Josh Bannan - All Big Sky?

[GRIZ PHAN]

I checked the conference only statistics. Through 18 games Josh is 6th in Scoring at 17.1; 4th in Rebounding at 7.8; 2nd in Field Goals at .529%; 13th in Free Throws at .760%; 11th in Blocked Shots at 0.7; 14th in Minutes at 33.5, the most for any Griz.

Based on those stats he should be a lock for Honorable Mention. One would hope, but who knows. I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit.

What All Big Sky team (First, Second or HM) should Josh be on? Will upperclassmen that did not perform as well be placed on team above the sophomore?

 

[GrizBall]

I checked the conference only statistics. Through 18 games Josh is 6th in Scoring at 17.1; 4th in Rebounding at 7.8; 2nd in Field Goals at .529%; 13th in Free Throws at .760%; 11th in Blocked Shots at 0.7; 14th in Minutes at 33.5, the most for any Griz.

Based on those stats he should be a lock for Honorable Mention. One would hope, but who knows. I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit.

What All Big Sky team (First, Second or HM) should Josh be on? Will upperclassmen that did not perform as well be placed on team above the sophomore?

My opinion is that there are 4 locks for 1st team. McEwen, Belo, Kountz and Knight. The 5th spot will be between Dillon Jones, Bannan and Bishop. Part of it is based on where the teams finish. I think Bannan would have a better chance if the Griz can finish 4th or better. I feel he is a lock for 2nd team at a minimum.

I also think Beasley and Whitney will be at least be HM with one of them possibly being 3rd team. Parker has a shot at 6th man of the year.

 

[UncleRico]

I checked the conference only statistics. Through 18 games Josh is 6th in Scoring at 17.1; 4th in Rebounding at 7.8; 2nd in Field Goals at .529%; 13th in Free Throws at .760%; 11th in Blocked Shots at 0.7; 14th in Minutes at 33.5, the most for any Griz.

Based on those stats he should be a lock for Honorable Mention. One would hope, but who knows. I am being a bit facetious, but only a bit.

What All Big Sky team (First, Second or HM) should Josh be on? Will upperclassmen that did not perform as well be placed on team above the sophomore?

My opinion is that there are 4 locks for 1st team. McEwen, Belo, Kountz and Knight. The 5th spot will be between Dillon Jones, Bannan and Bishop. Part of it is based on where the teams finish. I think Bannan would have a better chance if the Griz can finish 4th or better. I feel he is a lock for 2nd team at a minimum.

I also think Beasley and Whitney will be at least be HM with one of them possibly being 3rd team. Parker has a shot at 6th man of the year.

I think Whitney should have a shot for defensive player of the year also.

 

[GrizBall]

I think Whitney should have a shot for defensive player of the year also.
[/quote]

I hope so, but I think it is a tough climb. Generally the DPOY does well in the only stats that are measurable to defense (blocks and steals). On the season, Whitney is averaging 1.1 steals a game (tied for 14th) and 0.2 blocks. Currently Khalid Thomas is tied for 6th in blocks and 3rd in steals. Knight leads the league in steals and is also 15th in blocks. Thomas is also very versatile with the ability to guard 1-4. Last year's DPOY Kim Aiken was 7th in blocks and 8th in steals. And at 6'7 he could also guard 1-4.

Jonah Radenbaugh would be the most compelling comp to Whitney winning, but he had pretty good steal stats and both years that he won, UNC finished one game out of 1st place.

Whitney is an excellent defender and does extremely well in the Griz defensive system, which in fairness to him seems to value being in position and not gambling on steals and blocks. In another system Whitney would likely have more steals, which would boost his case.

 

[Hoops watcher]

Should be second team, but we've seen this movie before so who knows.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Right now in regards to advanced metrics:

Josh Bannan is:
- 3rd in PER
-6th in OWS (Offensive Win Shares)
- 2nd in DWS (Defensive Win Shares)
-3rd in WS (Win Shares)
- 16th in ORating
-5th in D Rating
- 3rd in Floor Impact (FIC)
- 6th in Rebounding
- 8th in Points

He's a first team player if you look at advanced metrics. He's a first team player when you look at everything else. I don't think he'll be because that isn't how post season awards work but it is really, really hard to ignore his body of work.

