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JJ case question

Griz2K, I think you're correct--the judge said more than she needed to and it sounds like she isn't exactly impartial.

I had a friend e-mail me yesterday that based on the judge's comments he would move to have the judge removed from this case. The significance: he's a lawyer ! (I am not a lawyer, but I told him I would not want her presiding over my trial my either after she made a comment like that. And no, I am not on trial for any alleged misdeed--I haven't been caught yet. :geek: )
 
Yukon said:
Griz2k said:
Regardless of that the "percentages" are, I just found it odd. I would have no problem if she simply said, "there is enough evidence to warrant moving forward to a trial", but that's not what she said. She put her own spin/judgment on it in my opinion. And let me be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight. If he did it, I hope he goes to prison. If he didn't, I hope he's exonerated.

If you look at the evidence and use a little common sense, there's a fair probability that the cats suck and the Griz are going to smoke them again this year. Are they still going to play the game? Yes, but I just told you what I think the outcome will be. She did to.
you're not the only one. I found it odd, also.


Its a legal term the equivalent of probable cause, It means nothing more that that......

More significant is her point of some of the "texts etc" may not even BE discoverable.
 
tnt said:
Yukon said:
Griz2k said:
Regardless of that the "percentages" are, I just found it odd. I would have no problem if she simply said, "there is enough evidence to warrant moving forward to a trial", but that's not what she said. She put her own spin/judgment on it in my opinion. And let me be clear, I don't have a dog in this fight. If he did it, I hope he goes to prison. If he didn't, I hope he's exonerated.

If you look at the evidence and use a little common sense, there's a fair probability that the cats suck and the Griz are going to smoke them again this year. Are they still going to play the game? Yes, but I just told you what I think the outcome will be. She did to.
you're not the only one. I found it odd, also.


Its a legal term the equivalent of probable cause, It means nothing more that that......

More significant is her point of some of the "texts etc" may not even BE discoverable.


it's a witch or c#$t hunt to be exact! the kids are both being played by bigger forces and its wrong :evil:
 
The most salient point to me in the judge's decision is that the clarifications and/or rebuttals are not "sworn testimony" meaning that they don't contain enough legal weight to justify dismissing the charges. Theoretically they could have been a whole lot fabrications for which there would be no consequences and so they won't be considered. This doesn't mean they aren't true but because nobody has put their hand on the bible to swear they are then they aren't actionable. This makes complete sense to me since this is a she said/he said situation. Ultimately the outcome is going to be based on the strength of the case that each side presents and then the decision of the jury. I am sure the defense (and of course prosecution) will properly vet each juror to determine if they have been prejudiced by anything that has occurred prior to the trial.
 
More significant is her point of some of the "texts etc" may not even BE discoverable.[/quote]


That may not be significant. Of the 1,000 plus pages of "texts etc" I have to imagine not all of them can meet the standard to get past Federal Rule of Evidence 401. That would simply mean they are not relevant to the issues of the case.
 
Just saying that there is probable cause to allow the matter to proceed to the trier in fact. Pretty standard stuff and the Defense knew the motion to dismiss didn't have a snowballs chance. The court will look at the presentation of the affidavit in the best light to determine if there are sufficient facts to that meet the statutory elements to allow the matter to proceed to trial. A motion to to dismiss would generally only be granted if the Prosecution failed to allege facts did not meet a requisite elements of the charge.
 
While I expected a denial of the motion, the language is disturbing but I think inadvertent.

Montana cases use the language "fair probability," but I think Judge Townsend misapplied that unfortunate terminology. It relates to searches and seizures PRIOR to charges being filed, and is not a standard used for filing of criminal complaints.

Although not a Montana case, this explanation is a clear one, and you can see where the "language" used by Judge Townsend comes from, but also that it is applied to a different context:

"In regard to the “probable cause” determination for a valid search warrant, the courts of this state have noted that “‘the task of the issuing (judge) is simply to make a practical, common-sense decision whether, given all the circumstances set forth in the affidavit before him, (***) there is a fair probability that contraband or evidence of a crime will be found in a particular place.’” State v. Young, 12th Dist. No. CA2005-08074, 2006 Ohio 1784, at ¶19, quoting State v. George (1989), 45 Ohio St.3d 325, 544 N.E.2d 640, paragraph one of the syllabus. To satisfy this standard, it is not necessary for the affidavit to show the existence of criminal activity by a preponderance of the evidence; in this respect, not even a prima facie showing is mandated to justify the issuance of the search warrant. State v. Montgomery (Aug. 29, 1997), 11th Dist. No. 95-P-0034, 1997 Ohio App. LEXIS 3880, at *3."

