Jacksonville St. Recruit Killed at Sister's Party in Ala.

[AZGrizFan]

Regardless of where you sit on the spectrum, there is no denying that there is an epidemic of firearm violence in this country. It spills into FCS football as it is taking players and recruits lives. The Kaiser Family Foundation lists gun shots as the leading cause of death for children 1-19. That comes out to 5.6 deaths per 100,000. No other advanced country comes close to this rate (the average is .3 per 100,000). Why is this a strictly US problem?

Rational conversation needs to happen and it cannot move forward without the loud fringes of each side sitting this one out. No one is happy with kids dying.

What does the number look like when you back out gang-related deaths, shootings, drive bys and initiations?

 

[uofmman1122]

Regardless of where you sit on the spectrum, there is no denying that there is an epidemic of firearm violence in this country. It spills into FCS football as it is taking players and recruits lives. The Kaiser Family Foundation lists gun shots as the leading cause of death for children 1-19. That comes out to 5.6 deaths per 100,000. No other advanced country comes close to this rate (the average is .3 per 100,000). Why is this a strictly US problem?

Rational conversation needs to happen and it cannot move forward without the loud fringes of each side sitting this one out. No one is happy with kids dying.

What does the number look like when you back out gang-related deaths, shootings, drive bys and initiations?

I have no idea how much those make up "assault" gun deaths among children in the US (they don't stipulate), but even if you removed all assault deaths, we'd still have 3.5x the amount of child gun deaths as the next developed country based on suicide, alone. (Suicide is also the leading cause of all gun deaths in the US)

 

[poorgriz]

What does the number look like when you back out gang-related deaths, shootings, drive bys and initiations?

I have no idea how much those make up "assault" gun deaths among children in the US (they don't stipulate), but even if you removed all assault deaths, we'd still have 3.5x the amount of child gun deaths as the next developed country based on suicide, alone. (Suicide is also the leading cause of all gun deaths in the US)

Yep. Lots of root causes for why so many young people in the U.S. feel a need for violence against others, and suicide, etc. Many factors at play. Lots if it is mental health. Very sad. Going ultra strict on gun laws would probably reduce the number of kids killed by guns every year, but wouldn't be a huge difference, IMO. I'm all for stricter gun laws, just won't solve the root problem.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

Regardless of where you sit on the spectrum, there is no denying that there is an epidemic of firearm violence in this country. It spills into FCS football as it is taking players and recruits lives. The Kaiser Family Foundation lists gun shots as the leading cause of death for children 1-19. That comes out to 5.6 deaths per 100,000. No other advanced country comes close to this rate (the average is .3 per 100,000). Why is this a strictly US problem?

Rational conversation needs to happen and it cannot move forward without the loud fringes of each side sitting this one out. No one is happy with kids dying.

What does the number look like when you back out gang-related deaths, shootings, drive bys and initiations?

Does it matter? It’s still gun violence. Just because it happens in the wrong neighborhood by the wrong demographic of people doesn’t negate the fact that someone died from gunfire. South side of Chicago or someone up the Rattlesnake, someone is still dead.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the 2A. But we need to have a conversation as a country that addresses this, or we are going to keep burying kids.

 

[AZGrizFan]

What does the number look like when you back out gang-related deaths, shootings, drive bys and initiations?

Does it matter? It’s still gun violence. Just because it happens in the wrong neighborhood by the wrong demographic of people doesn’t negate the fact that someone died from gunfire. South side of Chicago or someone up the Rattlesnake, someone is still dead.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the 2A. But we need to have a conversation as a country that addresses this, or we are going to keep burying kids.

If by “it” you are referring to the mental health epidemic in this country, I 100% agree. If by “it” you mean more gun restrictions and useless laws (that punish the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners and that criminals don’t follow anyways) I 0% agree.

