Jeff Choate new MSU Head Coach

[PlayerRep]

I know amazing that someone who didn't play for Fart-mouth actually knows people in the collegiate coaching ranks...crazy world

You don't get the comment, do you? Pretty funny.

 

[JDoub]

It is interesting that the Wombats chose someone who didn't even make it into the final interviews at UM. He certainly doesn't come to the job as an earth-shaker; really kind of an odd choice given the hysteria in Bozeman over the state of the football program. A definite let-down for those all fired up over the prospects of Hill coming to Bozeman but, face it, the 'Bats managed to make a bad situation worse; a clumsy firing of a winning coach who had a bad year, a 40 year record of being a graveyard for collegiate coaches, a rabid irrational fanbase, a QB and asst coach conspiring to pressure the AD, an AD whose spine is kept in a closet in the president's office, and Montana's largest outdoor septic tank placed next to a stadium widely derided as a kitty litter box.

He is, if nothing else, a brave man.

I am one who agrees that we should have kept Ash. But that didn't happen.

As far as a '40 year record of being a graveyard for college coaches' -- I don't know about that. Here's some Bobcat coaches from the past 40 years who have had some success after Bozeman:
Dennis Erickson - 2 National Championships at Miami, 7 Conference Championships Pac10 & Big East, 10 FBS Bowl games with 5 wins
Jim Sweeney - 5 Conference Championships at Fresno, 5 FBS Bowl wins
Sonny Lubick - 7 Conference Championships at CSU, 3 FBS Bowl wins - see 'Sonny Lubick Field' at CSU
Dave Arnold - Assistant on 2 National Champion FBS teams, 20 years coaching FBS/NFL

Now, I had to look it up:
Larry Donovan, went 0-4 with the BC Lions and never a HC again, unless you count Japanese X League Hurricanes (seriously), and Renesas Technologies from 1992 until 2007. He was a training camp coach and consultant for the Asahi Beverage Challengers in Osaka, Japan in 2010.
Joe Glenn, after UM never won a conference title again to date
Don Read -- retired on top -- all respect, good guy
Bobby Hauck - 15-49 at UNLV, did make it to one Bowl game but lost that. Assistant at SDSU, meh
Robin Pflugrad - not sure what happened to him after OC Weber State 2013
Mick - personal family friend and I love the man, you know he coached at MSU first, right? filled gap admirably

Unless I'm missing something, can you tell me what UM coach had more success than former MSU coaches moving up? Looking at it, it seems to me that UM is more of a coaching graveyard for college coaches than MSU.

 

[catsack]

It is interesting that the Wombats chose someone who didn't even make it into the final interviews at UM. He certainly doesn't come to the job as an earth-shaker; really kind of an odd choice given the hysteria in Bozeman over the state of the football program. A definite let-down for those all fired up over the prospects of Hill coming to Bozeman but, face it, the 'Bats managed to make a bad situation worse; a clumsy firing of a winning coach who had a bad year, a 40 year record of being a graveyard for collegiate coaches, a rabid irrational fanbase, a QB and asst coach conspiring to pressure the AD, an AD whose spine is kept in a closet in the president's office, and Montana's largest outdoor septic tank placed next to a stadium widely derided as a kitty litter box.

He is, if nothing else, a brave man.

I am one who agrees that we should have kept Ash. But that didn't happen.

As far as a '40 year record of being a graveyard for college coaches' -- I don't know about that. Here's some Bobcat coaches from the past 40 years who have had some success after Bozeman:
Dennis Erickson - 2 National Championships at Miami, 7 Conference Championships Pac10 & Big East, 10 FBS Bowl games with 5 wins
Jim Sweeney - 5 Conference Championships at Fresno, 5 FBS Bowl wins
Sonny Lubick - 7 Conference Championships at CSU, 3 FBS Bowl wins - see 'Sonny Lubick Field' at CSU
Dave Arnold - Assistant on 2 National Champion FBS teams, 20 years coaching FBS/NFL

Now, I had to look it up:
Larry Donovan, went 0-4 with the BC Lions and never a HC again, unless you count Japanese X League Hurricanes (seriously), and Renesas Technologies from 1992 until 2007. He was a training camp coach and consultant for the Asahi Beverage Challengers in Osaka, Japan in 2010.
Joe Glenn, after UM never won a conference title again to date
Don Read -- retired on top -- all respect, good guy
Bobby Hauck - 15-49 at UNLV, did make it to one Bowl game but lost that. Assistant at SDSU, meh
Robin Pflugrad - not sure what happened to him after OC Weber State 2013
Mick - personal family friend and I love the man, you know he coached at MSU first, right? filled gap admirably

Unless I'm missing something, can you tell me what UM coach had more success than former MSU coaches moving up? Looking at it, it seems to me that UM is more of a coaching graveyard for college coaches than MSU.

