Krakaeur's book "Missoula" to be released April 21

[AllWeatherFan]

I will be tracking book sales in Bozeman and Cheney.

This is a little disingenuous.

It was a joke, Jerry.

In terms of what you referred to as the "sham process UM puts its student athletes through when they are accused of some criminal infraction," please tell us exactly what process you'd use if you were the president of the university. Also, since we're talking about accusations of "criminal infractions," please explain exactly how your process would involve (or not involve) law enforcement. In particular, please explain how the "Jerry Punch process" would include a complete investigation (in what could be very complicated and expensive cases involving DNA or other analysis), yet still ensure adequate due process for the accused.

Thanks.

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

The problem with the media's narrative of these rapes was the focus on the football team. This was about the University administration and the city police being incompetent, but that gets glossed over because they deflected the attention to the football team and cried 'special treatment'. I'm betting no where in that book does it talk about the Saudi kid who raped a girl and got tipped off by the UofM and fled the country - btw he wasn't on the football team. Or the myriad of other rape cases that were not connected to the football team in anyway. He is diminishing the problem by focusing the attention on only football players, and dismissing the countless victims that aren't lucky enough (intense sarcasm here) to be raped by football players, they also were let down by the incompetence of the UofM. But I guess a story about incompetence isn't as interesting as one about favoritism. And that was the real tragedy, that this administration was able to distract everyone from their negligence by throwing the football team out there as tasty morsel for the media and the politicos to feast upon.

Im surprised the cover wasn't just a picture of a Griz football helmet!

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

At least hes finished this story so he can get started on his upcoming best seller...

Why My Eyes are So Wide...A Douchebags Tale. Already got the cover ready.

 

[big kahuna]

Say what you will about Krakaeur, but he is a hell of a writer and reporter and a 500,000 print order is no joke. Regardless of whether you eventually come to believe that this book fair, there is no way this ends well for Missoula or UM.

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

Say what you will about Krakaeur, but he is a hell of a writer and reporter and a 500,000 print order is no joke. Regardless of whether you eventually come to believe that this book fair, there is no way this ends well for Missoula or UM.

Ya no matter how this book turns out, the griz will still beat your cats by 30 in the brawl annually.

 

[SouthDakotaGrizzly]

The problem with the media's narrative of these rapes was the focus on the football team. This was about the University administration and the city police being incompetence, but that gets glossed over because they deflected the attention to the football team and cried 'special treatment'. I'm betting no where in that book does it talk about the Saudi kid who raped a girl and got tipped off by the UofM and fled the country - btw he wasn't on the football team. Or the myriad of other rape cases that were not connected to the football team in anyway. He is diminishing the problem by focusing the attention on only football players, and dismissing the countless victims that aren't lucky enough (intense sarcasm here) to be raped by football players, they also were let down by the incompetence of the UofM. But I guess a story about incompetence isn't as interesting as one about favoritism. And that was the real tragedy, that this administration was able to distract everyone from their negligence by throwing the football team out there as tasty morsel for the media and the politicos to feast upon.

Could not agree more. :thumb:

Exactly. After UM and the city bungled so many rape cases that had nothing to do with the football team (sure, some did, Beau Donaldson for one, but many did not), they saw a golden opportunity to make an example out of the star QB. Problem was, they didn't have a case and their chance at redemption blew up in their faces.

I wonder if Krakauer spoke to Engstrom for this book, and what, if any, hard questions he had for him?

 

[CV Griz Fan]

You guys can argue about lawsuits all you want. But let's all give a "shout out" to 420 for his levity with his choice of GIFS.

 

[Jerry Punch]

I will be tracking book sales in Bozeman and Cheney.

This is a little disingenuous.

It was a joke, Jerry.

In terms of what you referred to as the "sham process UM puts its student athletes through when they are accused of some criminal infraction," please tell us exactly what process you'd use if you were the president of the university. Also, since we're talking about accusations of "criminal infractions," please explain exactly how your process would involve (or not involve) law enforcement. In particular, please explain how the "Jerry Punch process" would include a complete investigation (in what could be very complicated and expensive cases involving DNA or other analysis), yet still ensure adequate due process for the accused.

Thanks.

