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Griz - ISU Game

GrizLA said:
HelenaHandBasket said:
So exactly what I said.

Not exactly, but you get the drift.

No, it is exactly. Everyone knows the Griz struggle with everything you noted, but usually the defensive effort makes up for some of these shortcomings. The defensive effort tonight was one of the worst, if not the worst, that I have seen under TD.
 
fanofzoo said:
Sweet Jesus I'm glad to be getting old and spaced out the game, had a good nights sleep.

Well, the rest of us were having nightmares! But one good thing: Owens was back. Not sure where he went but we need him. Especially with Scott Blakney...whatever.
 
A few thoughts:

1. The Weber game was like one of those old 15 round heavyweight fights where the fighters literally almost kill each other and neither fighter is ever the same after. Obviously both teams will bounce back, but I don’t think it was just a coincidence that both played their worst game of the season on Saturday. Flush this game from memory and move on.

2. The 4 starters other than Whitney combined for 10p/1r/1a.

3. In the last 6 conference games, the Griz has 1 starter that has scored 1, 3, 3, 2, 4, and 2. And another that has scored 2, 4, 2, 4 ,4 and 5. And 3 of those games were against Idaho, ISU and NAU. You can start 2 defensive specialists and beat the bottom half of the league, but I don’t think you can start 2 and beat the top 4. You can’t afford to start the first 4 minutes of each half with that line-up. And that is not a knock on the players. Everyone on this team contributes and certain combinations of players can be used at various points during the game, but I am just not sure starting each game and 2nd half is one of them.

5. And finally, this is just a difficult team to get your arms around. If the starters played the bench, I am not sure who I would bet on.
 
GrizBall said:
5. And finally, this is just a difficult team to get your arms around. If the starters played the bench, I am not sure who I would bet on.

“Depth” is a great thing…unless it’s just another way of saying there are no standouts. :lol: :lol: 10 slightly above average players ain’t gonna get you anywhere. No Rorie. No Akoh. No Pridgett. No Breunig. No Oguine. Nobody even remotely like any of those guys.
 
AZGrizFan said:
GrizBall said:
5. And finally, this is just a difficult team to get your arms around. If the starters played the bench, I am not sure who I would bet on.

“Depth” is a great thing…unless it’s just another way of saying there are no standouts. :lol: :lol: 10 slightly above average players ain’t gonna get you anywhere. No Rorie. No Akoh. No Pridgett. No Breunig. No Oguine. Nobody even remotely like any of those guys.
Bannan's numbers as a soph stack up with any of those guys the same year (Breunig not being a Griz), but they all had another one or more all league type guys on the floor with them so I agree with your thesis. Not a lot of margin for error with this group.
 
Hoops watcher said:
AZGrizFan said:
“Depth” is a great thing…unless it’s just another way of saying there are no standouts. :lol: :lol: 10 slightly above average players ain’t gonna get you anywhere. No Rorie. No Akoh. No Pridgett. No Breunig. No Oguine. Nobody even remotely like any of those guys.
Bannan's numbers as a soph stack up with any of those guys the same year (Breunig not being a Griz), but they all had another one or more all league type guys on the floor with them so I agree with your thesis. Not a lot of margin for error with this group.

Yes, in a vacuum Bannon is good—if you base it strictly off numbers. I’m talking court presence. Leadership. A “go to” guy when the going got tough. I wouldn’t call Bannon any of those things. Not saying he CAN’T be, but he isn’t right now.
 
Hoops watcher said:
Trapped in a textbook trap game. It happens. Should have stopped at Lava Hot Springs on the trip from Ogden.
Interesting observation, RE mentally spent and trap games: On Saturday, Duke went into North Carolina and absolutely stomped the Tarheels, 87-67. A little while ago, the lost at home to Virginia ... only by a point, but still a loss that drops them out of sole possession of the lead in the ACC.

Just an observation. :?
 
AZGrizFan said:
Hoops watcher said:
Bannan's numbers as a soph stack up with any of those guys the same year (Breunig not being a Griz), but they all had another one or more all league type guys on the floor with them so I agree with your thesis. Not a lot of margin for error with this group.

Yes, in a vacuum Bannon is good—if you base it strictly off numbers. I’m talking court presence. Leadership. A “go to” guy when the going got tough. I wouldn’t call Bannon any of those things. Not saying he CAN’T be, but he isn’t right now.