Lubick got fired by the cats , Dennis never was the head coach. So it is a graveyard for head coaches. Glenn lead Wyoming to a bowl win,

 

[PlayerRep]

It is interesting that the Wombats chose someone who didn't even make it into the final interviews at UM. He certainly doesn't come to the job as an earth-shaker; really kind of an odd choice given the hysteria in Bozeman over the state of the football program. A definite let-down for those all fired up over the prospects of Hill coming to Bozeman but, face it, the 'Bats managed to make a bad situation worse; a clumsy firing of a winning coach who had a bad year, a 40 year record of being a graveyard for collegiate coaches, a rabid irrational fanbase, a QB and asst coach conspiring to pressure the AD, an AD whose spine is kept in a closet in the president's office, and Montana's largest outdoor septic tank placed next to a stadium widely derided as a kitty litter box.

He is, if nothing else, a brave man.

I am one who agrees that we should have kept Ash. But that didn't happen.

As far as a '40 year record of being a graveyard for college coaches' -- I don't know about that. Here's some Bobcat coaches from the past 40 years who have had some success after Bozeman:
Dennis Erickson - 2 National Championships at Miami, 7 Conference Championships Pac10 & Big East, 10 FBS Bowl games with 5 wins
Jim Sweeney - 5 Conference Championships at Fresno, 5 FBS Bowl wins
Sonny Lubick - 7 Conference Championships at CSU, 3 FBS Bowl wins - see 'Sonny Lubick Field' at CSU
Dave Arnold - Assistant on 2 National Champion FBS teams, 20 years coaching FBS/NFL

Now, I had to look it up:
Larry Donovan, went 0-4 with the BC Lions and never a HC again, unless you count Japanese X League Hurricanes (seriously), and Renesas Technologies from 1992 until 2007. He was a training camp coach and consultant for the Asahi Beverage Challengers in Osaka, Japan in 2010.
Joe Glenn, after UM never won a conference title again to date
Don Read -- retired on top -- all respect, good guy
Bobby Hauck - 15-49 at UNLV, did make it to one Bowl game but lost that. Assistant at SDSU, meh
Robin Pflugrad - not sure what happened to him after OC Weber State 2013
Mick - personal family friend and I love the man, you know he coached at MSU first, right? filled gap admirably

Unless I'm missing something, can you tell me what UM coach had more success than former MSU coaches moving up? Looking at it, it seems to me that UM is more of a coaching graveyard for college coaches than MSU.

Nice, but inaccurate summary.

Sweeney last coached at MSU in 1968, 47 years ago and outside of your 40 year window.

Erickson was only an asst coach.

Arnold has one very nice year, but was 18-29 overall and has seasons of 1-10, 2-9, 3-8. Don't most people credit him with the demise of MSU football.

Lubick became a nice coach. However, was fired by MSU, after 4-6 and 3-7 seasons.

 

[AZGrizFan]

It is interesting that the Wombats chose someone who didn't even make it into the final interviews at UM. He certainly doesn't come to the job as an earth-shaker; really kind of an odd choice given the hysteria in Bozeman over the state of the football program. A definite let-down for those all fired up over the prospects of Hill coming to Bozeman but, face it, the 'Bats managed to make a bad situation worse; a clumsy firing of a winning coach who had a bad year, a 40 year record of being a graveyard for collegiate coaches, a rabid irrational fanbase, a QB and asst coach conspiring to pressure the AD, an AD whose spine is kept in a closet in the president's office, and Montana's largest outdoor septic tank placed next to a stadium widely derided as a kitty litter box.

He is, if nothing else, a brave man.

I am one who agrees that we should have kept Ash. But that didn't happen.