If I had my guess the post season awards might look like this:

- Daylen Kountz (NC)
- Jabrile Belo (MSU)
- Dillon Jones (WSU)
- Koby McEwen (WSU)
- John Knight III (SUU)

With Bannan, Bergersen (EWU), Fowler (SS), Dixon (Idaho), Cone (NAU) getting some consideration as well. If they go POY and don't include him on the first team, then I think likely Jones or Belo are going to heavy consideration for CPOY.

 

[GrizBall]

Right now in regards to advanced metrics:

Josh Bannan is:
- 3rd in PER
-6th in OWS (Offensive Win Shares)
- 2nd in DWS (Defensive Win Shares)
-3rd in WS (Win Shares)
- 16th in ORating
-5th in D Rating
- 3rd in Floor Impact (FIC)
- 6th in Rebounding
- 8th in Points

He's a first team player if you look at advanced metrics. He's a first team player when you look at everything else. I don't think he'll be because that isn't how post season awards work but it is really, really hard to ignore his body of work.

If I had my guess the post season awards might look like this:

- Daylen Kountz (NC)
- Jabrile Belo (MSU)
- Dillon Jones (WSU)
- Koby McEwen (WSU)
- John Knight III (SUU)

With Bannan, Bergersen (EWU), Fowler (SS), Dixon (Idaho), Cone (NAU) getting some consideration as well. If they go POY and don't include him on the first team, then I think likely Jones or Belo are going to heavy consideration for CPOY.

This is interesting info. A few questions:

1. Where did you get this from?

2. Most sites that I see that have this info don’t give an option to segregate full season from conference only. If this includes full-season does it make a difference? Are coaches voting on full-season or conference or a combo?

3. You mentioned 10 players which I would assume this would be your 1st and 2nd team in some order. If you assume MSU wins the conference outright, do you believe the Conf champ will only have 1 of the top 10 players? In my opinion, it would be difficult to have 3 of the top 10 coming from bottom level teams with only 1 coming from the champs.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I think Whitney should have a shot for defensive player of the year also.

I hope so, but I think it is a tough climb. Generally the DPOY does well in the only stats that are measurable to defense (blocks and steals). On the season, Whitney is averaging 1.1 steals a game (tied for 14th) and 0.2 blocks. Currently Khalid Thomas is tied for 6th in blocks and 3rd in steals. Knight leads the league in steals and is also 15th in blocks. Thomas is also very versatile with the ability to guard 1-4. Last year's DPOY Kim Aiken was 7th in blocks and 8th in steals. And at 6'7 he could also guard 1-4.

Jonah Radenbaugh would be the most compelling comp to Whitney winning, but he had pretty good steal stats and both years that he won, UNC finished one game out of 1st place.

Whitney is an excellent defender and does extremely well in the Griz defensive system, which in fairness to him seems to value being in position and not gambling on steals and blocks. In another system Whitney would likely have more steals, which would boost his case.

An announcer a couple games ago was spouting a stat about how many points below their season average Whitney was holding his opponents, and it was glaring. Can/do they compare THAT figure? Because let's be honest, the rest of those stats are just window dressing...

 

[Mousegriz]

An announcer a couple games ago was spouting a stat about how many points below their season average Whitney was holding his opponents, and it was glaring. Can/do they compare THAT figure? Because let's be honest, the rest of those stats are just window dressing...
[/quote]

Spouting a stat? Not Riley "Never Stop Spouting Stats" Corcoran....listening to the last few minutes of the Lady Griz win over Lady Cats he was so overbearing. You'd think they'd just won the NCAA title to break UConn's record and that Holsinger was on his way to enshrinement in the Naismith Hall of Fame......THIS WEEK!!

