GRIZ/Bengals threads

[Grizbeer]

? for anyone that seen the game, Did the GRIZ pressure the Guards at all? If not, that was a huge mistake. I have seen 2 games of ISU on TV and they did not handle pressure well at all, half court or full court. I feel we should have done that with CET, Rundles, and even Graves for a few minutes each half.

Do we ever pressure the ball? I think we should against weaker ballhandling teams. Tonight we were much better defensively with Qvale in there, keep his minutes up there.

There was a short period of time late in the first 1/2 when the Griz pressured.

The problem was, they used Qvale to pressure the inbounds, and god bless him he really showed energy and enthusiasm, but I sure like it better when he was in the key disrupting shots then running down the court trying to catch up to the play.

Qvale was a great spark to the team tonight, he was fun to watch. The energy Hasquet had, and the first few minutes of the 2nd 1/2 when the fed the ball underneath to Strait was fun to see - the rest of the game was perhaps the most frustrated, and depressing I ever remember at a griz bb game.

Regarding the missed free throws, that is not why the Griz lost the game - yes a few points would have mattered, but then ISU missed a lot more free throws.

in the end what lost this game was poor strategy down the stretch. With a 3 point lead and just under 4 minutes remaining, with a bit of momentum on their side, the Griz start to run out the clock - and hand control and momentum over to ISU. With 32 seconds left, and a 3 second differential on the shot clock, everyone in the place knew that ISU would feed it down low to get the last shot. They owned the Griz down low when Qvale wasn't in the game, and owned the rebounding edge. Of course you have a couple of choices, you could put your big guys in, make them earn the last shot from the outside and have the best chance a t a rebound, you could foul (since ISU was shooting about 50% from the line), and decide you want to have a chance to win instead of hoping not to lose, or you could go with the 3 guard lineup that had had their ass handed to them all game in the paint. Tinkle choose the last option.

I like Tinkle I hope he gets it turned around, because I don't see O'Day firing a coach, especially one with a 3 year contract, so he will be around for a few years, and I would hate to see Montana miss the BSC tournament a couple years in a row, and destroy not only the momentum from the 04-06 years, but possibly the entire program. maybe it is time for Tinkle to call up some of his mentors and ask them for advice on how to turn things around.

For those wondering if they should go to the game on Sunday (or any other game) here is my advice - listen to Tinkle before the game - if Tinkle says they had a great practice, and the team understands what needs to be done, and he is in a positive mood about the game, skip it, they will lay an egg and you will be sorely disappointed. If Tinkle sounds worried then by all means go, because they are going to light it up - I have observed this for 2 years now, and it never seems to fail. IMO that is because the teams takes on the personality of the coach, and when coach is happy with practice, they figure their job is done and there is no intensity, or desire to improve. When coach is upset and worried they try harder. Tinkle needs to expect more from this team (at least more than no room for error), never be satisfied or happy with their performance, and the team will respond.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I went to the women's game, and you all got FLAT OUTPLAYED tonight, END OF STORY! Quit making excuses, cuz if we would have rebounded better down the stretch, we would have won by 25! Morales didn't play well, and our two all-stars did. We hit A TON of 3's. On the guys side, what can I say, we play good D, and our brutal non-conference is paying off. We're not that talented on O, but we find a way to win the close ones... Good night for us, bad night for the Griz, and I LOVE IT!

Care to wager some serious cash on which women's team is in the NCAA Tourney this year?

 

[votb]

That's true. I guess I didn't think of that. I see what you mean.

I will have The Bud talk to you about the accountability you tried to lecture me on. :wink:

I take complete responsibility for my oversight. I didn't realize what you meant by your comment, but now I do. I apologize for my inquiry.

Apology accepted. LG game is pretty easy to breakdown glancing at the stat sheet. ISU made 14 more FT's than the LG even attempted. Fouls were extremely lopsided, and it was the starters who were being whistled. Mandy only played 26 minutes, Rogers 22 minutes, Lohman 12 minutes, Closson 29 minutes, and Tam played 29 minutes, whereas the ISU starters played 40, 36, 31, 29, and 26 minutes. Anyone who has every been to pokey knows what I am talking about. I still remember the crewing Carla Taylor's WSU team took in the title game of the BSC tourney against ISU a few years back.

GB1...U know I don't disagree with you hardly ever, but I have a couple of observations about tonight's loss to the ISU women...

--Remember that Carla Taylor's Weber team BEAT ISU in Pocatello in that same tournament ater ISU had won the right to host the tourney. Don't give me the "home cookin" line. I've seen plenty of that every time ISU comes to Missoula. It seems a little disingenuous to think that refs call all the games right-on in Missoula...but ISU gets "home cookin" in Pocatello.

