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griz fans, here's you chance...

I know that I've discussed this before... but since there's some newbies I'll share this experience again:

The worst basketball officiating that I witnessed was a few years ago in Helena. Sentinel High School was winning the game, however Helena High School wound up the winner... HOW? Sentinel team... yes, the entire team fouled out of the game.... One by one the fouls were levied (one way) and by the end of regulation there were three kids fouled out and the game went in to overtime. The whistles were blowing only one way... and finally there were only two Spartans left on the court. Yes, it was an amazing spectacle and what was especially fun was that midway through it all the crowd actually started rooting for the Spartans! The final foul left only one Spartan on the floor and the game was over 'cause he couldn't imbound the ball. Bengals won.

Anyone else see this game? I know the Missoulian wrote about it.. as I recall it was the fall of 1999.
 
i cant say that im surprised to hear that people got homered at hellgate, there were some questionable calls vs. bigsky but the calls shouldnt cost the game im sure there were other missed oppurtunites. i will see you vs. bigsky gato.
 
#2,

I'm not sure if we're going to broadcast either the boys or girls games vs Big Sky in Missoula but if we do, I'll be there.

Braves had another impressive outing last night, albeit against the worst Helena team I've ever seen.

Very troubling incident late in the game, however.

In the second half, Helena player Matt Komac got tangled up with one of the Braves as both fell to the floor. Komac got up clearly looking like he wanted to go after the Braves player, but was restrained by a teammate & a ref. Later in the 4th quarter, Komac and a Brave tied up the ball; as Komac tried to rip the ball away, he fell to the floor, pulling the Braves Jason Russell down on top of him. Almost the instant the 2 hit the floor, Komac wound up and punched Russell in the face. The refs immediately ran in, seperated the players, and called a technical. I was under the impression that a punch in MT high school bball was an automatic ejection and a 1 game suspension but Komac was not thrown out. Coach Schlepp took him out but he remained on the bench for the remainder of the game.

A minute or so later, the Braves were on a fast-break; Brock Osweiler was trailing the play and caught a pass in the paint, wide open for a layup or dunk, when a Helena player shoves him HARD in the back with both hands, nearly knocking him to the floor. The refs appropriately called a flagrant foul but the fact that the Helena kid took a chance on injuring someone in a game Helena was losing by 20+ points late was very troubling to me, especially after what had already happened earlier.

Anyone out there know anything about this Helena team? Komac is obviously a hot-head and I know they are AWFUL and I'm sure they're frustrated, but is this kind of crap a trend for this squad? Or did they just have a very bad night?
 
i know capital beat bigsky by 35, shots werent falling for us, but i think your talking about helena high. i havent heard anything and why is it that you guys would brodcast against hellgate and not bs? that seems weird.
 
El_Gator said:
I have to say I'm totally disappointed that NONE of you showed up.
Click to expand...


I was there.... Remember... I took your picture with my cell phone.


KC-00030-C.jpg
 
El_Gato said:
#2,

I'm not sure if we're going to broadcast either the boys or girls games vs Big Sky in Missoula but if we do, I'll be there.

Braves had another impressive outing last night, albeit against the worst Helena team I've ever seen.

Very troubling incident late in the game, however.

In the second half, Helena player Matt Komac got tangled up with one of the Braves as both fell to the floor. Komac got up clearly looking like he wanted to go after the Braves player, but was restrained by a teammate & a ref. Later in the 4th quarter, Komac and a Brave tied up the ball; as Komac tried to rip the ball away, he fell to the floor, pulling the Braves Jason Russell down on top of him. Almost the instant the 2 hit the floor, Komac wound up and punched Russell in the face. The refs immediately ran in, seperated the players, and called a technical. I was under the impression that a punch in MT high school bball was an automatic ejection and a 1 game suspension but Komac was not thrown out. Coach Schlepp took him out but he remained on the bench for the remainder of the game.

A minute or so later, the Braves were on a fast-break; Brock Osweiler was trailing the play and caught a pass in the paint, wide open for a layup or dunk, when a Helena player shoves him HARD in the back with both hands, nearly knocking him to the floor. The refs appropriately called a flagrant foul but the fact that the Helena kid took a chance on injuring someone in a game Helena was losing by 20+ points late was very troubling to me, especially after what had already happened earlier.

Anyone out there know anything about this Helena team? Komac is obviously a hot-head and I know they are AWFUL and I'm sure they're frustrated, but is this kind of crap a trend for this squad? Or did they just have a very bad night?
Click to expand...

I think it was a one time incident, I've never seen anything of this nature from Helena's squad. I'm sure Coach Schlepp will use it as a teaching moment and both parties can move on.
 
