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GRIZ/UND game thread

i've actually been feeling rather sanguine about this team--and the season. here's why.

--we lost to usf by one point, but usf has gone on to do very well this year. they did lose to gonzaga by ten at home, but were in second place in the tough wcc at that time. they just lost to byu by five, but that's well within the margin of the reffing handicap you always have to overcome in provo.

--watched kansas state beat kansas the other night on espn, and began to wonder how the hell unc ever beat kstate at kstate when kansas couldn't even do it. no matter. we lost to unc in o/t on their home court.

--okay, we were not at our best in grand forks, but c'mon, these are kids. not only had they just lost a heartbreaker in greeley, travel must be freakin' difficult right now on the back end of possibly the most gruelling trip of the year.

--mario dunn is emerging as the star we thought he might be. okay, he's still a freshman. but he's getting better and better, emerging game by game like one of those old polaroid photos.

--with the shooters we have, you're never really out of a game--or a season. if we get hot at tournament time, we could run the table.

--tinkle's teams almost always get better as the season rolls on. i may question his substituion patterns, redshirt policy and why the hell andy martin got so few minutes in so many of the pre-season games, but what the hell. all's well that ends well. i've just got a gut feeling this year ends well for us.
 
This was much closer game than 17 turnovers would ordinarily suggest.

Overall, the Griz played well. Frankly, they outplayed ND. There were some outstanding individual performances. Gregory in the first half, Jamar and Weisner in the second. Dunn. Andy did some good defensive work for the short time he was in.

You just can't win with 17 turnovers and that was singularly uncharacteristic of this team.
 
There's blame to go around for everyone...players and coaches. On the radio Wayne questioned the players and said that they didn't have a good week of practice and that they seemed to have a let down coming into the last two games. Maybe there is truth to that and there definitely were mistakes made by the players.

Whether or not he says it on the radio, I hope the coaching staff look in the mirror as well. The mistakes aren't all on the players. I'd agree with some of the questionable substitutions at strange times...taking a guy out when he's hot...giving guys substantial minutes when they don't contribute much...not playing guys that can rebound, etc.

Most on this thread agree this game was lost largely due to the number of turnovers by UM. I agree with that. Even though they aren't on the court, the coaches contributed to the turnovers in this game.

All year we really haven't any any good inbounds plays when bringing in the ball under our basket. We usually are lucky to just get the ball in and seldom get a good shot out of it. In this game several turnovers came just because we couldn't get the ball inbounds cleanly within 5 seconds. I don't believe this all falls on execution of the players especially since it's been a problem all year, at least with respect to getting scoring chances. A division 1 coaching staff should be able to solve that and create scoring opportunities or at a minimum at least get the ball in bounds without a problem.

Also, this coaching staff allows a lot of individual 1 on 1, 1 on 2, 1 on 3, 1 on 4, 1 on 5, and 1 on 8 (counting the refs lol) dribble penetration that goes too far at times. There does need to be some breaking down of the defense this way but too often we have one guy dribbling out the shot clock until he gets the shot he wants. That often happens with a couple guys on the team. Many times it works out but today it didn't and that was a reason for many of the turnovers. Yes, you can blame the individual players for committing those turnovers but you also need to put some blame on the coaches for allowing that style of play. Honestly, even when that style of play does work out it can be detrimental to the team because everyone else is left standing around and they aren't involved. Over the long haul, your offense can be much less effective as a unit.

Perfect examples of how that proved to be true can be seen in the NCAA games against Wisconsin and Syracuse. We never had a chance in those games playing that way. While we probably wouldn't have won either of those games, we could have been much more competitive by playing more team ball with quicker passing/swinging the ball and finding the best time to attack than what we do much of the time....way to much holding and dribbling the ball individually.

Yes, the players need to step up and play with more maturity and heart, but the coaching staff has a part to play in this as well.
 
boy do i ever agree with you, agent g, on the issue of passing the ball. it's not just our griz. there's way too much one on one, both pro and college. too much solo, not enough quintet. if i were a coach, i'd line my players up on the baseline. i'd tell them this was a contest, between them and the ball--start running. toss the ball to the other end of the court--stop running. i'd repeat this over and over till the players learned: you cannot outrun the ball! and no defense can keep up with the ball when it's being passed crisply around the court. i'd have offensive drills where the ball never touched the court. you put the ball on the floor, you come off the court.

the dunk was once the great home run, but the real beauty of basketball is in the passing. i suppose you've got to feed your egos, but for me, it's ruining basketball. i'll watch a college football game--a lot of them, actually--but i hardly ever sit down to watch a college basketball game anymore. football has speeded up; basketball has slowed down. hot potato, hot potato. that would bring the fans back. i'm waiting for the coach to execute my vision.
 