--ISU DID benefit greatly from some early calls against the LG because the Bengals are a great FT shooting team. As much a problem for the LG was the way they reacted to the calls. The truth is that they just came off a ten game home stand...and all of a sudden they're on the road in a hostile environment. I'm NOT going to say that every call against UM tonight was a good call...but neither were all the calls against ISU. Trust me when I tell you that Guardipee grabbed plenty of rebounds tonight going over Doma's back and never got called for fouls on any of those plays. I honestly think that in some cases, playing so many home games in a row can be detrimental.

--Another observation: I think the LG were in trouble even during warmups. I always watch the teams closely during warmups...and tonight a number of LG players were watching ISU warming up, pointing at players and laughing at them. I think they honestly must have felt after ISU's 40-point loss last week to Portland State that the Bengals were really "pretenders', and not contenders and they had it in the bag. Hey, Rob's teams were 11-1 against Newlee's teams since Newlee took over at ISU...history seemed to be on their side. I saw the same thing happen when ISU played UCLA in the Reno tournament, and beat the Bruins by 12. Before the game UCLA players acted like they were gonna win just cuz they were a PAC-10 school. They got their heads handed to them. You gotta remember that the same year Newlee's team lost to the LG in Missoula by 50, ISU won the Big Sky regular season title that year.

--Next observation. The ISU women have THE BEST free throw shooting team in the entire nation...at any level of college play...men or women. You'd better not have to hope you can catch them by making them shoot free throws. Of ISU's 34 of 36 makes at the line tonight, the two misses came from the same player, and she was 5-7 in the game. Of the SEVEN other players that shot at the line...every one was perfect...and Doma sets a new school record with 16-16. Remember, she's not second in the country in scoring because referees pander to her.

--Last observation: The LG stepped up their offensive AND defensive intensity in the 2nd half with a smothering zone-d that didn't let ISU get the ball inside. ISU answers with 7-14 second half from 3pt range. Zone Breakers. Bengals made 22 baskets in the game...19 assists. Very good teamwork offensively.

Spare me the "We got ripped off by the refs" argument. Face it...the LG just got slapped around by an ISU team that was better than them tonight. You may well be right that the LG will win when it counts...history also would tend to point to that. But that's why we play the games instead of just give the trophies to the teams that "usually" win. Everybody has to earn it.

Last thought: I think the LG probably played their worst game of the year tonight. ISU played one of its best of the year. The same thing happened at Portland State last week when we lost by 40. It will likely be different when PSU comes to Pocatello, and when ISU goes to Missoula. Let's play the games and see what happens.

You guys are great! I love your board and your loyalty...and again acknowledge that UM is the school that all other BSC teams try to model when they're striving for excellence.

See you in Missoula...

VOTB

 

[grizatwork]

I've been ushering the mens games for 3-4 years now & this is the worst that I have seen them play. I suspect that they will finish in the bottom 1/3 of the league this year.

So much for BH being under pressure...If the Griz finish that low, you'll hear the crickets chirping in the Adams Center again-

I believe our guard play is as bad as it has been in many, many years...Holy cow, I think I just heard the ghost of Don Holst laughing in the background-

I think you hit the nail on the head. If college basketball has proven anything over the past 15 years, it is that you need excellent guard play to win. The griz do not have that this year. We need a true point guard.

 

[Zirg]

I agree...at this point...

find someone who can play those positions... because we aren't very good... At this point play Spurigetis or Graves... cause they couldn't be much worse...

I think Spurgetis is done for the year with a broken hand.

 

[Grizbacker1]

I will have The Bud talk to you about the accountability you tried to lecture me on. :wink:

I take complete responsibility for my oversight. I didn't realize what you meant by your comment, but now I do. I apologize for my inquiry.

Apology accepted. LG game is pretty easy to breakdown glancing at the stat sheet. ISU made 14 more FT's than the LG even attempted. Fouls were extremely lopsided, and it was the starters who were being whistled. Mandy only played 26 minutes, Rogers 22 minutes, Lohman 12 minutes, Closson 29 minutes, and Tam played 29 minutes, whereas the ISU starters played 40, 36, 31, 29, and 26 minutes. Anyone who has every been to pokey knows what I am talking about. I still remember the crewing Carla Taylor's WSU team took in the title game of the BSC tourney against ISU a few years back.

GB1...U know I don't disagree with you hardly ever, but I have a couple of observations about tonight's loss to the ISU women...