El_Gato said:
#2,

I'm not sure if we're going to broadcast either the boys or girls games vs Big Sky in Missoula but if we do, I'll be there.

Braves had another impressive outing last night, albeit against the worst Helena team I've ever seen.

Very troubling incident late in the game, however.

In the second half, Helena player Matt Komac got tangled up with one of the Braves as both fell to the floor. Komac got up clearly looking like he wanted to go after the Braves player, but was restrained by a teammate & a ref. Later in the 4th quarter, Komac and a Brave tied up the ball; as Komac tried to rip the ball away, he fell to the floor, pulling the Braves Jason Russell down on top of him. Almost the instant the 2 hit the floor, Komac wound up and punched Russell in the face. The refs immediately ran in, seperated the players, and called a technical. I was under the impression that a punch in MT high school bball was an automatic ejection and a 1 game suspension but Komac was not thrown out. Coach Schlepp took him out but he remained on the bench for the remainder of the game.

A minute or so later, the Braves were on a fast-break; Brock Osweiler was trailing the play and caught a pass in the paint, wide open for a layup or dunk, when a Helena player shoves him HARD in the back with both hands, nearly knocking him to the floor. The refs appropriately called a flagrant foul but the fact that the Helena kid took a chance on injuring someone in a game Helena was losing by 20+ points late was very troubling to me, especially after what had already happened earlier.

Anyone out there know anything about this Helena team? Komac is obviously a hot-head and I know they are AWFUL and I'm sure they're frustrated, but is this kind of crap a trend for this squad? Or did they just have a very bad night?
Click to expand...

Gato,

That is nuts! It sounds as though the officials let this one get out of hand. Did they have experienced officials working the game? I have seen similar things develop and the officials get the team captains together and restore order in no uncertain terms. Glad no one got hurt.
 
Got news for all you Ref haters, especially you ElGato. Unless you have ever done it yourself, you have no clue. I coached Varsity Bball for 16 years, and I have reffed for 10 years, including being selected to do tournaments by coaches. That does not make me a perfect Ref. All of us are human and make mistakes. But I do know this. In doing I tournaments I have had the pleasure of working with officials from many pools, not just my own. And through both coaching and officiating I know a ton of Refs in the state. Regardless of what you think, 99% are not "Homers". Officiating is a tough job, and I guarantee you coaches, fans, ANNOUNCERS, etc. are biased in how they look at things. Any time a team loses on the road, or has a lot of fouls called against them, they claim homer job by the refs. Usually they just didn't play well enough to win and fouled a lot. Try officiating some time if you think you can do a better job than those that are doing it. The MOA can use more refs.
 
As if I'm surprised that a ref would say that.

sorry, maroon, but there are unfortunately pools around this state that OBVIOUSLY "homer" teams.

The way the Flathead pool treated Whitefish during Julio Delgado's tenure is my most classic example. For most of Coach Delgado's reign, the head of the Flathead pool was a teacher at Whitefish; no conflict of interest there, eh? Julio also solidified his "relationship" with the Flathead pool by being a member of it; he reffed girls bball games with them during the fall.

Here's a sample of what Julio got:

One season, Whitefish squared off with Flathead twice and outshot the Braves at the free throw line 76-27 in the two games.

One season in the Western A divisionals, Whitefish claimed a single-digit win over Libby in the first round, outshooting the Loggers at the line 31-11.

Another season in the Western A divisional, Whitefish claimed a single-digit win over Libby in the first round, outshooting the Loggers at the line 31-1!

During a challenge game @ the Western A divisional, Whitefish trailed Ronan by 4 entering the 4th quarter; the "treatment" Julio got was so favorable over the years, I got this feeling in my gut and prior to the start of the final quarter, I told a friend that the refs would give Whitefish a win. I specifically tracked the calls and sure enough, of the first 10 whistles in the 4th quarter, 9 of them favored Whitefish, including a couple of the worst mystery calls I've ever seen. Sure enough, after those 10 calls, a 4 point deficit had turned into a 9 point lead for Whitefish.

During that same Western A divisional, there were a total of 13 games played; Whitefish was a participant in 5 of those contests. In the 8 games NOT involving Whitefish, the biggest disparity in team fouls was 8; in other words, the team with the highest # of fouls had 8 more than the other team. In another game, the disparity was 6; in the rest of the non-Whitefish games the foul disparity was 5 or less. During their 5 games, Whitefish's opponents were whistled for 13 more fouls than Julio's team TWICE and in one game, the Bulldogs enjoyed a FIFTEEN foul advantage.

I have no affiliation with any other Western A team, so I have no specific BIAS for or against Whitefish; it was just PAINFULLY obvious over the years that the refs were biased in their favor.