Here's the thing: I believe that Jordy's case was unfairly handled by the University. I'm sorry that I don't have a specific procedure to propose (I don't get paid to do that job), but I do know that whatever procedure they had in place in 2012 resulted in widely different outcomes for different students. I think many assume, perhaps correctly, that the University rail-roaded Jordy to prove a point - that it took sex crimes committed by its students seriously. I still question whether or not that process taught them anything at all. I would hope to see more information on how that process unfolded with Jordy's case and would not be surprised to see that he wasn't exactly afforded full due process.

I do hope, however, that the story of the prosecutor turned defense attorney turned county attorney is discussed because the citizens of Missoula deserve to have that story exposed.

 

[PlayerRep]

I will be tracking book sales in Bozeman and Cheney.

This is a little disingenuous.

It was a joke, Jerry.

In terms of what you referred to as the "sham process UM puts its student athletes through when they are accused of some criminal infraction," please tell us exactly what process you'd use if you were the president of the university. Also, since we're talking about accusations of "criminal infractions," please explain exactly how your process would involve (or not involve) law enforcement. In particular, please explain how the "Jerry Punch process" would include a complete investigation (in what could be very complicated and expensive cases involving DNA or other analysis), yet still ensure adequate due process for the accused.

Thanks.

Here's the thing: I believe that Jordy's case was unfairly handled by the University. I'm sorry that I don't have a specific procedure to propose (I don't get paid to do that job), but I do know that whatever procedure they had in place in 2012 resulted in widely different outcomes for different students. I think many assume, perhaps correctly, that the University rail-roaded Jordy to prove a point - that it took sex crimes committed by its students seriously. I still question whether or not that process taught them anything at all. I would hope to see more information on how that process unfolded with Jordy's case and would not be surprised to see that he wasn't exactly afforded full due process.

I do hope, however, that the story of the prosecutor turned defense attorney turned county attorney is discussed because the citizens of Missoula deserve to have that story exposed.

I'll give Punch some help in addressing AllWeather's comments. If I were the president, I would not have had an over 65 year old dean, who must have been well past his prime, conducting sexual assault investigations. To my knowledge, the dean had little or no expertise or training conducting investigations. Note that this is the dean who goofed up the Saudi student investigation/matter, and retired shortly after this all occurred. This is the dean who drew the following comment from the federal judge in JJ's attempt to stop the university proceeding: the process “offends the court’s sense of fundamental fairness and appears to fall short of the minimal moral obligation of any tribunal to respect the rights and dignity of the accused.” This is the dean who walked into the JJ university hearing with his arm around the accuser (so much for an impartial hearing in front of the panel that was watching).

In addition, I would not allow the dean and the university to apply the lower preponderance standard, as opposed to the higher clear and convincing standard, when the incident had occurred and proceeding started in early to mid Feb.--and the university hadn't officially adopted the new standard until March 31 of that year. Also, the university policy in the place until March 31 didn't apply to off-campus incidents. Lastly, the dean/university provided the old policy to JJ in the process, even after the new policy had been adopted, I believe. Talk about incompetence.

AllWeather, why do you think UM didn't expel JJ after the university proceeding and after he had been charged by the county? Did it ever occur to you that higher-ups at MT Higher Education had by then looked at the university process, and realized that Paoli and the federal judge were correct in asserting that the process had been flawed, unfair and in fact essentially a sham (and might result in significant exposure for the university)?

 

[PlayerRep]

I will be tracking book sales in Bozeman and Cheney.

This is a little disingenuous. For me, the book won't add anything to what is already settled by the jury trial, acquitting Jordan Johnson of the offense of rape. That factual dispute is no longer in question.

It is my hope that the book shines some light on the sham process UM puts its student athletes through when they are accused of some criminal infraction. Jordy has nothing left to prove or disprove, but maybe there will be additional information further vindicating him in that process. That being said, I am particularly interested in this tid bit:

"In two cases the police agreed to press charges and the district attorney agreed to prosecute. One case led to a conviction; one to an acquittal. Those women courageous enough to press charges or to speak publicly about their experiences were attacked in the media, on Grizzly football fan sites, and/or to their faces. The university expelled three of the accused rapists, but one was reinstated by state officials in a secret proceeding. One district attorney testified for an alleged rapist at his university hearing. She later left the prosecutor’s office and successfully defended the Grizzlies’ star quarterback in his rape trial."

