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JJ Trial

What you note is compelling information. Are you a lawyer? Your thoughts and explanation took lots of time to detail for us. Thanks for your perspective. At this point, it seems very reasonable. I hope others chime in on your writing.

UMGriz75 said:
What's interesting so far is what the State has left out. Ordinarily, the Prosecution tries to get all of the weak points into its case, so it can control the disclosure of those weak points and, in particular, appear to be forthcoming and honest.

The failure to do so leaves that story to be told by the Defense, on direct examination when they re-call Jane Doe. And ordinarily, the State does not want the Defense to be telling that story on their terms.

So it is a little baffling that the State did not do so, and the only plausible reason why is that the State knew that the testimony would leave it, at the close of its evidence, with a thoroughly demolished case and there was no way they could present the material without exposing the fatal fractures of their case.

The strategy must be, then, to attempt to prevent the evidence and testimony from coming in by objection during the Defense presentation.

It's going to be a battle. And the State will be relying heavily on the fact that the Judge's entire career was in prosecution, and that offers to them the advantage of "having two Prosecutors" at the trial, and only one Defense.

The key points the Defense will bring up, or try to bring up, on direct of Jane Doe:

1) certain aspects of her medical history,

2) her obvious willingness to ruthlessly lie to one of her closest friends in order to spend the evening with JJ,

3) that she was particularly angry that all JJ said was "thanks" when she dropped him off, and then after hearing nothing further from him, the letter she wrote to JJ two weeks after the "date" and to which he did not reply,

4) her actions two weeks after that to get a TRO against JJ based on her "fear" when, in fact, he was REFUSING to have anything to do with her, which appeared to be the primary reason for the TRO -- to get his attention and make the first public "statement" as part of her ongoing "campaign" -- which is how it will be portrayed. She will be shown here to have been willing to lie under oath -- another ruthless lie -- in order to "get" JJ,

5) Her history with JJ and her efforts to make it appear publicly as though she was his girlfriend,

6) the Forester's Ball where, learning that he was there with a date, an enraged, intoxicated Doe -- "alcohol-fueled" -- confronted JJ, announced mainly to JJ's date that she "would do him any time," and attempted to create a scene which JJ admirably attempted to defuse by placating her, which was the rationale behind the follow-up date the next day,

7) Her calls to the "Law Firm" that sued for money, and her resulting extraordinary efforts to track down JJ's entire sexual history -- the necessary key finding of "serial" behaviors which was necessary to sue UM for negligence,

8) The Defense will emphasize that she is articulate, sharp, ambitious, and controlling, and that she will bully people to get her way -- that was the reason for the State's seemingly odd questions about that to her friends that testified, the State knows what's coming on that count -- they were trying to answer questions that hadn't been asked yet, which came across as weak testimony,

9) The Defense will review her earlier testimony in detail; getting her to repeat the devastating things she has already admitted to. It will be high drama, as the Defense emphasizes those key points, in particular the testimony that she said "no" very early in the "date," changed it to babytalk "no's," and then finally actively participated in the actual "act" itself. They will go over and over that. She will be confronted with the fact that she did not, in fact, say "no" to the act of sex, and she will be asked to confirm the fact that she has stated that she doubted JJ understood that she did not want to have sex "because of her mixed signals," which were, the Defense will show, were not very mixed at all because, as she has now said, she engaged in the actual act of her own volition. She said that. And the State left that without qualification on re-direct and that was a devastating failure.

I suspect the line up will be an expert or two, the character witnesses, Jane Doe, and then JJ as the last witness. The Jury's last views of this case will be Jane Doe in tense confrontations attempting to rationalize many conflicting, contradictory, and overtly calculating behaviors and statements, too many, and her own words under oath. There will be tears. She is being coached this very weekend on how to act "vulnerable" and "meek," to appear to be the "victim" of ruthless and overbearing Defense attorneys; that she is being made a victim twice in this case. It will be a performance. The State will be objecting strenuously which will leave the Jurors with the notion that the State does not want the Jury to hear the full case -- the danger of too many objections.

And then they will hear JJ, who, as the roommate testified already, comes across as quiet, polite and shy. He will explain that by the time of the Forester's Ball incident, he was feeling stalked, hunted by Jane Doe. Yet, he liked her. They had some fun casual dates. But, after "that night" at the Ball, he got the feeling that she had crossed over the line. But, he also felt badly for her self-inflicted public humiliation. Because he is a nice guy.

