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It's On! Be There!

getgrizzy said:
You also said:
My reaction was that the accuser's testimony, including some of her apparent reactions and communications after the incident, made her case look better and bigger than I had thought. She looks nice and is fairly articulate. Comes across fine or even good. Don't know why she was dressed with so much skin showing up high; no cleavage, though.

It is often true that a case looks pretty good when the prosecution starts the case and before any defense witnesses or important cross-examination. The accuser had not been cross-examined when I wrote that. Her lies and inconsistencies had not been brought out yet. Paoli did a very good job on cross, and, as 75 has said, the case was essentially over after she had been cross-examined.
 
It's crazy to me that Florio is still trying to make the case for the accuser and that she chooses egriz as the venue to continue her argument.

I think this case must have ruined her credibility so much that she is desperate to regain it if only her detractors could see her point of view.

That's a fools errand.
 
PlayerRep said:
getgrizzy said:
You also said:
My reaction was that the accuser's testimony, including some of her apparent reactions and communications after the incident, made her case look better and bigger than I had thought. She looks nice and is fairly articulate. Comes across fine or even good. Don't know why she was dressed with so much skin showing up high; no cleavage, though.

It is often true that a case looks pretty good when the prosecution starts the case and before any defense witnesses or important cross-examination. The accuser had not been cross-examined when I wrote that. Her lies and inconsistencies had not been brought out yet. Paoli did a very good job on cross, and, as 75 has said, the case was essentially over after she had been cross-examined.
That's a good point. Thanks for clarifying.
 
LongTimeCatFan said:
It's crazy to me that Florio is still trying to make the case for the accuser and that she chooses egriz as the venue to continue her argument.

I think this case must have ruined her credibility so much that she is desperate to regain it if only her detractors could see her point of view.

That's a fools errand.

Are you kidding? This case got her hired at the University Journalism school. :? :? :?
 
WSJ interview with Krakauer about the book:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/krakauers-new-book-on-campus-rape-1429234692" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In 2013, Jon Krakauer was at a Missoula, Mont., sentencing hearing for a college football player accused of rape. Transfixed by the victim’s steely testimony, the author of “Into Thin Air” and the classroom staple “Into the Wild” had a eureka moment: This might be a book. During a break, he approached one of the victim’s friends in the crowded courtroom.

“She was very, like, ‘Uh-oh, there’s this creepy old guy,’” said Mr. Krakauer, who just turned 61, in an interview. But she agreed to pass along a note to the victim. After Mr. Krakauer scribbled his name, the woman remembered “Into the Wild,” and blurted out: “They made us read your stupid book in high school!”

Mr. Krakauer’s “Missoula: Rape and the Justice System in a College Town,” due Tuesday from Doubleday, tracks a number of sexual-assault cases involving students at the University of Montana. The publisher plans an initial run of 500,000 copies, reflecting the timely matchup of a best-selling writer and a hot-button issue.

“Missoula” lands just weeks after a scathing report from Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism on Rolling Stone’s now-discredited article alleging a gang rape in a University of Virginia fraternity.


The book goes beyond the drumbeat of news reports and statistics, examining the subject through the prism of picturesque Missoula, a small city dominated by a university with a popular football team. Mr. Krakauer dissects several sexual-assault cases that happened between 2010 and 2012 and tracks their progress through the University of Montana, the Missoula Police Department and the Missoula County Attorney’s Office. In 2012, the U.S. Department of Justice began investigating how the university and local authorities were handling sexual-assault cases, leading to changes in procedures. In Mr. Krakauer’s book, the outcomes of the cases for the accused rapists ranged from being dropped for lack of evidence to prison.

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While he was a student at Hampshire College during the 1970s, a girlfriend told him she had been raped, Mr. Krakauer said. At the time he grasped neither the breadth of the problem nor its consequences. But in 2012, after learning that a friend had been preyed upon as a teenager and again as a young woman, he began reading up on sexual assault. He hadn’t intended to write about the problem, just to get a sense of its frequency and effect.

“I’m kind of an obsessive type,” Mr. Krakauer said. “Once you just start digging, if you just tell yourself ‘No, just keep digging, another few shovel holes,’ you find that inevitably there’s always stuff there buried deep.”