Act like you and the team have "been there"!!

 

[GrizBall]

I hope so, but I think it is a tough climb. Generally the DPOY does well in the only stats that are measurable to defense (blocks and steals). On the season, Whitney is averaging 1.1 steals a game (tied for 14th) and 0.2 blocks. Currently Khalid Thomas is tied for 6th in blocks and 3rd in steals. Knight leads the league in steals and is also 15th in blocks. Thomas is also very versatile with the ability to guard 1-4. Last year's DPOY Kim Aiken was 7th in blocks and 8th in steals. And at 6'7 he could also guard 1-4.

Jonah Radenbaugh would be the most compelling comp to Whitney winning, but he had pretty good steal stats and both years that he won, UNC finished one game out of 1st place.

Whitney is an excellent defender and does extremely well in the Griz defensive system, which in fairness to him seems to value being in position and not gambling on steals and blocks. In another system Whitney would likely have more steals, which would boost his case.

An announcer a couple games ago was spouting a stat about how many points below their season average Whitney was holding his opponents, and it was glaring. Can/do they compare THAT figure? Because let's be honest, the rest of those stats are just window dressing...

In my humble opinion the stat of how much lower a person scored doesn’t really tell you much either. It is easily understandable but totally disregards the team aspect of defense. Switches, trapping off screens forcing guys baseline for your help to come over are all examples of when it is more than just one player getting the job done. Conversely, if he gets credit for those games does he also get the blame for McEwen scoring 32 and 24? Knight scoring 26? Bishop scoring 27?

I have read a number of good articles on quantifying defense (such as this one https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/11/22423517/nba-defense-analytics-nikola-jokic). And people that do it for a living admit it’s almost impossible to do.

In addition there are a number of defensive metrics that would suggest Whitney isn’t even the best defender on the Griz. Grizfan-24 said Bannan was 2nd in conference in Defensive Win Shares. If we are looking at the same source, Beasley was 10th. Lonnell Martin is also ahead of Whitney. Whitney is tied for 4th on the Griz with DCH and Parker.

Other defensive stats such as Defensive Rating, also have Whitney 4 or 5 on the Griz. Could that be because Whitney guards the best player so even though he may have worse numbers he could still be doing an elite job because someone else is just responsible for a player that stands in the corner?

That is not what I see when I watch and it’s obviously not what Travis sees either as he thinks Whitney is a top defensive player in the conference.

So I guess in sum, defense is very difficult to quantify with all defensive stats and metrics having big flaws.

 

[AZGrizFan]

An announcer a couple games ago was spouting a stat about how many points below their season average Whitney was holding his opponents, and it was glaring. Can/do they compare THAT figure? Because let's be honest, the rest of those stats are just window dressing...

In my humble opinion the stat of how much lower a person scored doesn’t really tell you much either. It is easily understandable but totally disregards the team aspect of defense. Switches, trapping off screens forcing guys baseline for your help to come over are all examples of when it is more than just one player getting the job done. Conversely, if he gets credit for those games does he also get the blame for McEwen scoring 32 and 24? Knight scoring 26? Bishop scoring 27?

I have read a number of good articles on quantifying defense (such as this one https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/11/22423517/nba-defense-analytics-nikola-jokic). And people that do it for a living admit it’s almost impossible to do.

In addition there are a number of defensive metrics that would suggest Whitney isn’t even the best defender on the Griz. Grizfan-24 said Bannan was 2nd in conference in Defensive Win Shares. If we are looking at the same source, Beasley was 10th. Lonnell Martin is also ahead of Whitney. Whitney is tied for 4th on the Griz with DCH and Parker.

Other defensive stats such as Defensive Rating, also have Whitney 4 or 5 on the Griz. Could that be because Whitney guards the best player so even though he may have worse numbers he could still be doing an elite job because someone else is just responsible for a player that stands in the corner?