As far as a '40 year record of being a graveyard for college coaches' -- I don't know about that. Here's some Bobcat coaches from the past 40 years who have had some success after Bozeman:
Dennis Erickson - 2 National Championships at Miami, 7 Conference Championships Pac10 & Big East, 10 FBS Bowl games with 5 wins
Jim Sweeney - 5 Conference Championships at Fresno, 5 FBS Bowl wins
Sonny Lubick - 7 Conference Championships at CSU, 3 FBS Bowl wins - see 'Sonny Lubick Field' at CSU
Dave Arnold - Assistant on 2 National Champion FBS teams, 20 years coaching FBS/NFL

Now, I had to look it up:
Larry Donovan, went 0-4 with the BC Lions and never a HC again, unless you count Japanese X League Hurricanes (seriously), and Renesas Technologies from 1992 until 2007. He was a training camp coach and consultant for the Asahi Beverage Challengers in Osaka, Japan in 2010.
Joe Glenn, after UM never won a conference title again to date
Don Read -- retired on top -- all respect, good guy
Bobby Hauck - 15-49 at UNLV, did make it to one Bowl game but lost that. Assistant at SDSU, meh
Robin Pflugrad - not sure what happened to him after OC Weber State 2013
Mick - personal family friend and I love the man, you know he coached at MSU first, right? filled gap admirably

Unless I'm missing something, can you tell me what UM coach had more success than former MSU coaches moving up? Looking at it, it seems to me that UM is more of a coaching graveyard for college coaches than MSU.

:lol: OK, its only been a THIRTY year graveyard for head coaches....

 

[JDoub]

Lubick got fired by the cats , Dennis never was the head coach. So it is a graveyard for head coaches. Glenn lead Wyoming to a bowl win,

OK I'll concede that, kind of. True Dennis was not HC here. Lubick still coached at MSU before being let go and then moving up. And he still had more success at the next level than ANY UM coach has. I wish we would have kept Lubick also. We even fired a HC who went on to be HC at Rutgers and NFL Europe, even won a World Bowl, but I didn't even mention Doug Graber. We should've kept him too.

So Glenn's one bowl win is greater than Sweeney's 5 bowl wins? that's the story?

Hey innovative coach Stitt -- move up to the best FCS program in the country, and you too can look forward to the success that Joe Glenn has enjoyed!!!

2003 Wyoming 4–8 2–5 T–7th
2004 Wyoming 7–5 3–4 T–4th W Las Vegas
2005 Wyoming 4–7 2–6 8th
2006 Wyoming 6–6 5–3 T–3rd
2007 Wyoming 5–7 2–6 T–7th
2008 Wyoming 4–8 1–7 T–8th
Wyoming: 30–41 15–31
South Dakota Coyotes (Missouri Valley Football Conference) (2012–2015)
2012 South Dakota 1–10 0–8 10th
2013 South Dakota 4–8 3–5 T–7th
2014 South Dakota 2–10 0–8 10th
2015 South Dakota 5–6 3–5 T–6th

You still can't name a Griz HC in the past 40 years that has had MORE success at the next level than former Bobcat HC's have. No former Griz HC has won a conference championship, a World Bowl, or any other championship after moving up from UM. Have they??? Ours have, and you just can't intelligently say that equates to a graveyard.

I know you have a (or even "the") premier FCS football program in the country. I don't dispute that. But your program brings you success, NOT your Head Coaches. UM is an end game for a HC. They just don't move up and have the same success they had at UM. Maybe Stitt will buck that trend?

 

[PlayerRep]

Lubick got fired by the cats , Dennis never was the head coach. So it is a graveyard for head coaches. Glenn lead Wyoming to a bowl win,

OK I'll concede that, kind of. True Dennis was not HC here. Lubick still coached at MSU before being let go and then moving up. And he still had more success at the next level than ANY UM coach has. I wish we would have kept Lubick also. We even fired a HC who went on to be HC at Rutgers and NFL Europe, even won a World Bowl, but I didn't even mention Doug Graber. We should've kept him too.

So Glenn's one bowl win is greater than Sweeney's 5 bowl wins? that's the story?

Hey innovative coach Stitt -- move up to the best FCS program in the country, and you too can look forward to the success that Joe Glenn has enjoyed!!!

2003 Wyoming 4–8 2–5 T–7th
2004 Wyoming 7–5 3–4 T–4th W Las Vegas
2005 Wyoming 4–7 2–6 8th
2006 Wyoming 6–6 5–3 T–3rd
2007 Wyoming 5–7 2–6 T–7th
2008 Wyoming 4–8 1–7 T–8th
Wyoming: 30–41 15–31
South Dakota Coyotes (Missouri Valley Football Conference) (2012–2015)
2012 South Dakota 1–10 0–8 10th
2013 South Dakota 4–8 3–5 T–7th
2014 South Dakota 2–10 0–8 10th
2015 South Dakota 5–6 3–5 T–6th

You still can't name a Griz HC in the past 40 years that has had MORE success at the next level than former Bobcat HC's have. No former Griz HC has won a conference championship, a World Bowl, or any other championship after moving up from UM. Have they??? Ours have, and you just can't intelligently say that equates to a graveyard.