Those other guys played with each other. None of them had to be "the guy" every game, particularly as a sophomore. And he depends on the backcourt to get him the ball. From my perspective a lot of guys haven't progressed toward their potential like most of us expected or at least hoped for. Who's been consistent this year beside Bannan? Beasly and Parker and maybe Whitney. Pretty hard to lay whatever ills that have arisen with the squad at Bannan's feet. None of that group really had the "court presence" as sophs because they didn't have to, they had outstanding teammates with more experience. I got to town after MRR, but how many players have been the go to guy in their 2nd year since then? Not many. Don't think it's fair to Bannan to expect that, IMO.
 
One of the principal frustrations about a team oriented offensive and defensive attack, especially in a sport that is embracing more and more of structure-less offensive and defensive schemes is that it doesn't promote all of those things that we have come to expect with modern basketball.

Travis values several things offensively and for the most part have been pretty successful over his tenure. The first he prefers efficiency over volume. His teams seem to really be averse to the early possession low quality shot, and while it might not always result in great possessions his teams make the opposition defend. The second is that this offense isn't designed for a volume scorer. Travis would rather have a guy go 8-12 for 16 than 8-22. I think last year that was the aversion with the three because I do believe it was about getting the players to manage the offense. The third is that he absolutely does not want to give the defense free possessions. His teams don't turn over the ball and they don't get run outs.

As I noted in the other post on this thread, if you look at the program and the scheme holistically, its really hard to argue with the results. I don't think the offensive issues that some have can be viewed outside of his overall philosophy of running offensive and defensive schemes that compliment each other. Drives me nuts that at times this team struggles getting easy shots, get manhandled physically, and are prone to absurd stretches of futility on offense. I'd love to see more sets, similar to those that were highly effective during Breunig and Rories tenure, but it is apparent he's really trying to build an offensive culture with this group that makes the team a sum of the parts more than a collection of individuals.

I have seen some progression this year where players have baited teams into early bad shot selection that has given Beasley and Whitney runnouts that we didn't see last year. There is offensive growth in this group, but maybe not what some would like. The chronic issue that played out in the ISU game is that if shots aren't falling within the system, and the players aren't getting touches at times there is literally no one who could take over a possession and get a score when it matters. There isn't a volume scorer, as I noted, that has the ability of carrying the team and putting up 30. If this team has an achilles heel, that might be it within construct of what Travis wants or expects out of this group. There isn't an offensive bully and like last year I don't currently the answer is on the team. Could Beasley be that guy? I think so, but clearly the offense is promoting diversity in options and some nights he just doesn't get the chances that Whitney or Parker do from the perimeter. Against superior opponents and athletes you'd like to see the team have a guy in the way that Anthony Johnson was, trusted to take over and impose their will. I just don't think that is what Travis wants. I get the sense the group has bought into it, because they don't show a ton of outward frustration toward each other or even bad body language when they aren't getting touches offensively.
 
Grizfan-24 said:
One of the principal frustrations about a team oriented offensive and defensive attack, especially in a sport that is embracing more and more of structure-less offensive and defensive schemes is that it doesn't promote all of those things that we have come to expect with modern basketball.

Travis values several things offensively and for the most part have been pretty successful over his tenure. The first he prefers efficiency over volume. His teams seem to really be averse to the early possession low quality shot, and while it might not always result in great possessions his teams make the opposition defend. The second is that this offense isn't designed for a volume scorer. Travis would rather have a guy go 8-12 for 16 than 8-22. I think last year that was the aversion with the three because I do believe it was about getting the players to manage the offense. The third is that he absolutely does not want to give the defense free possessions. His teams don't turn over the ball and they don't get run outs.

As I noted in the other post on this thread, if you look at the program and the scheme holistically, its really hard to argue with the results. I don't think the offensive issues that some have can be viewed outside of his overall philosophy of running offensive and defensive schemes that compliment each other. Drives me nuts that at times this team struggles getting easy shots, get manhandled physically, and are prone to absurd stretches of futility on offense. I'd love to see more sets, similar to those that were highly effective during Breunig and Rories tenure, but it is apparent he's really trying to build an offensive culture with this group that makes the team a sum of the parts more than a collection of individuals.