citay said:
boy do i ever agree with you, agent g, on the issue of passing the ball. it's not just our griz. there's way too much one on one, both pro and college. too much solo, not enough quintet. if i were a coach, i'd line my players up on the baseline. i'd tell them this was a contest, between them and the ball--start running. toss the ball to the other end of the court--stop running. i'd repeat this over and over till the players learned: you cannot outrun the ball! and no defense can keep up with the ball when it's being passed crisply around the court. i'd have offensive drills where the ball never touched the court. you put the ball on the floor, you come off the court.

the dunk was once the great home run, but the real beauty of basketball is in the passing. i suppose you've got to feed your egos, but for me, it's ruining basketball. i'll watch a college football game--a lot of them, actually--but i hardly ever sit down to watch a college basketball game anymore. football has speeded up; basketball has slowed down. hot potato, hot potato. that would bring the fans back. i'm waiting for the coach to execute my vision.
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I agree. Most college games are now identical to one another. But, Syracuse, and I hate to say it, quite often Duke, eschew the perimeter passing game preferring to at least try to score points. Syracuse is fun to watch...not many others lately.
 
citay said:
boy do i ever agree with you, agent g, on the issue of passing the ball. it's not just our griz. there's way too much one on one, both pro and college. too much solo, not enough quintet. if i were a coach, i'd line my players up on the baseline. i'd tell them this was a contest, between them and the ball--start running. toss the ball to the other end of the court--stop running. i'd repeat this over and over till the players learned: you cannot outrun the ball! and no defense can keep up with the ball when it's being passed crisply around the court. i'd have offensive drills where the ball never touched the court. you put the ball on the floor, you come off the court.

the dunk was once the great home run, but the real beauty of basketball is in the passing. i suppose you've got to feed your egos, but for me, it's ruining basketball. i'll watch a college football game--a lot of them, actually--but i hardly ever sit down to watch a college basketball game anymore. football has speeded up; basketball has slowed down. hot potato, hot potato. that would bring the fans back. i'm waiting for the coach to execute my vision.
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Great example of a team that really shared the ball well was the 2005-2006 team that beat Nevada. #4 in the country at the end of the year in assists per game as a team. That also helped the Griz to a #5 ranking in FG% as a team that year.

Interestingly enough Utah is #12 in the country in assists per game this year and #3 in the country for FG%.

However it wasn't our offense that killed us this game. We shot over 50% from the field. It was the turnovers mostly...and for a good stretch of the game our defense really let us down again.

This year we are one of the worst (#325) in FG% defense allowing the other team to shoot 47.9%, one of the worst (#336) in rebounding margin getting outrebounded by 6.3 a game, and horrible even in shots blocked per game at 2.7 (#282). Our 3pt% Defense is bad too, #292 in that category allowing opposing teams to shoot 37.2% from 3.

Our offense actually ranks fairly well statistically (except in assists per game) at #37 in FG%, #32 in 3pt percentage and #17 in turnovers per game. The assists per game are low likely due to us having no inside threat 90% of the time. Basically playing 4 on 5 offensively so often has made us focus on 1 on 1 matchups and dropped our assists per game a ton. I'm not too worried about our offense though even with that problem.

Even though I also hate to see us rely so much on 1 on 1 matchups instead of passing it around like we used to be very good at, our offense is not the problem. Our interior defense is beyond pathetic right now and Tinkle even mentioned that it got Better when we went with small ball. That should not happen.
 
Good posts Citay and Potomac. With regards to your point that the game was lost because of turnovers (I agree) and that the offense wasn't the problem...while the field goal percentage was good, that statistic doesn't take into account the turnovers that mostly came from poor inbounding plays and guys trying to force things individually...we didn't even get a shot on those possessions and many of those turnovers ended up in very easy buckets for UND. So it actually does reflect on the offense.

I'm not saying that all problems will be solved if we corrected those issues. We all know the problems with the inside game, our defensive lapses, etc. I just had to point out something that's bugged me for a while and it kind of came to a head in this game.

Overall I think Tinkle and his staff do a good job. Just like the players could work harder and do better for the parts they play, this is an area the coaches can work on.
 
I do agree we have struggled with inbounding on our end of the court.

Defensively, we do have a solution and difference maker for paint defense. The problem is he always leans and hacks when he goes to block shots. Seriously, if Andy Martin will just keep his arms and body straight up when he goes for blocks, it would make a huge impact on our opponent's FG%. If anyone has time, watch as many of the games as you would like. You will see how Andy picks up most of his fouls.

I pray with age and experience Andy will learn what kind of impact he is capable of making defensively to this team.