--Remember that Carla Taylor's Weber team BEAT ISU in Pocatello in that same tournament ater ISU had won the right to host the tourney. Don't give me the "home cookin" line. I've seen plenty of that every time ISU comes to Missoula. It seems a little disingenuous to think that refs call all the games right-on in Missoula...but ISU gets "home cookin" in Pocatello.

--ISU DID benefit greatly from some early calls against the LG because the Bengals are a great FT shooting team. As much a problem for the LG was the way they reacted to the calls. The truth is that they just came off a ten game home stand...and all of a sudden they're on the road in a hostile environment. I'm NOT going to say that every call against UM tonight was a good call...but neither were all the calls against ISU. Trust me when I tell you that Guardipee grabbed plenty of rebounds tonight going over Doma's back and never got called for fouls on any of those plays. I honestly think that in some cases, playing so many home games in a row can be detrimental.

--Another observation: I think the LG were in trouble even during warmups. I always watch the teams closely during warmups...and tonight a number of LG players were watching ISU warming up, pointing at players and laughing at them. I think they honestly must have felt after ISU's 40-point loss last week to Portland State that the Bengals were really "pretenders', and not contenders and they had it in the bag. Hey, Rob's teams were 11-1 against Newlee's teams since Newlee took over at ISU...history seemed to be on their side. I saw the same thing happen when ISU played UCLA in the Reno tournament, and beat the Bruins by 12. Before the game UCLA players acted like they were gonna win just cuz they were a PAC-10 school. They got their heads handed to them. You gotta remember that the same year Newlee's team lost to the LG in Missoula by 50, ISU won the Big Sky regular season title that year.

--Next observation. The ISU women have THE BEST free throw shooting team in the entire nation...at any level of college play...men or women. You'd better not have to hope you can catch them by making them shoot free throws. Of ISU's 34 of 36 makes at the line tonight, the two misses came from the same player, and she was 5-7 in the game. Of the SEVEN other players that shot at the line...every one was perfect...and Doma sets a new school record with 16-16. Remember, she's not second in the country in scoring because referees pander to her.

--Last observation: The LG stepped up their offensive AND defensive intensity in the 2nd half with a smothering zone-d that didn't let ISU get the ball inside. ISU answers with 7-14 second half from 3pt range. Zone Breakers. Bengals made 22 baskets in the game...19 assists. Very good teamwork offensively.

Spare me the "We got ripped off by the refs" argument. Face it...the LG just got slapped around by an ISU team that was better than them tonight. You may well be right that the LG will win when it counts...history also would tend to point to that. But that's why we play the games instead of just give the trophies to the teams that "usually" win. Everybody has to earn it.

Last thought: I think the LG probably played their worst game of the year tonight. ISU played one of its best of the year. The same thing happened at Portland State last week when we lost by 40. It will likely be different when PSU comes to Pocatello, and when ISU goes to Missoula. Let's play the games and see what happens.

You guys are great! I love your board and your loyalty...and again acknowledge that UM is the school that all other BSC teams try to model when they're striving for excellence.

See you in Missoula...

VOTB

We can disagree about the LG game, and you are probably right about a lot of what you say. A lot of what I said was tongue in cheek too, but trust me, if the FT numbers were reversed, we would be hearing the same from bengal fan.

Now, I was at the ISU/WSU game, and the play that cost Weber the win happened right in front of me. Weber got screwed, plain and simple. Now, did ISU unduly influence the officials to make bad calls, I don't have any evidence of that, not am I saying that, but the shitty calls were made irrespective of that, therefore I stand by my claim they got screwed. There are not many people in coaching more classy than Carla Taylor. It has been about a decade since that game, but if you really want to see Carla animated, go up and ask her about the call at the end of the game. I think she will can make a case and has film to back it up. :twocents: :thumb:

 

[votb]

I agree with you GB1, it's almost impossible to see those kinds of free throw numbers and not complain.

VOTB

 

[Grizbeer]

GB, you have a point, and I too have been saying the last 2 years we have nobody that wants to penetrate. Our best guys at it do not see the floor. Last year, Swift did when he got a chance, yet very seldom played. This year, Graves came to the GRIZ with this reputation. I seen him scrimmage/practice a few times and he looked to take the ball to the hole more than any GRIZ. Yet, he does not see the floor either.

Does Tinkle not like penetrating players or does he think it clogs up the paint too much for Strait to work? As it is Strait does not see the ball in position enough.

I really think the GRIZ should continually work on penetrating the majority of practices until they can do it consistently. We know we are good offensively in the paint. We know most of the time our 3's will be consistent when taken wisely. We know our defense is improved on last year. Would it hurt to work on ballhandling and penetrating more in practice?

After watching last nights game, I think the bolded statement above is the problem. I don't think the problem with the offense is the guards, but rather the plays.