I have seen some progression this year where players have baited teams into early bad shot selection that has given Beasley and Whitney runnouts that we didn't see last year. There is offensive growth in this group, but maybe not what some would like. The chronic issue that played out in the ISU game is that if shots aren't falling within the system, and the players aren't getting touches at times there is literally no one who could take over a possession and get a score when it matters. There isn't a volume scorer, as I noted, that has the ability of carrying the team and putting up 30. If this team has an achilles heel, that might be it within construct of what Travis wants or expects out of this group. There isn't an offensive bully and like last year I don't currently the answer is on the team. Could Beasley be that guy? I think so, but clearly the offense is promoting diversity in options and some nights he just doesn't get the chances that Whitney or Parker do from the perimeter. Against superior opponents and athletes you'd like to see the team have a guy in the way that Anthony Johnson was, trusted to take over and impose their will. I just don't think that is what Travis wants. I get the sense the group has bought into it, because they don't show a ton of outward frustration toward each other or even bad body language when they aren't getting touches offensively.
Top-rate analysis, 24. Another point, which fits seamlessly into what you've observed, is how coach DeCuire builds his team over a full season. He's talked repeatedly about this in pre- and post-game radio interviews: He generally splits his offensive and defensive attacks into three sections, pre-season, the first half of league play, and then finally having his team hit "peak" at the right time (especially not too early). In past years that has meant offensive sets or offensive "tewaks" that the team does not run until the final half of league play. Every Griz coach I've interviewed has emphasized the importance of the full team peaking at the right time: it's more than attitude, energy or teamwork though.
 
Grizfan-24 said:
One of the principal frustrations about a team oriented offensive and defensive attack, especially in a sport that is embracing more and more of structure-less offensive and defensive schemes is that it doesn't promote all of those things that we have come to expect with modern basketball.

Travis values several things offensively and for the most part have been pretty successful over his tenure. The first he prefers efficiency over volume. His teams seem to really be averse to the early possession low quality shot, and while it might not always result in great possessions his teams make the opposition defend. The second is that this offense isn't designed for a volume scorer. Travis would rather have a guy go 8-12 for 16 than 8-22. I think last year that was the aversion with the three because I do believe it was about getting the players to manage the offense. The third is that he absolutely does not want to give the defense free possessions. His teams don't turn over the ball and they don't get run outs.

As I noted in the other post on this thread, if you look at the program and the scheme holistically, its really hard to argue with the results. I don't think the offensive issues that some have can be viewed outside of his overall philosophy of running offensive and defensive schemes that compliment each other. Drives me nuts that at times this team struggles getting easy shots, get manhandled physically, and are prone to absurd stretches of futility on offense. I'd love to see more sets, similar to those that were highly effective during Breunig and Rories tenure, but it is apparent he's really trying to build an offensive culture with this group that makes the team a sum of the parts more than a collection of individuals.

I have seen some progression this year where players have baited teams into early bad shot selection that has given Beasley and Whitney runnouts that we didn't see last year. There is offensive growth in this group, but maybe not what some would like. The chronic issue that played out in the ISU game is that if shots aren't falling within the system, and the players aren't getting touches at times there is literally no one who could take over a possession and get a score when it matters. There isn't a volume scorer, as I noted, that has the ability of carrying the team and putting up 30. If this team has an achilles heel, that might be it within construct of what Travis wants or expects out of this group. There isn't an offensive bully and like last year I don't currently the answer is on the team. Could Beasley be that guy? I think so, but clearly the offense is promoting diversity in options and some nights he just doesn't get the chances that Whitney or Parker do from the perimeter. Against superior opponents and athletes you'd like to see the team have a guy in the way that Anthony Johnson was, trusted to take over and impose their will. I just don't think that is what Travis wants. I get the sense the group has bought into it, because they don't show a ton of outward frustration toward each other or even bad body language when they aren't getting touches offensively.

Good thoughts.


The points you make about the offense are also likely the same reasons you can’t get the types of guys you are talking about. A good offensive player likely is not going to be excited about playing in this type of offense. Players want to run and shoot 3s. That’s not new news. I think this is important especially when talking about players in the portal that are looking to drop down a level. I think that is why Weber has been successful with people like McEwen and Isiah Brown last year, SUU with people like Knight and Jones and UNC with Kountz.

Would be interesting to flesh out your Beasley comment a little more. I feel like he is playing out of position and should be running a lot more off of screens for perimeter shots.
 
citay said:
fanofzoo said:
Sweet Jesus I'm glad to be getting old and spaced out the game, had a good nights sleep.

Well, the rest of us were having nightmares! But one good thing: Owens was back. Not sure where he went but we need him. Especially with Scott Blakney...whatever.

I agree that I am confused about Owen's lack of playing time (especially vs Anderson's PT), but Blakney has a much-better resume than Owens, so I don't understand the criticism of him. Blakney's been hurt and unable to be his capable self, but I think this team needs Blakney to regain his true form more than any player on the roster.
 
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