So, maroon, I'm WELL AWARE of what a tough and thankless job reffing is; I HAVE been an official. I KNOW that refs are going to make mistakes and/or bad calls or non-calls during games. What I'm talking about are BIASES & HOMER-JOBS, and even though I know you won't accept or admit that fact, anyone who has taken in a lot of games around the state KNOWS that it happens and that certain cities are really blatant about it. Back to my original postings on the ref issues, I actually like the Missoula pool better than our own despite the first 2 games down there this season. I'm hopeful that those 2 were simply an aberration.

maroon, I know as a ref, you have to stick with the "company line" and state what you did; but as someone who's attended/watched/called hundreds of games over the last 10+ years, you will not convince me that "homer jobs" don't occur.

PS I'm not a "ref-hater"; I know a # of them and am even friends with several. I know there a far more good, quality refs out there than bad ones. I am not "bashing" the entire group; unfortunately, however, as in any profession, there are some who shouldn't be doing what they're doing. I'm sure most of you griz fans would say I shouldn't be broadcasting games. :laugh:
 
good post gato, i didnt know it was so bad up there. missoula isnt too bad except this short bald guy is killin me.
 
I really didn't intend to go this overboard on the reffing issue.

Let me restate:

I know that MOST refs do the best job they can in calling a fair & impartial game.

But I also know that there ARE sites in this state where teams get favorable treatment from SPECIFIC referees & that is simply wrong.

I'm not going to pull any punches: Great Falls & Helena are 2 places where you simply know going into a game that the home team is going to get favorable treatment. No matter how many refs or pro-ref folks come on here and try to dispute that, I've seen enough debacles in those 2 cities to know it's true. Most folks who've followed high school football & basketball also know it's true.

I've never had a beef with the guys in Missoula (again, except for the 2 games this year) or even Butte, believe it or not.

I've only done a handful of games in Bozeman & Billings but I don't recall the refs performances standing out in those games one way or the other.

I'm not going to back down & be silent when I see a screw-job; the worst offenders should be identified & either "educated" to do a better job or weeded out of the system.

Unless somebody flames me, I'm pretty much done with this topic.
 
[I have to say they are now just as mediocre as any other group in the state.

I shudder to think what it'll look like in notorious "homer-domes" like the Helena & Great Falls schools; those refs are already horrible and I'm afraid Brock will spend more time on the bench than on the floor at those sites.

Any refs or friends/family of refs reading this post: PUT YOUR IDIOTIC BIASES ASIDE AND JUST CALL THE DAMN GAME AS IT'S PLAYED OUT. The kids from EVERY school deserve that for their efforts.[/quote]

I can't speak for AA towns and official's pools, but out East we could give a $hit who's winning or losing a game. As officials, all we have is our integrity. If that goes and the bias starts to show, it's time to GET OUT!!! Sorry you had a bad experience, but I take offense to the "IDIOTIC BIAS" statement directed at all officials. We really don't do this for the money. Most of us do this to stay young and close to the game we love.
 
hey gato, this may be a little off topic i guess, but i was wondering how this osweiler kid is compared to the smith brothers a couple years back. they came onto the scene strong and then kind of plateaud a bit in my opinion.
 
Simply because of his size, I feel the up-side is much higher for Brock. He's already a legit 6'8" as a freshman; if he grows another couple of inches, he's really going to be difficult to defend. He is an excellent athlete who just happens to be very tall. I've compared him to Dirk Nowitski because I think eventually he'll have those type skills: a good ball handler, good perimeter skills, but also able to back guys down & score in the paint. We haven't seen his jump-shooting ability yet because the Braves offense is pretty much he & Hogan working inside; I'm sure by the time he's a senior, he'll have a very well-rounded offensive game. He's already shown that he plays good defense as well; guards and wings attacking the middle KNOW he's in there, waiting for them.

I'd say right now that Brock is already one of the ten best all-around players I've seen in 10+ years of closely following AA basketball and I'm confident from what I know of him & his family, his goal is to continue to get better.

Justin & Colter were both good at the offensive end, but neither became great all-around players, IMO.
 
El_Gato said:
#2,

I'm not sure if we're going to broadcast either the boys or girls games vs Big Sky in Missoula but if we do, I'll be there.

Braves had another impressive outing last night, albeit against the worst Helena team I've ever seen.

Very troubling incident late in the game, however.

In the second half, Helena player Matt Komac got tangled up with one of the Braves as both fell to the floor. Komac got up clearly looking like he wanted to go after the Braves player, but was restrained by a teammate & a ref. Later in the 4th quarter, Komac and a Brave tied up the ball; as Komac tried to rip the ball away, he fell to the floor, pulling the Braves Jason Russell down on top of him. Almost the instant the 2 hit the floor, Komac wound up and punched Russell in the face. The refs immediately ran in, seperated the players, and called a technical. I was under the impression that a punch in MT high school bball was an automatic ejection and a 1 game suspension but Komac was not thrown out. Coach Schlepp took him out but he remained on the bench for the remainder of the game.