I know you have a (or even "the") premier FCS football program in the country. I don't dispute that. But your program brings you success, NOT your Head Coaches. UM is an end game for a HC. They just don't move up and have the same success they had at UM. Maybe Stitt will buck that trend?

Several questions.

Can you name any MSU head coach who has had great success, and great playoff and post-season success, at MSU--say starting in 1970?

Which MSU head coaches, say again since 1970, left MSU without being fired or pushed out, and left to take another head coaching job for the following year?

1970 is obviously more than 40 years ago, and yes everyone agree that Jim Sweeney left without being fired and had a nice long successful career.

Are you predicting great success for Ash now that he is no longer with MSU?

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Maybe Ron Ash will win a World Bowl (I don't know what a World Bowl is).

 

[bgbigdog]

Maybe Ron Ash will win a World Bowl (I don't know what a World Bowl is).

Isn't a world bowl on the menu @ Big Bowl? I usually get whatever is extra gluten on the menu. And if you drop a business card in the big bowl in front you can win a world bowl on your birthday. Not sure if Ron will want to use one his old cards for that, but I suppose you could cross out the information that isn't current and put down a forwarding address. Will have to keep an eye out for those khakis next time I'm there.

 

[JDoub]

Several questions.

Can you name any MSU head coach who has had great success, and great playoff and post-season success, at MSU--say starting in 1970?

None really. Ash won a couple, Kramer won one, not great success but at least made the playoffs several times. That is why UM is an end game for a Head Coach. I never argued that MSU coaches have greater success than UM coaches, only that I disagree that MSU is a graveyard for HC's the past 40 years.

Which MSU head coaches, say again since 1970, left MSU without being fired or pushed out, and left to take another head coaching job for the following year?

None. So what's the point? They (Lubick, Graber, Arnold, even Kramer) have gone on to be HC's (or in Arnold's case NFL assistant). GRAVEYARD was the assertion that I disagree with, backed up with facts. Former MSU HC's have had more years as HC after MSU, with greater winning percentages, than former UM Head Coaches.

After UM: last 40 years
Swarthout, no more HC gigs
Carlson, no more HC gigs
Donovan, 1/3 year HC in CFL, 0 wins
Glenn, 10 more years as HC, 6 FBS 4 FCS. 1 Winning season.
Hauck, 5 more years as HC FBS, 1 winning season
Pflugrad, no more HC gigs yet
Delaney, retired

After MSU:
Holland, retired after winning DII NC
Graber, 9 more years as HC FBS and NFL Europe, 5 winning seasons
Lubick, 15 more years HC FBS, 12 winning seasons, winning-est coach in CSU history
Arnold, assistant from then on but did win 2 NC's at Miami and coached in NFL
Solmonson, retired after fired
Hysell, retired at MSU for health reasons
Kramer, HC at ISU 5 years, 1 winning season

So I've got:
UM HC's after UM: 15 years HC experience, 2 winning seasons
MSU HC's after MSU: 29 years HC experience, 18 winning seasons

Are you predicting great success for Ash now that he is no longer with MSU?

No. But it wouldn't surprise me. What we did to Ash was wrong. At 64 I don't know if he will coach or retire. He will be successful at whatever he decides to do, but I don't think he wants to be a HC again.

What HC career has died after being HC at MSU? Solmonson, Arnold
What HC career has died after being HC at UM? Swarthout, Carlson, Donovan, Pflugrad, and I'd say slow HC deaths for Glenn and Hauck, whose UM success bought them enough gas mileage to lose several years at FBS and another FCS school.

I'll say it again -- you have an elite PROGRAM. But don't think your success on the field is because UM has had the best Head Coaches. That is coaches who move up to FBS and kill it because they're the next Urban Meyer.

If you're gonna say MSU is a HC graveyard the past 40 years, then so is UM. Our former HC's have had more years as HC after MSU than former UM HC's have after UM, and overall better records. By far.

 

[UMGriz75]

If you're gonna say MSU is a HC graveyard the past 40 years, then so is UM. Our former HC's have had more years as HC after MSU than former UM HC's have after UM, and overall better records. By far.

You are presenting the argument that MSU fires very good coaches habitually. The coaches are good, but the program sucks?

It is an interesting claim. Thanks for that perspective.

 

[PlayerRep]

Here's a quick summary of last 40 years. UM coaches tend to move on to FBS jobs. They don't get fired or pushed out by UM for lack of performance. They haven't done all that well at the FBS level. They also haven't gotten or taken very good FBS jobs, in that they tend to get tough jobs where success is not easyl. MSU coaches don't leave for FBS or other jobs. They get fired or pushed out. Some eventually get another head coaching job and do reasonably well. Only Lubbick has gotten an FBS job and done reasonably well. This must be fairly close. Thanks for the detailed information and history, tho.