Watching the way the offense is set up, the plays are designed to lob the ball inside to a man posting up, or shoot the 3 coming off a screen. The problem is this is pretty easy to take away.

All of the movement through the key is designed to set a screen, so someone can catch and shoot from the 3 point line. There really doesn't seem to be a back door, pick and roll, or alley oop play in the book.

CET did start to drive penetrate early in the 2nd 1/2 and was quite successful. I think all the guards can do it, but it is not the designed play. Quite frankly if you have seen Graves dribble penetrate in practice I think it explains why he is not seeing the floor - it is not Tinkles game plan. Tinkles game plan appears to be to pass it around a lot on the perimeter, hope for the lob inside or open 3, and when that fails a desperation 3.

 

[Kadeezy]

I know everyone hates the saying "if the season ended today", but if it did, Montana State, Montana, and Sac State would be the odd teams out.

It may not mean much, but it holds some meaning (even SAC has been in the BSC tourney 4 out of 5 years)...

 

[BARN BALL]

I know everyone hates the saying "if the season ended today", but if it did, Montana State, Montana, and Sac State would be the odd teams out.

It may not mean much, but it holds some meaning (even SAC has been in the BSC tourney 4 out of 5 years)...

:werd: But.... the season will not be over at least until the large round lady sings between 2 and 4 pm mountain time Sun. :werd:

:dance: I feel your pain but a not sure I will be a part of it. :dance:

:crybaby: I think I need to see a bit more of this season. :crybaby:

:beer2: Didn't I just read somewhere where everyone hates the saying"if the season ended today :beer2:

:naughty: We have enough snow to be depressed and do not expect to be shut out in the end. :naughty:

 

[sdgriz1]

Tinkle might be a great guy but he is not a good coach. It constantly takes the team nearly 25 seconds to penetrate just the 3 point line with the basketball. There is no movement in the half court offense. They look like a slow NAIA team out there. Hasquet should get more touches and opportunities to score. Straight should also get more. And again there is a point guard who can't hit water from a boat...hasquet martin and straight are the only one's who show heart, get on the floor and actually get into the game. It's not even good basketball to watch. Run the floor a little bit, they usually get about 2 fast break points a game. Start paying attention to there lackluster half court offense, nobody moves and i counted on many occasions when they hadn't penetrated the 3 point line with the ball until very late in the shot clock. UGLY, bring back Larry

 

[mtgrizrule]

On the brightside, Martin is ending his career with a very good SR year. :thumb: I agree JH, MM, and AS work hard all the time, I would also have to say Staudacher does too. This offense lacks alot. I am fine with trying to be disciplined but not handicapping the group as a whole. I am not fine with no penetration for open looks. Maybe we should try amping it up more offensively. It would not hurt any. It also would not hurt to see what the likes of Qvale, Vanderjagt, and Graves can do with meaningful minutes here and there.

Why do we not press ballhandlers more often. Ellis was great at that and getting a few easy lay ins a game from it. Last year, they did not let Ellis gamble as often either. Are we outright just to conservative and vanilla?

 

[Bengal00]

VOTB said it best. I also observed the LG before the game and they acted like they were not focused and they kept pointing and laughing and jawing the whole game. I think they thought they were going to come in there and intimidate and push around the LB's. It didn't happen and the LB's were focused and they won. There was a lot of trash talk and pushing going on. It was great game to watch. We lit up the 3's. It was a good night to sweep the Grizz! GO BENGALS!

 

[Grizbacker1]

VOTB said it best. I also observed the LG before the game and they acted like they were not focused and they kept pointing and laughing and jawing the whole game. I think they thought they were going to come in there and intimidate and push around the LB's. It didn't happen and the LB's were focused and they won. There was a lot of trash talk and pushing going on. It was great game to watch. We lit up the 3's. It was a good night to sweep the Grizz! GO BENGALS!

Enjoy it while it lasts. I was going to tell you to act like you have been there before, but when the hell was ISU ever there? :thumb:

 

[mtgrizrule]

I think the Missoulian article sums this game and season up well. Strait and Hasquet seem to know what is killing this team. Question is what will/can be done to fix it?

Andrew Strait had no trouble identifying what killed the Montana Grizzlies in their 56-54 loss to Idaho State on Thursday night at Dahlberg Arena.

Offensive rebounds.

“That was the death of us,” Montana's senior center said.


None was bigger than the dagger wielded by 6-foot-2 sophomore Donnie Carson. With his team trailing 54-53, Carson rebounded his own miss and scored from point-blank range with 3.2 seconds to play to lift the Bengals to the win in the Grizzlies' Big Sky Conference home opener.