A minute or so later, the Braves were on a fast-break; Brock Osweiler was trailing the play and caught a pass in the paint, wide open for a layup or dunk, when a Helena player shoves him HARD in the back with both hands, nearly knocking him to the floor. The refs appropriately called a flagrant foul but the fact that the Helena kid took a chance on injuring someone in a game Helena was losing by 20+ points late was very troubling to me, especially after what had already happened earlier.

Anyone out there know anything about this Helena team? Komac is obviously a hot-head and I know they are AWFUL and I'm sure they're frustrated, but is this kind of crap a trend for this squad? Or did they just have a very bad night?
Click to expand...

it's a little tougher to say now that keller is not there. i'm sorry, but that dude was as unclassy(and being a cat we apparently know unclassy) as it gets. he owned the refs. playing in helena you knew you now only had to beat the team, and some were good, but you always had to beat the refs. and this isn't sour grapes because i'm pretty sure i was on the winning end all but once or twice. but i actually saw coach keller and his son josh get in a fight together against two other guys in a bar! his players loved him because he was more of a friend to drink and fight with than a coach. although he knows the game of basketball. as for this years team, there coach seems to be decent, but like i said after they lost to bozeman early in the season, they are the worst in the state. maybe they are just frustrated, not that that is an excuse.
 
Gato you are a punk

Waaaaaaah waaaaah waaaaah the only thing worse than a Kalispel whiner is a Bobcat whiner looks like we have a hybrid here.

This kid is a good player and an idiot like you will just make things difficult for him with other players and other programs and officials.
Give him a break and let him play. He seems to be a good kid and doesn't whine at the officials.
I am from the Flathead valley and understand that this venue may be your only one. Keep spouting off.
 
ponezone said:
I know that I've discussed this before... but since there's some newbies I'll share this experience again:

The worst basketball officiating that I witnessed was a few years ago in Helena. Sentinel High School was winning the game, however Helena High School wound up the winner... HOW? Sentinel team... yes, the entire team fouled out of the game.... One by one the fouls were levied (one way) and by the end of regulation there were three kids fouled out and the game went in to overtime. The whistles were blowing only one way... and finally there were only two Spartans left on the court. Yes, it was an amazing spectacle and what was especially fun was that midway through it all the crowd actually started rooting for the Spartans! The final foul left only one Spartan on the floor and the game was over 'cause he couldn't imbound the ball. Bengals won.

Anyone else see this game? I know the Missoulian wrote about it.. as I recall it was the fall of 1999.
Click to expand...
Here is a link to the story in the Missoulian:
http://www.missoulian.com/articles/1999/01/26/export50215.txt
 
LuvMaroon said:
Got news for all you Ref haters, especially you ElGato. Unless you have ever done it yourself, you have no clue. I coached Varsity Bball for 16 years, and I have reffed for 10 years, including being selected to do tournaments by coaches. That does not make me a perfect Ref. All of us are human and make mistakes. But I do know this. In doing I tournaments I have had the pleasure of working with officials from many pools, not just my own. And through both coaching and officiating I know a ton of Refs in the state. Regardless of what you think, 99% are not "Homers". Officiating is a tough job, and I guarantee you coaches, fans, ANNOUNCERS, etc. are biased in how they look at things. Any time a team loses on the road, or has a lot of fouls called against them, they claim homer job by the refs. Usually they just didn't play well enough to win and fouled a lot. Try officiating some time if you think you can do a better job than those that are doing it. The MOA can use more refs.
Click to expand...

:thumb: Great Post

I umpire Legion Baseball. Had a coach ask me one time, "we do I get a home town call?" I said, "never knew there was such a thing." The look on his face was priceless.

Everytime I hear somebody got "homered" by the refs I look at the box score. Usually they miss 1/2 their free throws, have double the turnovers as their opponent, etc.

Can't, in my 25 years of playing or officiating sports, have I seen an official have something to do w/ the outcome.
 
GRZFTBL said:
Can't, in my 25 years of playing or officiating sports, have I seen an official have something to do w/ the outcome.
Click to expand...

I think Montana Gym Rat would disagree with you.

Oh yeah, forgot one point. Criswell made the bucket on the blown charge call and would have gone to the line for the 3-point play. This would have taken the game to 64-57 and ended the drought that Montana was going through. Instead, Sir comes down and nails a 3, and all of a sudden you got a 6 point turnaround to make the score 61-60.

I hate to say it, but in my opinion that official caused the turning point of the game. Officials should never affect the outcome of the game in that way.
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