That prosecutor now has the top job at an office she was critical of for failing to take seriously sex crimes. The great irony is that she had the 2nd highest position in that office shortly before embarking on this journey of flip flopping. Everyone deserves the right to a fair trial, and to be adequately represented. I hope that this book at least addresses what should be some real concerns for the citizens and voters of Missoula County about their top law enforcement official.

Where did the asst prosecutor ever say that she was "critical of the office for failing to take seriously sex crimes"? I never saw or heard that. I don't think she agreed completely with how the County Atty handled the DOJ attempt at an investigation, but I don't recall the other stuff you said.

 

[PlayerRep]

I will be tracking book sales in Bozeman and Cheney.

This is a little disingenuous.

It was a joke, Jerry.

In terms of what you referred to as the "sham process UM puts its student athletes through when they are accused of some criminal infraction," please tell us exactly what process you'd use if you were the president of the university. Also, since we're talking about accusations of "criminal infractions," please explain exactly how your process would involve (or not involve) law enforcement. In particular, please explain how the "Jerry Punch process" would include a complete investigation (in what could be very complicated and expensive cases involving DNA or other analysis), yet still ensure adequate due process for the accused.

Thanks.

Here's the thing: I believe that Jordy's case was unfairly handled by the University. I'm sorry that I don't have a specific procedure to propose (I don't get paid to do that job), but I do know that whatever procedure they had in place in 2012 resulted in widely different outcomes for different students. I think many assume, perhaps correctly, that the University rail-roaded Jordy to prove a point - that it took sex crimes committed by its students seriously. I still question whether or not that process taught them anything at all. I would hope to see more information on how that process unfolded with Jordy's case and would not be surprised to see that he wasn't exactly afforded full due process.

I do hope, however, that the story of the prosecutor turned defense attorney turned county attorney is discussed because the citizens of Missoula deserve to have that story exposed.

The stuff in your last paragraph came up during the campaign. There was nothing there. She left the CA office for private practice. She later got hired by Paoli/JJ. She did a good job in that case. There's nothing to be exposed.

 

[firmgriz]

Looks like a whole lot of "trying to make facts fit a story" rather than the other way around. Old news, and very little of it. I for one will be foregoing this retread, and that's too bad because I generally like JK's work.

 

[griz8791]

In Helena, Leo Gallagher was the chief deputy county attorney. Then he was a public defender. Then he successfully ran for county attorney.

In Great Falls, Julie Macek was with the public defender's office. Then she was the chief deputy county attorney. Then she successfully ran for district judge.

I don't get why anyone would think there is something shady about broad experience.

 

[firmgriz]

Because he's a cat fan

 

[Buttegrizzle]

Meh, JK is a good writer but his sensational subject matter got old with Into the Woods. Now he has covered all manor of grisly death, suicide, and etc. I guess rape is all that is left to draw attention.

 

[UMGriz75]

Have to wait for the book, but subsequent filings of federal cases for lack of due process for the accused in these matters is being treated by the Courts as a Title IX violation.

By 2014, OCR was investigating 90 colleges for possible Title IX violations in their handling of sexual assault complaints. Campuses were in full panic mode—with calls for censorship and trigger warnings for sensitive material. At last count, 56 young men found responsible for sexual misconduct were suing their schools, alleging that they were denied due process and fair treatment in star chamber proceedings.

When Rolling Stone published its apocryphal article about a sadistic and premeditated fraternity gang rape at the University of Virginia, many who should have known better took it seriously. It was a Gothic fantasy nurtured by specious statistics, poorly designed studies, and panic. The writers and editors at Rolling Stone are to blame for publishing the story. But it was the investigative journalists at NPR and the Center for Public Integrity who made it all seem real.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... worse.html

57 lawsuits and counting by young men against Universities based on the lower standard of proof approved by our own Engstrom by putting his signature to a document he later admitted he had not read violating the rights of the students he ostensibly was hired to protect.

http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/li" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-assault/

Reading Judge Christensen's advisory opinion on the matter, somebody in the State Government recognized that the University had so badly botched the whole proceeding, that the only way out was to simply wait for and follow the jury verdict via a system that did incorporate recognized due process.