Judge Townsend relied on this language in Montana: "An affidavit filed in support of a motion for leave to file an information need only recite facts sufficient to indicate a probability that the defendant committed an offense; it need not demonstrate a prima facie case. State v. Ramstead (1990), 243 Mont. 162, 166, 793 P.2d 802, 804. An information is intended to provide the defendant with notice, not to provide discovery of the State's evidence. State v. Riley (1982), 199 Mont. 413, 421, 649 P.2d 1273, 1277. Further, a court reviewing an affidavit for probable cause may use common sense and draw permissible inferences; the standards are less stringent than those governing the admissibility of evidence. State v. Miner (1976), 169 Mont. 260, 264, 546 P.2d 252, 255. This probable cause determination will not be reversed absent an abuse of discretion. State v. Buckingham (1989), 240 Mont. 252, 256, 783 P.2d 1331, 1334."

"A" probability implies something considerably less than the "fair probability" language used elsewhere and for different purposes.

In Montana "fair probability" is used as the standard by which a convicted criminal may petition for a new trial. The Barry Beach case outlines how the standard is used:

"¶ 45 Beach's procedural claims warrant the application of a different standard of proof. Schlup, 513 U.S. at 324, 115 S.Ct. at 865. **674 The standard of proof should reflect the “relative importance attached to the ultimate decision.” Schlup, 513 U.S. at 325, 115 S.Ct. at 866 (citation omitted). A substantive innocence claim, if successful, results in the petitioner's release. By contrast, a successful procedural claim results in a new trial, and justifies a different standard of proof. Schlup, 513 U.S. at 327, 115 S.Ct. at 867. The “reasonable probability” standard outlined in Clark, ¶ 34, strikes a rough equivalence with the notion that “a constitutional violation at trial has probably resulted in the conviction of one who is ‘actually innocent.’ ” Pope, ¶ 46. This “reasonable probability” standard also comports with the Schlup standard that requires the petitioner to “establish, by a ‘fair probability,’ that the ‘trier of the facts would have entertained a reasonable doubt of his guilt.’ ” Schlup, 513 U.S. at 322, 115 S.Ct. at 864 (citation omitted).

The use of the language is unfortunate, because it is not generally understood in the way that the courts have peculiarly used it even in the very limited fashion they have used it. I think Judge Townsend misused it, but even just using the proper standard "probability" doesn't add much to the public perception.

The irony is that Judge Townsend noted that the factual statements contained in the Motion to Dismiss were not submitted under oath.

Of course, one of the interesting glaring hypocrisies of the criminal justice system is that the charging affidavit is one filed the county attorney, detailing the "facts" of the crime, by a person who was not there.

In any other area of the law, it would be dismissed as being a "hearsay" affidavit and, to add a further irony, if the hearsay is later proven false -- even though taken under "oath" -- there are no consequences for what would be, under all other circumstances, a false swearing; indeed, chargeable as a criminal offense!

Finally, the Information that is filed charging a defendant with a crime, reciting the "facts" supporting the charge, is not filed under the much high standard that Judge Townsend requires for setting it aside or dismissing it, i.e., it is not filed under a formal oath.
 
Chitown_law said:
More significant is her point of some of the "texts etc" may not even BE discoverable.


That may not be significant. Of the 1,000 plus pages of "texts etc" I have to imagine not all of them can meet the standard to get past Federal Rule of Evidence 401. That would simply mean they are not relevant to the issues of the case.[/quote]

Isn't it pathetic that these stupid rules disallow the very evidence which would exonerate this kid?
 
Non-discoverable evidence under the Federal Rules is limited to a specific class of documents:

"Rule 16(2). Information Not Subject to Disclosure. Except as Rule 16(a)(1) provides otherwise, this rule does not authorize the discovery or inspection of reports, memoranda, or other internal government documents made by an attorney for the government or other government agent in connection with investigating or prosecuting the case. Nor does this rule authorize the discovery or inspection of statements made by prospective government witnesses except as provided in 18 U.S.C. §3500."

The ruling suggests that some of Jane Does' text messages were with the county attorney's office or detectives.
 
Sheesh, everybody just needs to calm down.

Imagine the uproar if this was a murder case, and the defense was trying to get the charges tossed on a technicality.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems like all the judge is saying is that there is enough substance in the charging documents for the case to proceed to trial, and that the defense hasn't shown a compelling reason for the case not to proceed. But once the case proceeds to trial, the prosecution will still need to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and this denial of the defense's motion to dismiss will have no bearing on the trial itself.

Am I right, legal beagles?
 
Growler...attorney/moron. This is Montana. JJ is charged in a Montana district court, not federal court. The federal rules of evidence do not apply. Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? :roll:
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Sheesh, everybody just needs to calm down.