Relying on police reports, recordings of university disciplinary proceedings, court documents and other material, Mr. Krakauer knits diverse—and often conflicting—memories and motivations into a narrative. He depicts victims and the accused, their families and friends, university officials, law-enforcement authorities, lawyers and health professionals. Through heated exchanges among officials, Mr. Krakauer portrays the pressures on institutions and authorities to respect the rights of both accuser and accused in complex cases with life-destroying consequences.

Mr. Krakauer also talked to psychologists and scholars about the trauma of rape, exploring the corrosive toll of sexual assault on a typical American college town. “Missoula” revisits how the encounters unfolded, the victims’ anguish about coming forward and the alleged rapists’ horror and disbelief at being accused. One victim and the man accused of raping her had been friends since first grade, but never romantically linked.

One takeaway from “Missoula” is that every incident of alleged rape is different, and ambiguities abound. Mr. Krakauer provides no sweeping conclusions. The age-old problem of rape by nonstrangers can only be solved incrementally, he said, and recent improvements in how cases are handled are encouraging.

“I write these books for things that I become obsessed with. I don’t delude myself into thinking I’m going to change the world,” he said.

Campus rape isn’t a recent epidemic, Mr. Krakauer added, but rather “a scourge that’s always been there and it’s just now coming to light because women are being emboldened” to come forward.

“Into the Wild,” Mr. Krakauer’s first best seller, was about a young adventurer who expired in the Alaskan wilderness. Published in 1996, the book is a perennial on high-school and college syllabuses. The author followed with “Into Thin Air,” a first-person account of an Everest expedition in which a number of people died. He then wrote “Under the Banner of Heaven,” about murder among a Mormon splinter group, and “Where Men Win Glory,” on the life and death of football star turned Army Ranger, Pat Tillman. At first, the shift in subject flummoxed his publishers, Mr. Krakauer said. An editor asked: “Jon, where are the mountains?” But readers gobbled these up, too.

Despite his success, Mr. Krakauer doesn’t strive to be a public figure and is seldom recognized. “Missoula” has been kept under wraps, and no book tour is in the works. But he has one appearance on his calendar—in Montana, where some saw their community as unfairly singled out.

“I felt I needed to do something in Missoula to allow my critics to confront me,” he said. Fact & Fiction, a local bookstore, is organizing an event next month, said Eamon Fahey, the store’s chief operating officer. To allow for a big audience, the event will be held not at the store but a nearby hotel.

Asked which schools now deal effectively with sexual-assault complaints, Mr. Krakauer said, “Ironically, I think the University of Montana probably has it somewhat right because the DOJ forced them to get it right.”

According to a statement from the University of Montana, the school is “stronger, safer and better aligned with best practices because of our continuing work on policies, training and programs—both those implemented before the federal government’s investigations and since.”
 
One victim and the man accused of raping her had been friends since first grade, but never romantically linked.
Which was the single case of a conviction for this offense in the time period involving a UM athlete, involved no violence, involved copious amounts of alcohol on the part of both parties, and so even though it did not happen on campus, and the relationship had nothing to do with his athlete status, it was therefore considered a "campus" rape, and an "athlete" rape, in order to have anything to talk about.

And even though it was not a campus rape, and was reported and directly prosecuted, it is lumped into the "problems" regarding "handling" of campus rapes, just to show ... ?

Even thought it was "handled" exactly as a felony should be.
 
Campus rape isn’t a recent epidemic, Mr. Krakauer added, but rather “a scourge that’s always been there and it’s just now coming to light because women are being emboldened” to come forward.
The problem is, it isn't an epidemic. That's a "Narrative" that happens to be false.

Unfortunately for Krakauer, ace investigator, his entire premise was demolished (after his book was completed) by a Department of Justice study released in December, 2014 that shows that females attending college are less likely to be a victim of rape than the same age cohort of the general population. College campuses are, in fact, a safer place to be. That's a problem for the "Narrative."

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/12/19/rape-on-campus-not-as-prevalent-as-it-is-off-campus/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And, during the time frame, the University of Montana happened to be one of the safer campuses to be on, nearly ten times safer, for instance, than the general residents of Kalispell, Montana, and in most years a safer place than its sister campus at MSU where, during this time frame, a faculty member had been using his position over a period of time to rape and assault multiple students, including high school students associated with his program, on campus and on University-sponsored trips, and with the complicit knowledge of some of his department colleagues. Outcome? No police, internal, confidential investigation, no publicity, no uproar over "handling" of such accusations, no "justice."