It was the smartest thing that happened in this whole fiasco.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

AllWeather, why do you think UM didn't expel JJ after the university proceeding and after he had been charged by the county? Did it ever occur to you that higher-ups at MT Higher Education had by then looked at the university process, and realized that Paoli and the federal judge were correct in asserting that the process had been flawed, unfair and in fact essentially a sham (and might result in significant exposure for the university)?

I have no idea what you're blathering on about.

In my opinion, the University of Montana should have deferred this matter entirely to the criminal justice system where it belongs. Colleges and universities are not equipped to "prosecute" felony charges.

Any other questions?

 

[LongTimeCatFan]

I won't be wasting my time or my dime on this book because I don't think anything good can come of it.

 

[srgrizizen]

This smells like a largely one-sided, unbalanced and biased book. Cherry-picking of everything supportive of his view/bias/agenda. Omission of other things, like the statement of the federal judge about the UM proceeding offending anyone's sense of fairness. Interviews of accusers who didn't like the process or didn't get their way, and perhaps others who also didn't like something. No interviews of people on the other side of the contacts with investigators, and no way for them to defend the situations/allegations anyway. Interviews of supporters/enablers (see JJ situation). Cherry-picking of Bartz reports, DOJ letter (which was not based on a full investigation, as they weren't given the county attorney's file), and Missoulian and other articles. No interviews, and perhaps no attempt to interview, anyone on the other side or with a different view. I can't imagine that any of them would talk to Krakauer in a situation like this, even if contacted. No mention that apparently every athlete who fought the university proceedings with a lawyer was ultimately not thrown out of school. Lots of innuendo thrown in. I suppose there will be new information from accusers whom he interviewed. I wonder how many of their names will be used. Maybe Krakauer will be more balanced, but nothing in his blurb seems to indicate that.

While UM and Missoula probably don't need any more press on this subject and time-period, I think a truly balanced book, with input from all sides and based on facts (as much as possible), would be interesting to read.

Boy, I wish I could tell what's in a book before it's published by somehow figuring out what it "smells like." What a time saver.

 

[PlayerRep]

AllWeather, why do you think UM didn't expel JJ after the university proceeding and after he had been charged by the county? Did it ever occur to you that higher-ups at MT Higher Education had by then looked at the university process, and realized that Paoli and the federal judge were correct in asserting that the process had been flawed, unfair and in fact essentially a sham (and might result in significant exposure for the university)?

I have no idea what you're blathering on about.

In my opinion, the University of Montana should have deferred this matter entirely to the criminal justice system where it belongs. Colleges and universities are not equipped to "prosecute" felony charges.

Any other questions?

Yes, here's another question. Are you not aware that federal law, via the Dear Colleague letter from the Asst Secretary-Office of Civil Rights of the federal gov't, requires universities to proceed without regard to the criminal justice system. It specifically says that universities may not wait for the criminal justice system. Here's a question from the related Q&A. See bullets 1 and 2.

"What are a school’s obligations under Title IX regarding sexual violence?

•Once a school knows or reasonably should know of possible sexual violence, it must take immediate and appropriate action to investigate or otherwise determine what occurred.
•If sexual violence has occurred, a school must take prompt and effective steps to end the sexual violence, prevent its recurrence, and address its effects, whether or not the sexual violence is the subject of a criminal investigation.
•A school must take steps to protect the complainant as necessary, including interim steps taken prior to the final outcome of the investigation.
•A school must provide a grievance procedure for students to file complaints of sex discrimination, including complaints of sexual violence. These procedures must include an equal opportunity for both parties to present witnesses and other evidence and the same appeal rights.
•A school’s grievance procedures must use the preponderance of the evidence standard to resolve complaints of sex discrimination."

From the actual DC letter:

"Schools should not wait for the conclusion of a criminal investigation or criminal proceeding to begin their own Title IX investigation and, if needed, must take immediate steps to protect the student in the educational setting. For example, a school should not delay conducting its own investigation or taking steps to protect the complainant because it wants to see whether the alleged perpetrator will be found guilty of a crime."