That is not what I see when I watch and it’s obviously not what Travis sees either as he thinks Whitney is a top defensive player in the conference.

So I guess in sum, defense is very difficult to quantify with all defensive stats and metrics having big flaws.

Not arguing the point, just making an observation. And regarding those scorers, did he guard them primarily? I don’t know…

 

[Hoops watcher]

In my humble opinion the stat of how much lower a person scored doesn’t really tell you much either. It is easily understandable but totally disregards the team aspect of defense. Switches, trapping off screens forcing guys baseline for your help to come over are all examples of when it is more than just one player getting the job done. Conversely, if he gets credit for those games does he also get the blame for McEwen scoring 32 and 24? Knight scoring 26? Bishop scoring 27?

I have read a number of good articles on quantifying defense (such as this one https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/11/22423517/nba-defense-analytics-nikola-jokic). And people that do it for a living admit it’s almost impossible to do.

In addition there are a number of defensive metrics that would suggest Whitney isn’t even the best defender on the Griz. Grizfan-24 said Bannan was 2nd in conference in Defensive Win Shares. If we are looking at the same source, Beasley was 10th. Lonnell Martin is also ahead of Whitney. Whitney is tied for 4th on the Griz with DCH and Parker.

Other defensive stats such as Defensive Rating, also have Whitney 4 or 5 on the Griz. Could that be because Whitney guards the best player so even though he may have worse numbers he could still be doing an elite job because someone else is just responsible for a player that stands in the corner?

That is not what I see when I watch and it’s obviously not what Travis sees either as he thinks Whitney is a top defensive player in the conference.

So I guess in sum, defense is very difficult to quantify with all defensive stats and metrics having big flaws.

Not arguing the point, just making an observation. And regarding those scorers, did he guard them primarily? I don’t know…

We went through this with Timmy guarding studs and them putting u big numbers. The NBA tracks every player's move on video and can tell you this even with the switches on D, don't think we do the same. So as ball noted with our switching D it's hard to attribute who had who to determine that. So you can really have similar debates with both stat types, individual v team, etc.

https://towardsdatascience.com/nba-data-analytics-changing-the-game-a9ad59d1f116

 

[GrizBall]

In my humble opinion the stat of how much lower a person scored doesn’t really tell you much either. It is easily understandable but totally disregards the team aspect of defense. Switches, trapping off screens forcing guys baseline for your help to come over are all examples of when it is more than just one player getting the job done. Conversely, if he gets credit for those games does he also get the blame for McEwen scoring 32 and 24? Knight scoring 26? Bishop scoring 27?

I have read a number of good articles on quantifying defense (such as this one https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/5/11/22423517/nba-defense-analytics-nikola-jokic). And people that do it for a living admit it’s almost impossible to do.

In addition there are a number of defensive metrics that would suggest Whitney isn’t even the best defender on the Griz. Grizfan-24 said Bannan was 2nd in conference in Defensive Win Shares. If we are looking at the same source, Beasley was 10th. Lonnell Martin is also ahead of Whitney. Whitney is tied for 4th on the Griz with DCH and Parker.

Other defensive stats such as Defensive Rating, also have Whitney 4 or 5 on the Griz. Could that be because Whitney guards the best player so even though he may have worse numbers he could still be doing an elite job because someone else is just responsible for a player that stands in the corner?

That is not what I see when I watch and it’s obviously not what Travis sees either as he thinks Whitney is a top defensive player in the conference.

So I guess in sum, defense is very difficult to quantify with all defensive stats and metrics having big flaws.

Not arguing the point, just making an observation. And regarding those scorers, did he guard them primarily? I don’t know…

I didn’t take it that way, I wanted you to know I wasn’t arguing your point.

I don’t know if he was guarding them but I assume he was as he normally guards the other team’s best perimeter player.

If the other team’s best player is roughly his size and he is not the primary defender then in my mind that would disqualify him from DPOY.

If there was an All-BSC Defensive Team he would be 1st team without a doubt.