 

[JDoub]

If you're gonna say MSU is a HC graveyard the past 40 years, then so is UM. Our former HC's have had more years as HC after MSU than former UM HC's have after UM, and overall better records. By far.

You are presenting the argument that MSU fires very good coaches habitually. The coaches are good, but the program sucks?

It is an interesting claim. Thanks for that perspective.

Actually is close to what I'm saying. Sadly.

Not so much the program sucks, 'cause we don't suck. But we have let go of good coaches habitually. And we just did it again.

Your program breeds more success than your coaches do. Our coaches have brought more success than our program has.

 

[JDoub]

Here's a quick summary of last 40 years. UM coaches tend to move on to FBS jobs. They don't get fired or pushed out by UM for lack of performance. They haven't done all that well at the FBS level. They also haven't gotten or taken very good FBS jobs, in that they tend to get tough jobs where success is not easyl. MSU coaches don't leave for FBS or other jobs. They get fired or pushed out. Some eventually get another head coaching job and do reasonably well. Only Lubbick has gotten an FBS job and done reasonably well. This must be fairly close. Thanks for the detailed information and history, tho.

Pretty much. Kind of.

Although I wouldn't count 2 out of your 7 HC's moving on to FBS jobs as a tendency. And didn't you fire or push out Swarthout, Carlson, Donovan, and Pflugrad for lack of performance?

I'd say Graber did reasonably well at Rutgers with half of his 6 seasons being winning seasons at least. Better than either Hauck or Glenn. In fact, both our FBS coaches, Graber and Lubick, took FBS jobs where success was not easy. But they did have more success than your two FBS coaches. You can call it fairly close if you want. (29 to 15, and 18 to 2) You just don't have a Lubick story. Or even a Graber or Arnold story. All you got is a Hauck and Glenn story, which ain't sayin much for the best program in FCS.

 

[grizpack]

Dennehy also went to an FBS job (Utah State).

But it didn't work out well.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

If you're gonna say MSU is a HC graveyard the past 40 years, then so is UM. Our former HC's have had more years as HC after MSU than former UM HC's have after UM, and overall better records. By far.

You are presenting the argument that MSU fires very good coaches habitually. The coaches are good, but the program sucks?

It is an interesting claim. Thanks for that perspective.

Actually is close to what I'm saying. Sadly.

Not so much the program sucks, 'cause we don't suck. But we have let go of good coaches habitually. And we just did it again.

Your program breeds more success than your coaches do. Our coaches have brought more success than our program has.

If the program doesn't suck, why couldn't all those good coaches win there?

 

[JDoub]

If the program doesn't suck, why couldn't all those good coaches win there?

They did.

Lubick won two Big Sky Championships in 4 years.

Graber won the Big Sky in his only year.

Arnold won a National Championship.

Kramer won 3 Big Sky Championships.

Ash won 3 Big Sky Championships and 50 conference games.

The program has had 13 winning seasons in the past 14 years, with 5 Conference Titles. Doesn't suck.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Oh, OK. I was under the impression that the MSU program sucked for years. Maybe "consistently mediocre" is the better term.

 

[JDoub]

Oh, OK. I was under the impression that the MSU program sucked for years. Maybe "consistently mediocre" is the better term.

I prefer "Above Average."

Just like in Lake Wobegon

for programs that suck, see the likes of Northern Colorado and ISU

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Oh, OK. I was under the impression that the MSU program sucked for years. Maybe "consistently mediocre" is the better term.

I prefer "Above Average."

Just like in Lake Wobegon

for programs that suck, see the likes of Northern Colorado and ISU

I'll give you above average. Definitely for the BSC. The facilities are coming along piece by piece, but more needs to be done. They need to lose the grain elevator/quonset hut looking boxes in favor of something that doesn't look like a tornado target. The east bleachers should likely go, too. Fill in the shit pond, and lose the sheds in the open end zone. I think the M on the helmet and the Cat Head are both flat-out silly, though. Sorry.

It seems like the coaching situation is improving. Ron was never going to get that program to a semifinal. I think Fields might have gotten lucky with the Jon Choate hire. I do think it's a bit disingenuous for Choade to try to suggest to the boosters that he is going to win the Montana recruiting battle; that's just not realistic. It's like being introduced as the coach at Bowling Green and saying that you are going to win the NC. I think you are correct. It's an above average program trying to find itself in the shadow of its big bro.