Imagine the uproar if this was a murder case, and the defense was trying to get the charges tossed on a technicality.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems like all the judge is saying is that there is enough substance in the charging documents for the case to proceed to trial, and that the defense hasn't shown a compelling reason for the case not to proceed. But once the case proceeds to trial, the prosecution will still need to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and this denial of the defense's motion to dismiss will have no bearing on the trial itself.

Am I right, legal beagles?

hundred percent right dude. I did a paper on this in EN101 at UM. every person in the USA who is arrested for ANYTHING gets to do a Legal Trial. There fore got to let the man tell watsup to the jurry. Once thats done if the csi cant link any evidence like bullets or cmen then he walks away and practices for the griz the next day. take it to the bank
 
JAKEweezy93 said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Sheesh, everybody just needs to calm down.

Imagine the uproar if this was a murder case, and the defense was trying to get the charges tossed on a technicality.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems like all the judge is saying is that there is enough substance in the charging documents for the case to proceed to trial, and that the defense hasn't shown a compelling reason for the case not to proceed. But once the case proceeds to trial, the prosecution will still need to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and this denial of the defense's motion to dismiss will have no bearing on the trial itself.

Am I right, legal beagles?

hundred percent right dude. I did a paper on this in EN101 at UM. every person in the USA who is arrested for ANYTHING gets to do a Legal Trial. There fore got to let the man tell watsup to the jurry. Once thats done if the csi cant link any evidence like bullets or cmen then he walks away and practices for the griz the next day. take it to the bank

Anybody know if they recovered some of JJ's love potion from Jane Doe?

Seems like that is the last unknown in this case.
 
Wolfman_Jack said:
JAKEweezy93 said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Sheesh, everybody just needs to calm down.

Imagine the uproar if this was a murder case, and the defense was trying to get the charges tossed on a technicality.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems like all the judge is saying is that there is enough substance in the charging documents for the case to proceed to trial, and that the defense hasn't shown a compelling reason for the case not to proceed. But once the case proceeds to trial, the prosecution will still need to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and this denial of the defense's motion to dismiss will have no bearing on the trial itself.

Am I right, legal beagles?

hundred percent right dude. I did a paper on this in EN101 at UM. every person in the USA who is arrested for ANYTHING gets to do a Legal Trial. There fore got to let the man tell watsup to the jurry. Once thats done if the csi cant link any evidence like bullets or cmen then he walks away and practices for the griz the next day. take it to the bank

Anybody know if they recovered some of JJ's love potion from Jane Doe?

Seems like that is the last unknown in this case.


Doesn't matter. JJ already admitted to having sex with her.
 
JJs admission means NOTHING to that jury if they got no cmen. i saw on dateline that u can use a bluish lamp like the grow lights in my closet to detect cmen that u cant see in normal light. by now she could of washed most of it away tho. plus how would u even know its HIS and not some other dudes if u find it? theres just no way you can tie cmen to one person unless its by the special smell or color.
 
JAKEweezy93 said:
JJs admission means NOTHING to that jury if they got no cmen. i saw on dateline that u can use a bluish lamp like the grow lights in my closet to detect cmen that u cant see in normal light. by now she could of washed most of it away tho. plus how would u even know its HIS and not some other dudes if u find it? theres just no way you can tie cmen to one person unless its by the special smell or color.


Ever get the feeling that someone is F'ing with us again?
 
JAKEweezy93 said:
JJs admission means NOTHING to that jury if they got no cmen. i saw on dateline that u can use a bluish lamp like the grow lights in my closet to detect cmen that u cant see in normal light. by now she could of washed most of it away tho. plus how would u even know its HIS and not some other dudes if u find it? theres just no way you can tie cmen to one person unless its by the special smell or color.

Maybe you should turn off the grow lights and put the pipe down. Why would finding semen matter? He admitted having sex with her! That is not what's in question in this case.
 
granitegriz said:
Growler...attorney/moron. This is Montana. JJ is charged in a Montana district court, not federal court. The federal rules of evidence do not apply. Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? :roll:

If he had cited Montana Rule 401 instead of Federal Rule 401, would you be happier? :roll:
 
Grizlaw said:
granitegriz said:
Growler...attorney/moron. This is Montana. JJ is charged in a Montana district court, not federal court. The federal rules of evidence do not apply. Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? :roll:

If he had cited Montana Rule 401 instead of Federal Rule 401, would you be happier? :roll:

I haven't cited any law (and frankly, I'm not really interested in debating the merits of this case), but for what it's worth, I am a member of the Montana bar, and I'm pretty sure I'm capable of discussing any legal issue in any state with the likes of you, so spare me whatever lecture you think you're qualified to give me.
 
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