 

[RABIDAWG]

It’s the breakdown of traditional family values that us older folks grew up in. Youth were taught and held accountable by parents. One didn’t dare shame the family heritage. Fathers and mothers who disciplined their kids. Now the little shits cry and have tantrums if you take their smart phones/pads away. Religion is under attack, (except Islam, of course), and the values from faith based teachings are being canceled. If you are black or Mexican, how can you be proud of how you are presenting yourselves to the world with rioting, thuggery, smash & grab, with permission from liberal judges and politicians? What a terrible disservice to the fantastic humans of color who try to be upstanding citizens but shouted down for their common sense beliefs? This country is in trouble, and the clown show of political leaders are taking us down a fearful path. The breakdown of society in urban areas will show more gunfire as people declare that they have had enough of the street attacks, home break-ins, and business theft. I am bewildered in why more people don’t defend themselves with their God given right to do so. Thankful to live in Montana!

 

[AZGrizFan]

It’s the breakdown of traditional family values that us older folks grew up in. Youth were taught and held accountable by parents. One didn’t dare shame the family heritage. Fathers and mothers who disciplined their kids. Now the little shits cry and have tantrums if you take their smart phones/pads away. Religion is under attack, (except Islam, of course), and the values from faith based teachings are being canceled. If you are black or Mexican, how can you be proud of how you are presenting yourselves to the world with rioting, thuggery, smash & grab, with permission from liberal judges and politicians? What a terrible disservice to the fantastic humans of color who try to be upstanding citizens but shouted down for their common sense beliefs? This country is in trouble, and the clown show of political leaders are taking us down a fearful path. The breakdown of society in urban areas will show more gunfire as people declare that they have had enough of the street attacks, home break-ins, and business theft. I am bewildered in why more people don’t defend themselves with their God given right to do so. Thankful to live in Montana!

All true and all terrific reasons to not allow yourself to be disarmed by the government. (I would argue it’s not just Blacks or Mexicans doing the rioting and thuggery though…plenty of White POS’s involved in that shit too…see: ANTIFA).

 

[PDXGrizzly]

It’s the breakdown of traditional family values that us older folks grew up in. Youth were taught and held accountable by parents. One didn’t dare shame the family heritage. Fathers and mothers who disciplined their kids. Now the little poop cry and have tantrums if you take their smart phones/pads away. Religion is under attack, (except Islam, of course), and the values from faith based teachings are being canceled. If you are black or Mexican, how can you be proud of how you are presenting yourselves to the world with rioting, thuggery, smash & grab, with permission from liberal judges and politicians? What a terrible disservice to the fantastic humans of color who try to be upstanding citizens but shouted down for their common sense beliefs? This country is in trouble, and the clown show of political leaders are taking us down a fearful path. The breakdown of society in urban areas will show more gunfire as people declare that they have had enough of the street attacks, home break-ins, and business theft. I am bewildered in why more people don’t defend themselves with their God given right to do so. Thankful to live in Montana!

A long time ago I decided that I couldn’t defend my home with a firearm. Not that I’m against them (in fact, I own several), but due to the layout of my home, where my kids room is, density of my neighborhood, and other factors ( keeping a loaded and accessible gun when you have small and inquisitive children is insane to me), I just couldn’t do it. The risks were so much higher than the rewards. I can protect my family just fine with a tomahawk that I forged and an absurdly large Japanese bayonet. The sightlines and angles of my home essentially let me get super close. Most of my issue comes from people who know how much Sudafed a catalytic converter is worth.

As for the rest, I dunno. The ills of society are much deeper than the shift from the traditional nuclear family. Economic prosperity, dignity, generational trauma, personal trauma, so many factors. The end of the nuclear family was being decried in my youth in the 80s and 90s, so it’s not a new phenomenon. Times and society continue to change. I don’t think faith based values are under attack so much as the church itself. Too many scandals and non-inclusiveness have turned many from my generation and the following generations off.

I love this conversation! I’d love to continue this, but I think this thread will be locked or moved soon, lol.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

If by “it” you are referring to the mental health epidemic in this country, I 100% agree. If by “it” you mean more gun restrictions and useless laws (that punish the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners and that criminals don’t follow anyways) I 0% agree.