And he made a mistake.
 
I have read all of the posts in this thread, and want to try to cut through all of the politically correct, carefully-constructed-so-as-not-to-offend-anyone posts, but putting it bluntly.

This chick openly stated in front of others that she wanted to "do Jordy". She willingly removed her shirt, allowing him to fondle her breasts, and kissed him willingly. She supposedly told him that she would do him, but just not that night. So, we have established that this girl wanted to bang the QB, but only when she said it was time.

So, is the timing of her consent to intercourse a reason to convict this kid, ruin his life, and put him in prison for many years? All of this just because he supposedly did not allow to to give him the green light? More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.
 
Special K said:
More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.

are you talking about max baucus here?
 
If she said the door is closed it is closed...no matter what! Forcing through door is rape. If she was real clear about saying no and he forced himself into her, it is rape. My wife reminds me of this everytime we discuss all the confusing testimony. If she said no after the act, then he is innocent. If she had a case similar to "buyers remorse" then he is innocent. The next few days of testimony should be real interesting.

Special K said:
I have read all of the posts in this thread, and want to try to cut through all of the politically correct, carefully-constructed-so-as-not-to-offend-anyone posts, but putting it bluntly.

This chick openly stated in front of others that she wanted to "do Jordy". She willingly removed her shirt, allowing him to fondle her breasts, and kissed him willingly. She supposedly told him that she would do him, but just not that night. So, we have established that this girl wanted to bang the QB, but only when she said it was time.

So, is the timing of her consent to intercourse a reason to convict this kid, ruin his life, and put him in prison for many years? All of this just because he supposedly did not allow to to give him the green light? More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.
 
Special K said:
I have read all of the posts in this thread, and want to try to cut through all of the politically correct, carefully-constructed-so-as-not-to-offend-anyone posts, but putting it bluntly.

This chick openly stated in front of others that she wanted to "do Jordy". She willingly removed her shirt, allowing him to fondle her breasts, and kissed him willingly. She supposedly told him that she would do him, but just not that night. So, we have established that this girl wanted to bang the QB, but only when she said it was time.

So, is the timing of her consent to intercourse a reason to convict this kid, ruin his life, and put him in prison for many years? All of this just because he supposedly did not allow to to give him the green light? More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.

Yes. If it was your wife, girlfriend, or sister, you would agree.

And since you are so tough, you should just nut up and say her name instead of being politically correct. You're the one who wants to do it - either nut up or shut up.
 
Why did she take him into her bedroom? Why didn't she sit in the living room with him over a cup of tea? The lady set him up folks....
 
If woman says no, but then continues with foreplay and cooperating with the sex, what is that? Certainly not rape.

If a woman says no not tonight, but then continues with foreplay, says its okay he doesn't have a condom, says you're bad in a playful way, and generally cooperates with the sex (or doesn't not cooperate or resist it), what is that? Not rape in my view.

If a woman says no and then proceeds with foreplay and sex, and then says no after the fact, what's that?

Some people make a big deal of no means no, but that's not particularly meaningful or helpful, because there's no way to prove that she actually said no or said it in a way that truly meant no.

The facts coming out in this particular case throw into doubt whether the woman actually said no, or said so in a meaningful way. She admitted in her testimony that her second no was said in a playful way.

Do things like lying to the rape nurse the next day about a fist having been inserted in her, influence her credibility?

Do her wishy washy texts undercut her credibility, including ones where she wonders if she's lying and ones saying Johnson didn't do anything wrong or think he did anything wrong?
 
Jerry Punch said:
Special K said:
So, is the timing of her consent to intercourse a reason to convict this kid, ruin his life, and put him in prison for many years? All of this just because he supposedly did not allow to to give him the green light? More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.

Yes. If it was your wife, girlfriend, or sister, you would agree.
Except that, oddly, her family apparently didn't agree.

I can't imagine the reasoning. But, that will stick with the Jury.

She admitted she had to threaten, bully, her mother and apparently the rest of the family as well. This is yet another of the State's weaknesses on their case in chief, all this odd testimony from friends, seemingly out of the blue, that "she wasn't a bully," contrasting dramatically with the words from her own mouth, about her own Mother, that ... yes, she was.