As for personnel and decision making, I feel we should have committed more minutes to developing Kemp and Martin this season. Andy is our best paint defender for his length. Kemp can score, and rebound. He just needs to be comfortable out there and not looking over his shoulder. I know it is tough for coaches to have patience to see players through growing pains. I feel in this case, patience with these 2 players would have been paying off for the better late in the season, when it counts. At this stage of this season, I feel the team has much more to gain, than to lose by doing this for the remainder of the regular season. This is the one thing I would like to see the staff commit to for rest of this season.

We shall see what the staff and team have in store for us this next week. Looks like we are likely to be 11-9 or 10-10 in conference play this season. For me, that is disappointing. I was expecting 6 or 7 conference losses this season.

Come on boys, let's win out this season!!!!!
 
citay said:
boy do i ever agree with you, agent g, on the issue of passing the ball. it's not just our griz. there's way too much one on one, both pro and college. too much solo, not enough quintet. if i were a coach, i'd line my players up on the baseline. i'd tell them this was a contest, between them and the ball--start running. toss the ball to the other end of the court--stop running. i'd repeat this over and over till the players learned: you cannot outrun the ball! and no defense can keep up with the ball when it's being passed crisply around the court. i'd have offensive drills where the ball never touched the court. you put the ball on the floor, you come off the court.

the dunk was once the great home run, but the real beauty of basketball is in the passing. i suppose you've got to feed your egos, but for me, it's ruining basketball. i'll watch a college football game--a lot of them, actually--but i hardly ever sit down to watch a college basketball game anymore. football has speeded up; basketball has slowed down. hot potato, hot potato. that would bring the fans back. i'm waiting for the coach to execute my vision.
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I completely agree with this. The closest thing I see on TV to a team that moves the ball well is Gonzaga.
 
Great thread. A lot of perceptive comments from loyal Griz fans who want this talented but achilles-heeled team to finally put all the pieces together.

The amazing thing about this week's two road losses is that the Griz were literally two (very close) treys away from beating UNC (heartbreaking rimmers at that), and one brief stretch (end of the first half) away from pulling away from NDak early. Some really unlucky breaks.

There was one video shot midway through the second half Saturday where it looked like coach T was actually trying to pull his hair out!

I think most of the comments in this thread are very perceptive. But I'd like to add one more point: The Griz have long had an excellent inside-outside, PASSING GAME, originally coined from Marv Harshman's classic Hi-Lo (initially introduced at Montana by Jud Heathcote). Want to see how it works? Watch the Lady Griz, who run a clean & classic rendition. The men have always had other wrinkles, but the offenses are cut from the same original design. So, it's a historically successful offensive look. The problem? The Griz can't consistently run it this year! (or, toward the end of last season either). I don't want to blame anyone, BUT, the hi-lo flexes opponents' defenses (collapse & expand) by relying on passes into one of two post positions (hi or lo!) and then #1 -- attacking from the post or, #2 -- kicking to the perimeter when the d collapses. The Griz passing game works from both wings, and the tip of the key, and the baseline.

It's usually contingent upon a post player, a 4 or 5, catching the ball. Won't work as well otherwise, particularly from the hi position. Last night they ran it using guards or wings at the hi, but it works better with a taller player who can pass over the defense to the baseline.

Well... it ain't working this year. So, the 2013-14 Griz are relegated to a combo of alternate dribble-enter penetration plays. By my view, the Griz are remarkably competitive this year despite not being able to run about three fifths of their historic passing game offense!

So, they've relied primarily on a dribble enter scheme to collapse defenses. As Mario Dunn continues to mature, as Citay perceptively notes, they'll continue to improve. And, good lord, Mike Weisner played the post very, very well for his size & weight, through most of the second half Saturday. But he's a very small post & can't really post up, given his size.

Despite it all, the Griz were close. But, a loss is a loss. As a result, coach Tinkle's comments changed dramatically Saturday. He now is plainly articulating that the Griz are running out of time. Last Wednesday the Griz could still (numerically) win the Big Sky. Now they are in danger of fighting for their survival (given another couple of wins by the resurgent Bobcats) if they drop any single home game or three games total.

Amazingly to me, this Griz team is still in the hunt. And, I believe, our coaches are working miracles (despite some problems on inbounds plays). I even saw at least two new dribble enter looks (where Mario Dunn posted up & scored!). As I see it, future success may well come from Dunn and Mike Weisner providing the keys to late season success for the Griz.

I frankly do not believe Montana will be able to effectively run its complete hi-lo for the rest of the year. So, small ball it is, I guess. But that means they'll have to be able to come up with a few more wrinkles on their dribble enter schemes.

Some years key players step up big at crunch time. Let's hope.

I honestly believe that Mr. T is doing the coaching job of his career with the obstacles he's facing. Let's hope he can pull a few more tricks out of his bag of plays.
 