You do realize that the Venn diagram does overlap, the compromise is determining by how much.

 

[3-7-77]

Oh! Oh! OOOh! Gotta do something. But, WHAT? Better check on my guns.................
All present and accounted for, and in their locked cabinets. I got good guns, not like those bad guns that go around shooting themselves off.
ITS....NOT....THE....GUNS....LADIES! Its the trigger puller....."... pukes... the lowest form of life on Earth...." not even human f****** beings. You are nothing but unorganized grab-asstic pieces of amphibian s***! "
"Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills." Quotes from Sgt. Hartman, from "Full Metal Jacket."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093058/mediaviewer/rm2466224897?ft0=name&fv0=nm0000388&ft1=image_type&fv1=still_frame&ref_=tt_ch

 

[AZGrizFan]

If by “it” you are referring to the mental health epidemic in this country, I 100% agree. If by “it” you mean more gun restrictions and useless laws (that punish the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners and that criminals don’t follow anyways) I 0% agree.

You do realize that the Venn diagram does overlap, the compromise is determining by how much.

And a whole host of laws already apply to those folks who are in the overlapping area, yet they are unwilling or unable to enforce them, then shout ‘we need more laws’ every time something fairly predictable happens.

And for the record, I’m not a fan of letting the government determine who is “mentally unstable”. Because that is an open door to carte Blanche seizure of guns at their whim. Just like labeling parents who go against the school board as “domestic terrorists”…it’s a goddamned slippery slope and the folks making the decisions don’t always (in fact rarely) have good intentions.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Because the US has more bad, deranged and lawless people than the rest of the developed world. Europe, for example, doesn't have as many bad and deranged people who would go into a school and shoot kids. You could pass out pistols and AR-15's to everyone in Europe, and they wouldn't have the problem that the US does.

This is so deadpan that I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic or not…

I was serious.

 

[3-7-77]

"I'll give you my gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, dead hands" --Charlton Heston

The phrase gained newfound popularity following the 129th NRA convention, in Charlotte, North Carolina on May 20, 2000, when actor and then-president of the NRA, Charlton Heston, ended a speech by concluding:

When ordinary hands can possess such an extraordinary instrument, that symbolizes the full measure of human dignity and liberty. That's why those five words issue an irresistible call to us all, and we muster.

Heston then paused to pick up a replica of a flintlock long rifle and continued:[5]

So, as we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away, I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed, and especially for you, Mr. Gore: 'From my cold, dead hands!'[6]

— Charlton Heston, May 20, 2000

 

[sdk.catfish]

mthoopsfan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:39 pm

Because the US has more bad, deranged and lawless people than the rest of the developed world. Europe, for example, doesn't have as many bad and deranged people who would go into a school and shoot kids. You could pass out pistols and AR-15's to everyone in Europe, and they wouldn't have the problem that the US does.

Is there a source for this information or just a random thought for the day. Random thoughts are ok but if you have something a little more, shall we say scientific, I would be interested in reading it. If it is true that we have more bad and deranged people in the US wouldn't it make sense to possibly have a few more common sense controls on access so innocent kids don't get blown away for ringing doorbells or pulling into the wrong driveway or get shot at a birthday party? Seems like thoughts and prayers may not work in so well in such a deranged country.

 

[SoldierGriz]

mthoopsfan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:39 pm

Because the US has more bad, deranged and lawless people than the rest of the developed world. Europe, for example, doesn't have as many bad and deranged people who would go into a school and shoot kids. You could pass out pistols and AR-15's to everyone in Europe, and they wouldn't have the problem that the US does.

Is there a source for this information or just a random thought for the day. Random thoughts are ok but if you have something a little more, shall we say scientific, I would be interested in reading it. If it is true that we have more bad and deranged people in the US wouldn't it make sense to possibly have a few more common sense controls on access so innocent kids don't get blown away for ringing doorbells or pulling into the wrong driveway or get shot at a birthday party? Seems like thoughts and prayers may not work in so well in such a deranged country.

