but i haven't read a strong arguments either way here in the legal proceedings of egriz.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

There is a remedy. Figure it out.

Right back atcha, big boy.

 

[UMGriz75]

If I had found that my daughter had consented to such a thing ....

That was the problem here. Somebody "found out," and then her adventure became a different kind of a problem which the Missoulian then blasts across its front page last week explaining that the "real problem" is that Kirsten Pabst didn't believe her without any effort to suggest "why" Kirsten Pabst didn't believe her.

And, why is that being given front page headlines, now, four year later?

Shouldn't they be "bored?"

No. Athletes. Football. They explained.

 

[UMGriz75]

There is a remedy. Figure it out.

Right back atcha, big boy.

I have no remedy for your "boredom." You are on your own. You are obviously not "bored" enough, although it is a passable PeeWee Herman imitation.

 

[UMGriz75]

The BAC confirms that she did go to the ER later in the evening, and that the complaint was for alcohol poisoning. I have not been able to find that there was any complaint of "rape" while at the ER that night. It is also suggestive that the BAC had maxed by the time she was tested,

aren't these all just conjecture? do you have access to her health records? and how in the world was her bac "suggestive" that she had maxed by the time she was tested?

Because there is a lethal dose and if her BAC had been much higher much earlier than her ER visit, she likely would have been close to or past it -- i.e. no ER visit.

The value of personal responsibility for young men and young women lies in not getting yourself intoxicated as fast as you can, just before the company arrives, and then trying to blame everyone under the sun when the boyfriend finds out.

And the local paper attempting to keep some "controversy" about it alive years later.

 

[tnt]

There things are many to question in this whole mess. This situation is not even worth considering in a broader discussion. I would think if I am saying so, it prolly is true.

 

[PlayerRep]

Good God, pr. Your continued defense of the defenseless actions of those players is reprehensible. Was it crime? Who knows. And frankly, who cares. What they did was wrong. And if you cannot admit that, seek counseling.

And great post AWF.

Good god, Everett. Can you not read? This is what I posted a few posts above you post. "
I agree with your 3d paragraph. Horrible decision by the guys."

Well, the police, county attorneys office, I think the AG, and multiple lawyers posting on the internet, don't believe it rose to the level of a crime. So, your "who knows" comment is really just plain stupid. Many people know, including those who did the investigation.

 

[argh!]

The BAC confirms that she did go to the ER later in the evening, and that the complaint was for alcohol poisoning. I have not been able to find that there was any complaint of "rape" while at the ER that night. It is also suggestive that the BAC had maxed by the time she was tested,

aren't these all just conjecture? do you have access to her health records? and how in the world was her bac "suggestive" that she had maxed by the time she was tested?

Because there is a lethal dose and if her BAC had been much higher much earlier than her ER visit, she likely would have been close to or past it -- i.e. no ER visit.

.

without knowing her alcohol intake history and tolerance level, whether that is close to a lethal dose for her is impossible to say. i certainly don't think it supports your conjecture regarding her having 'maxed out' at the time of testing.

 

[UMGriz75]

without knowing her alcohol intake history and tolerance level, whether that is close to a lethal dose for her is impossible to say. i certainly don't think it supports your conjecture regarding her having 'maxed out' at the time of testing.

Here's what conjecture actually looks like, complete with both legal and medical conclusions, authoritatively stated, from the Missoulian reporter:

“Belnap’s blood-alcohol content,taken at Community Medical Center two hours after the incident, was 0.219, clearly rendering her unable to give consent to the four men.

Get it?

 

[PlayerRep]

PR and 75 are great entertainment. But I agree with Everett that their stances on this are embarrassing to our supporters everywhere. They don't seem to understand that people can observe the same set of information and come to varying conclusions.

My concern has shifted to what the NCAA will do if it's found that the guilty verdict from the U court was overturned improperly? Will we be sanctioned again if JJ was participating in games when he should've been expelled?