Paoli: "Didn't you tell your mother to get on your side or you wouldn't have anything to do with her?"...... W: "Yes"

And that will stick with the Jury, too.
 
I think her parents not being there for her testimony is bizarre and might mean something. Not sure how many parents who truly believe their daughter would not be there for support. Just a real red flag for me!
 
GrizSpartan said:
If she said the door is closed it is closed...no matter what! Forcing through door is rape. If she was real clear about saying no and he forced himself into her, it is rape. My wife reminds of this everytime we discuss all the confusing testimony. If she said no after the act, then he is innocent. If she had a case similar to "buyers remorse" then he is innocent. The next few days of testimony should be real interesting.
Yeah, well your closed door analogy doesn't work too well if it's a revolving door.
 
Ursus1 said:
I think her parents not being there for her testimony is bizarre and might mean something. Not sure how many parents who truly believe their daughter would not be there for support. Just a real red flag for me!

I agree. Maybe the defense should call her Mother as a witness to further the inquiry as to this bizarre issue?
 
You are right GrizSpartan. But no was also said using a baby voice per Doe. Also, please don't forget the burden of proof. He-said, she-said is far from proving it beyond a reasonable doubt. You have to go to credibility then and look at all the consistencies and inconsistencies in statements. Does your wife think Doe is consistent?
 
If her mother believed her and had testified other behalf about her behavior and that she truly believed her daughter was raped then the first thing most people would do is discount the mother's testimony because what mother isn't going to stand up for her daughter? You'd expect mom to be right there when her daughter needs her most.

I also believe the second thing most people would think would be that nobody knows their daughter like a mother. I think the testimony would still carry significant weight even with apparent bias.

So what then does it say that the accuser had to threaten her mother to get on board with her story and her mother is then not testifying on her behalf. The one person who should be rushing to her defense isn't.
 
It is confusing. I am sure the jury will be confused. Reasonable doubt will be established...if not so already. The jury will say he is innocent in the end. But my wife's words are understandable. No is no...whatever the situation. Your post is well-taken. Thanks!
granitegriz said:
You are right GrizSpartan. But no was also said using a baby voice per Doe. Also, please don't forget the burden of proof. He-said, she-said is far from proving it beyond a reasonable doubt. You have to go to credibility then and look at all the consistencies and inconsistencies in statements. Does your wife think Doe is consistent?
 
Jerry Punch said:
Special K said:
I have read all of the posts in this thread, and want to try to cut through all of the politically correct, carefully-constructed-so-as-not-to-offend-anyone posts, but putting it bluntly.

This chick openly stated in front of others that she wanted to "do Jordy". She willingly removed her shirt, allowing him to fondle her breasts, and kissed him willingly. She supposedly told him that she would do him, but just not that night. So, we have established that this girl wanted to bang the QB, but only when she said it was time.

So, is the timing of her consent to intercourse a reason to convict this kid, ruin his life, and put him in prison for many years? All of this just because he supposedly did not allow to to give him the green light? More importantly, is one vagina worth spending hundreds of thousands of Montana taxpayer dollars on? Think about it.

Yes. If it was your wife, girlfriend, or sister, you would agree.

And since you are so tough, you should just nut up and say her name instead of being politically correct. You're the one who wants to do it - either nut up or shut up.


Why so angry JP? Seems like you have some unresolved issues. I recommend counseling - maybe anger management.
 
Ursus1 said:
I think her parents not being there for her testimony is bizarre and might mean something. Not sure how many parents who truly believe their daughter would not be there for support. Just a real red flag for me!

I guess it's possible her parents told her they wouldn't support her, but....

Emily Foster ‏@emilyABCFOXMT

Woman says she can't have her family in the courtroom, she doesn't want them to see her in this situation #JohnsonTrial
from Missoula, MT
Feb 13 Montana Kaimin Montana Kaimin ‏@KaiminNews

I wanted family to remember me as that little girl with the curly brown hair. She didn't want them to see her "like this.
 
Caught in a bunch of inconsistencies? Drunk and publicly bugling she would do Jordy anytime the night before? I get it. :thumb:
 

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