I don't know the facts here, but there are some crazy mofos in the countries I have "visited."

But, genuinely interested in what you think common sense controls might be.

 

[sdk.catfish]

But, genuinely interested in what you think common sense controls might be.

Very sure I don't wan't to get in an arguement or with you or others Soldier but I do have to take a test to get a drivers license (and must have a license to drive), must have insurance, and my vehicle's vim number is on record. Most people don't seem to have real problems with things like that. I don't think anyone needs a weapon made for war to kill a deer or elk for which I also need a license . Little things like that. I don't think people in the US are more deranged or have more mental health isssues than other countries or at least I have not seen the studies to prove it. I'm not anti gun - just pro kids. Last reply from me on this subject though.

 

[heightsgriz]

I would be curious to know: If you looked at everyone who used a gun in a crime over the past 40 years what percent grew up in a household with a Father present?
I never saw myself as "lucky" to have been raised in a two parent home because everyone I knew was just like me. We all had all kinds of guns in the house. We went out shooting for fun. We hunted. We knew the difference between all kinds of firearms. And yet, literally no one I have ever known has gotten in trouble with a gun. By the way - most of us could have been considered "poor" or at least lower middle class.
How is that possible?
Strong men who were raised by strong men are responsible for almost 0% of the gun crimes in this country.
I'll even go a step further and say that strong men who were raised by strong men are all that protect us from anarchy.
I thank God I grew up in Montana.
“The world is full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the further one gets from Missoula, Montana.” ― Norman Maclean, A River Runs through It.

 

[SoldierGriz]

But, genuinely interested in what you think common sense controls might be.

Very sure I don't wan't to get in an arguement or with you or others Soldier but I do have to take a test to get a drivers license (and must have a license to drive), must have insurance, and my vehicle's vim number is on record. Most people don't seem to have real problems with things like that. I don't think anyone needs a weapon made for war to kill a deer or elk for which I also need a license . Little things like that. I don't think people in the US are more deranged or have more mental health isssues than other countries or at least I have not seen the studies to prove it. I'm not anti gun - just pro kids. Last reply from me on this subject though.

No plans to argue. It's a messy problem. I don't mind some rules. I am a big proponent of safe storage, and expanded background checks. I am not so sure about red flag laws and registries. The 2A makes makes registries problematic...a problem that doesn't exist with cars.

Complicated.

 

[mthoopsfan]

mthoopsfan wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:39 pm

Because the US has more bad, deranged and lawless people than the rest of the developed world. Europe, for example, doesn't have as many bad and deranged people who would go into a school and shoot kids. You could pass out pistols and AR-15's to everyone in Europe, and they wouldn't have the problem that the US does.

Is there a source for this information or just a random thought for the day. Random thoughts are ok but if you have something a little more, shall we say scientific, I would be interested in reading it. If it is true that we have more bad and deranged people in the US wouldn't it make sense to possibly have a few more common sense controls on access so innocent kids don't get blown away for ringing doorbells or pulling into the wrong driveway or get shot at a birthday party? Seems like thoughts and prayers may not work in so well in such a deranged country.

Yes, there are multiple sources. Feel free to look them up. Or, provide your sources to the contrary. Thoughts and prayers work just like banning guns would work, maybe better.

 

[mthoopsfan]

But, genuinely interested in what you think common sense controls might be.

Very sure I don't wan't to get in an arguement or with you or others Soldier but I do have to take a test to get a drivers license (and must have a license to drive), must have insurance, and my vehicle's vim number is on record. Most people don't seem to have real problems with things like that. I don't think anyone needs a weapon made for war to kill a deer or elk for which I also need a license . Little things like that. I don't think people in the US are more deranged or have more mental health isssues than other countries or at least I have not seen the studies to prove it. I'm not anti gun - just pro kids. Last reply from me on this subject though.

So, you think taking a test or getting a license would prevent shooting deaths? Can you explain why you think that?

Do you have to take a test to buy a car? Should we pass a law saying a test/license is necessary to buy a car? Or, to shoot a gun?