But, the perpetrator wasn't an athlete and the President of that institution was determined to avoid adverse publicity to her school. Enrollment there continues to increase.
 
“I felt I needed to do something in Missoula to allow my critics to confront me,” he said. Fact & Fiction, a local bookstore, is organizing an event next month, said Eamon Fahey, the store’s chief operating officer. To allow for a big audience, the event will be held not at the store but a nearby hotel.

OH, how I wish I could be there. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
 
UMGriz75 said:
One victim and the man accused of raping her had been friends since first grade, but never romantically linked.
Which was the single case of a conviction for this offense in the time period involving a UM athlete, involved no violence, involved copious amounts of alcohol on the part of both parties, and so even though it did not happen on campus, and the relationship had nothing to do with his athlete status, it was therefore considered a "campus" rape, and an "athlete" rape, in order to have anything to talk about.

And even though it was not a campus rape, and was reported and directly prosecuted, it is lumped into the "problems" regarding "handling" of campus rapes, just to show ... ?

Well, they were college students, ergo.... :? :lol: :roll:
 
UMGriz75 said:
One victim and the man accused of raping her had been friends since first grade, but never romantically linked.
Which was the single case of a conviction for this offense in the time period involving a UM athlete, involved no violence, involved copious amounts of alcohol on the part of both parties, and so even though it did not happen on campus, and the relationship had nothing to do with his athlete status, it was therefore considered a "campus" rape, and an "athlete" rape, in order to have anything to talk about.

And even though it was not a campus rape, and was reported and directly prosecuted, it is lumped into the "problems" regarding "handling" of campus rapes, just to show ... ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_rape" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Campus rape is the rape of a student attending an institute of higher learning, such as a college or university, though not all reported incidents of students being raped occur on campus property.
 
The DOJ study also showed that, rather than becoming an "epidemic," the national rate of campus sexual assault has been in a steady decline, declining from 9 per 1,000 students per year in the time period 1997-2002, to 4.5 per 1,000 students in the most recent reporting year, 2013. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Epidemic" is a technical term that usually means the rapid increase, or outbreak, of a disease within a short period of time. Clearly, the word is being misused, Krakauer using it for its political utility, and not for its accuracy. Indeed, his use of the word is simply dishonest. What has actually happened, on a national scale, is the opposite of an "epidemic," but there is no money and fame in saying that.

Over the recent period of time, the rate on college campuses overall has declined by 50%, which is in fact an extraordinary decline in any crime rate over such a short period of time.

At UM, in 2013, nine sexual-related crimes were reported on and off campus. http://www.umt.edu/police/docs/AnnualSecurityFireSafetyReport.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That means that UM had 0.7 sexual assaults per 1,000 students, compared to the national average of college campuses of 4.5 assaults per 1,000 students. A UM female has only 15% of the risk of such an assault as a female at the average college campus in the United States. A UM female has just 12% of the risk of such an assault as a female of the same age group that chose not to attend college.

Not only are college females significantly safer than their non-college peers, females who choose to attend the University of Montana are among the safest, by far, of any similarly situated age group, college or non-college.

Didn't read that in the Missoulian, did you?

Engstrom could never bring himself to utter the horrible words in defense of his institution.


Krakauer surely has nailed the problem with a book entitled "Missoula."
 
getgrizzy said:
Campus rape is the rape of a student attending an institute of higher learning, such as a college or university, though not all reported incidents of students being raped occur on campus property.
"UM student raped on Spring Break in Mexico!"

"Campus rape" ... or not?
 
UMGriz75 said:
getgrizzy said:
Campus rape is the rape of a student attending an institute of higher learning, such as a college or university, though not all reported incidents of students being raped occur on campus property.
"UM student raped on Spring Break in Mexico!"

"Campus rape" ... or not?