GrizLA said:
Damn..that very white, very overweight crowd is the most laid back crowd I have ever seen in a college basketball game..
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Wow, well that's mean! Our crowds are not very good though as it mostly consists of 70+ year olds. The students rarely show up to games unless there is some sort of free give away thing and even then they are quiet and sitting on their phones. I think the only way that will change is if we actually win the Big Sky sometime but that is not going to happen anytime soon with Jones as our HC.
 
Saw a show today "Grizzly Talk?" interviewing Kareem. He said he was trying be one of the leaders but it wasn't a natural role and he didn't seem too comfortable with it. I think he was happiest when he was second man to someone like Cherry.
 
Good points grizzly. I agree that we've had to use dribble penetration a lot more this year because of the deficiencies inside and we have the talent to do that. My criticism relates to the times when we just hold and dribble the ball for a large portion of the shot clock without any movement. It's pretty easy for a defense to guard a team doing that when they aren't made to move and adjust like they would need to do with more movement before we attack. I'm talking about the times when we have one guy (I'm not singling out any particular player) dribble and dribble and dribble while they wait for back screens or start to penetrate and then back out or try a couple spins and then reset, etc. We would be more effective with the dribble penetration to create better shots for the dribbler and/or teammates spotting up or cutting if it involves more ball movement before we attack. When they do that and use screens away from the ball, backdoor cuts, etc., we can be more effective and more players would be involved than the normal guys scoring most of the points. It would break the defense down more often and we'd get more easy layups and dunks that many other teams seem to get on us.
 
You're absolutely correct, Agent G. When you don't have a Mathias Ward at the hi post (who can shoot, drive or lob a pass to the post on the baseline when the D shifts up), then the opposing team can hedge up by trapping your perimeter players, which NDak did well. I think at least 4 of our turnovers resulted from lack of penetration on the dribble enter, resulting in a safety pass that was anticipated by a NDak defender for a breakaway.
 
GrizLA said:
Damn..that very white, very overweight crowd is the most laid back crowd I have ever seen in a college basketball game..
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The basketball fan base is mostly a geriatric crowd. When I get to Grand Forks and watch a game, my 80 something parents go on and on about who died and who's now in a nursing home of the regular fans

The nearly 12k fans that attend the hockey games are much younger. The UND team is full of NHL draftees and play in an NHL quality rink. Basketball just doesn't have the star power. How a family a four or five can afford season tickets is beyond me, but they support - with their $30 tickets for 20 games - much of the UND athletic program. Yesterday was TJ Oshie celebration day, as alum Oshie scored the winning shoutout goal against the Ruskies. With Oshie, American captain Parise, and Canadian Toews, UND sports quite the Oympian connection with hockey. UND women are even moreso represented, as UND has placed women on the American, Finnish, German, Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian national teams. Its a go to place for Europeans and Americans that want to improve they hockey game.
 
In theory, I understand the "UND is a hockey school" and Weber is a BB school" arguments to support poor attendance at other sports. But it could be argued that Montana is a football school (with App gone, we'll lead FCS in attendance for the foreseeable future), but we're still able to draw 4,000 for the average men's game and 3500 for women's games. Basically, I think it's a crutch to excuse poor attendance.
 
Football isn't going head to head with basketball
Basketball was at 2 and hockey was at 7 the day we played montana
Being from out of town it's hard to get to a Thursday game
Hockey is Friday and Saturday much easier to attend
 
EverettGriz said:
In theory, I understand the "UND is a hockey school" and Weber is a BB school" arguments to support poor attendance at other sports. But it could be argued that Montana is a football school (with App gone, we'll lead FCS in attendance for the foreseeable future), but we're still able to draw 4,000 for the average men's game and 3500 for women's games. Basically, I think it's a crutch to excuse poor attendance.
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Back in UND's DII days, basketball was a much bigger draw. We used to average what Montana does for both men's and women's basketball. Some years basketball averaged what hockey does. When the Ralph was built, that all changed. Hockey attendance doubled or tripled from what it was, because the Ralph became THE place. The Ralph has an event and hotels fill up with out of towners. A smaller Betty was opened, and basketball crowds became smaller, as the Betty can't hold 3200. The atmosphere in the Ralph is often spine tingling, and the younger crowd loves the interactive video boards and music and food. My elderly parents don't like it because its too loud with the crowd and video boards and they are afraid of falling just getting to seats. The Betty just can't compete except among the geriatric crowd who don't like noise or the idea of falling from heights. Most people are not going to two events the same day. The Ralph could host basketball, but the weekends the men are gone the women's hockey team plays there or else there is a concert or like this coming weekend the state hockey tournament. When the Ralph hosts basketball, 8000 is not uncommon, but its been a couple years. The Ralph is a draw, period, and anything else (whether HS hockey, football, basketball or UND basketball and football) has gone down in attendance because people save their money for Ralph tickets.
 
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