Nope. Every prosecutor who looked at all of the evidence concluded that there was no probable cause, and thus no crime. The NCAA will have zero to do with the JJ/UM matter. The NCAA never looked at sexual assault or criminal stuff in their investigation. I hope the MT Higher Education report is eventually made public. It will show how bad the Dean's investigation and proceeding was (just as the federal judge concluded), how the UM had no right or ability to apply the lower standard after-the-fact, and how much potential liability UM had (and probably still has) for it's very flawed process.

 

[argh!]

without knowing her alcohol intake history and tolerance level, whether that is close to a lethal dose for her is impossible to say. i certainly don't think it supports your conjecture regarding her having 'maxed out' at the time of testing.

Here's what conjecture looks like, complete with both legal and medical conclusions, from from the Missoulian reporter:

“Belnap’s blood-alcohol content,taken at Community Medical Center two hours after the incident, was 0.219, clearly rendering her unable to give consent to the four men.

Get it?

and ld50 discussion is not the same as an lc50 discussion. i thought we were having the former? all i was saying was we don't have enough information to support your conjecture.

 

[getgrizzy]

PR and 75 are great entertainment. But I agree with Everett that their stances on this are embarrassing to our supporters everywhere. They don't seem to understand that people can observe the same set of information and come to varying conclusions.

My concern has shifted to what the NCAA will do if it's found that the guilty verdict from the U court was overturned improperly? Will we be sanctioned again if JJ was participating in games when he should've been expelled?

Nope. Every prosecutor who looked at all of the evidence concluded that there was no probable cause, and thus no crime. The NCAA will have zero to do with the JJ/UM matter. The NCAA never looked at sexual assault or criminal stuff in their investigation. I hope the MT Higher Education report is eventually made public. It will show how bad the Dean's investigation and proceeding was (just as the federal judge concluded), how the UM had no right or ability to apply the lower standard after-the-fact, and how much potential liability UM had (and probably still has) for it's very flawed process.

It wasn't a ruling on what constitutes rape, but a ruling on how sure the university court has to be that a rape occurred. They couldn't start a trial and then change that policy, but they could use the DOE policy for any pending trials, regardless of when the crime was committed.

 

[UMGriz75]

without knowing her alcohol intake history and tolerance level, whether that is close to a lethal dose for her is impossible to say. i certainly don't think it supports your conjecture regarding her having 'maxed out' at the time of testing.

Here's what conjecture looks like, complete with both legal and medical conclusions, from from the Missoulian reporter:

“Belnap’s blood-alcohol content,taken at Community Medical Center two hours after the incident, was 0.219, clearly rendering her unable to give consent to the four men.

Get it?

and ld50 discussion is not the same as an lc50 discussion. i thought we were having the former? all i was saying was we don't have enough information to support your conjecture.

You don't have any idea what you are discussing.

My understanding also is that she voluntarily downed a number of jello shots in rapid succession just before the activities. She was "looking to party." However, BAC is not an measure of consumption, it is a measure of absorption.

"For normal social-type drinking, the highest BAC is usually achieved within 30 minutes after completion of consumption, though it could take as long as 60 minutes. When large amounts of alcohol are consumed over a short time interval, ... the absorption phase may not be complete for up to two (2) hours after last consumption."

That is consistent with the testimony that well into the "activities" she did in fact begin slurring and finally did pass out. It is also consistent with her admission that, at the time, the guys likely could not have known she "was not consenting," aside from the fact that she offered every indication that she was consenting. There was a point at which she clearly could not. The absorption curve suggests that was later, not sooner. It was also over at that point.

The BAC confirms that she did go to the ER later in the evening, and that the complaint was for alcohol poisoning. ... suggestive that the BAC had maxed by the time she was tested, but offers nothing at all about what her BAC might have been at the time of the "incident."

You are claiming that my assertion that the Missoulian could not in fact state what the BAC was at the time of the "incident" -- two hours before -- and therefore her ability to "consent" is conjecture?

Are you for real?