Well, by Wikipedia's fucked up definition....yes. :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
Here is one delusional take on Krakauer's argument. I wonder if the actual book will be as delusional?


http://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/the-victims-are-the-heroes-of-missoula#.lm92Kme09" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
There are even repercussions for the female reporters who cover other women’s sexual assaults. I’m not the only one who was slammed for covering Missoula — Gwen Florio, a former senior reporter for the Missoulian, was viciously attacked by both county officials and readers for her persistent and sympathetic coverage. But without Florio’s reporting, Krakauer writes, women wouldn’t have continued to come forward to the press, the Department of Justice wouldn’t have launched its investigation, and today’s reforms wouldn’t exist.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, THAT'S what it was. Persistent and sympathetic. Not even remotely ACCURATE, but WTF, I mean she was only a fucking REPORTER for Christ's sake. :roll: :roll: :roll:

It's more important that it be persistent and sympathetic reporting, apparently. :? :?
 
Sympathetic? Aren't reporters just supposed to report the facts? Yeah, I am not really that naïve. I know their agenda often colors their reporting but when they do choose to editorialize (in this case distort) they run the risk of being part of the story rather than just the teller of the story. Florio injected herself firmly into the narrative and deserves whatever criticism due to her for doing so. Anyway, isn't the victim the one due sympathy? And by that I of course mean the falsely accused... No sympathy there that I have seen her report.
 
Sabrina Erdely certainly deserves the descriptor "sympathetic" in her coverage of the University of Virginia "Rape Scandal." That was the problem.

"Sympathy" overcame integrity and the need for facts. Indeed, that is why nobody got fired at Rolling Stone; they viewed themselves as committing every journalistic wrong because they were "sympathetic" to the victim, and such intentions excuse any normal exercise of integrity and even basic honesty. It is a variation on the refrain that "because we claim to do good, we also claim the right to be automatically excused from the evil we cause."

"Sympathy" destroyed every reputation involved: the deranged victim, the accused fraternity, the University, the reporting system at UVa, the national magazine, the reporter and, as widely noted, genuine victims everywhere.

"Sympathy" isn't a good word to use because it instantly implies, even encourages, emotional corruption in the fact-gathering process, but sure enough, there are people out there ....

However, "sympathy" is not what drove the UM non-scandal. None of the several victims of the violent rapes committed by the wealthy Muslim student at the same time got an ounce of it from the Missoulian or Gwen Florio. It served none of the "ulterior" motives which now drive coverage.

Rather, this was all about a Privileged, White, Non-gay, Male, Christian Athlete -- the popular star Quarterback of a nationally prominent football team -- who, in the Social Justice Narrative, represents the Ground Zero of the Social Justice Narrative, and therefore "deserved" to be accused and convicted regardless of the facts. And that is what Florio set out to do, assessing that the "story" -- properly told -- would assure her own fame and fortune as a result of assisting in and promoting the destruction of others.
 
'Nevertheless, I was attacked for smearing Missoula’s good name, as if it were my fault that four football players were accused of gang-raping a woman,'

When was this? If I remember didn't the roommate tell the police that it was her idea.


"Missoula demonstrates that it’s not only possible but advantageous for reporters to remain clear-eyed while also taking victims’ concerns into account. Krakauer skillfully strengthens his sources’ recollections

Clear-eyed! Florio was anything but!

Don't do any work yourself but just take recollections from sources, please see above for clear-eyed
 
'Nevertheless, I was attacked for smearing Missoula’s good name, as if it were my fault that four football players were accused of gang-raping a woman,'

When was this? If I remember didn't the roommate tell the police that it was her idea.

Well, while written in a somewhat prejudicial way, that is an accurate statement. There were such accusations.
 
Perhaps the Klu Klux Klan will organize a book burning of the book "Missoula" right down town to show the racist attitude of women rapists.
The "friends of women" group from Chicago want to protest the lack of equal time at a fund raising event during the book "Missoula" opening debut.
A group gathering of the Rainbow family's summer outing may postponed until the reaction of the book "Missoula" is understood.
RE is considering closing UM until Krakauer's book (Missoula) is sold out.
Alpha1 is considering the total ban on alcohol until the book is read out loud by the Missoula mayor.
Getgrizzly...will sign all books "Missoula" that are stained with beet juice to remind high school students not to attend UM.
It's ON! Be There! What a gas of a joke....
 
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