The final sequence capped a miserable offensive showing for the Griz (1-3 in league, 7-10 overall). Montana was 17-for-43 (39.5 percent) from the field overall, 5-for-22 (22.7 percent) from 3-point range. The Griz were outrebounded 32-23 by a team that entered the game next to last in the league in that category and were outscored 26-16 in the paint, where the Griz figured to have an advantage over the guard-oriented Bengals (3-1, 6-11).

That the Griz even had a shot to win seemed implausible during a first half in which they managed just nine points in the first 16 minutes and trailed by as many as 14.

“I don't know if there's much I can say to justify the way we came out,” said Strait, who finished with 15 points and six rebounds.

The Griz scored 12 straight points to get within 25-21 late in the first half and trailed 28-21 at the break.

“Our shots weren't falling, we were just in our own little world,” said Griz junior Jordan Hasquet, who led the Griz with 16 points and six boards. “We weren't doing anything on offense. When you have no movement like that and nothing going on, you can't score.”

The Bengals still led by seven, 44-37, on a transition layup by Amorrow Morgan with 11:06 to play before the Griz crept back into the game.

A bank shot by Hasquet, a layup by Matt Martin, a left-handed scoop shot by Strait, a free throw by Cam Rundles and a crowd-pleasing 3-pointer by Martin finally gave the Griz their first lead since 2-0 at 47-45 with 6:32 to play.

Despite some shaky free-throw shooting, the Griz kept the lead until Matt Stucki knotted the game at 53-53 with a free throw with 1:12 remaining. Montana went back on top, 54-53, on a free throw by Hasquet with 38.2 seconds left, setting up ISU's final possession.

The Bengals ran 3-point marksman Austin Kilpatrick off of several screens, but Ryan Staudacher battled through each one to stay in his face. With the Bengals looking flustered, they finally swung the ball to the right side, where Carson went one-on-one with Martin. Martin defended the initial shot well, but Carson grabbed the rebound and powered it back up for the game-winner, drawing a foul from Hasquet in the process. Logan Kinghorn made the free throw for Carson, who had been poked in the eye on the winning play.

“I just did what I do,” Carson said. “I'm the best at driving, so I just planned on driving and if I didn't have anything, I would kick it out. I got all the way to the basket and it came off the rim. I'm a quick jumper so I jumped up quickly, got the rebound and got poked in the eye.”

Hasquet had his hand on top of the ball for a moment, before Carson was able to muscle it up.

“(Martin) played great defense, then he just kind of got stuck under the basket,” Hasquet said. “He had a bad angle and (Carson) was able to grab it and put it up. I was hoping they'd go for a jump ball there; I tried to tie it up.”

Tinkle said he decided to stick with Martin in the deciding sequence rather than bring Ceylon Elgin-Taylor - considered one of the team's best defenders - off the bench.

“Ceylon had been sitting over there for a while,” Tinkle said. “Matt did a good job forcing a tough shot, but that's where somebody has to come climb the glass.”

The Griz got off a final shot, but Hasquet's 40-footer hit the back iron and caromed out.

The loss squandered the road breakthrough the Griz recorded last Saturday at Sacramento State, but it's too early to panic, Tinkle said.

“I don't think so, not with 12 games left,” he said. “There's been plenty of teams in this league that started 1-3, 1-4 that have won the conference championship.”

NOTES: Center Lucas Steijn led ISU with 12 points, only two after intermission. Carson backed him up with 10. ... ISU finished with 22 second-chance points - 13 in the second half - to 14 for the Griz. ... Hasquet (16), Strait (15) and Martin (11) combined for 42 of Montana's 54 points.

 

[Swillbury]

This sucks

 

[Bengal00]

GB, is the dynasty finally crumbling? You sound nervous to me? The talent and coaching ability is getting even better in every sport every year. You guys did have a good run but that was then and this is now. GO BENGALS!

 

[mtgrizrule]

And all of the sudden, GOOD ISU starts will parlay to not choking down the stretch!!!!! I guess you can refute this time and time again, eventually you will be right, which has yet to happen in football or basketball. Even if the GRIZ continue to struggle my money certainly would not be on ISU this year.

 

[Grizbacker1]

GB, is the dynasty finally crumbling? You sound nervous to me? The talent and coaching ability is getting even better in every sport every year. You guys did have a good run but that was then and this is now. GO BENGALS!

Oh hell no, be real dude, yo uknow ISU will start fighting with the FB players, move into a Motel, cut classes, end of the season collapse, like they always do. You guys coul ddo a commercial for premature you know what.

The Griz have a boatload of talen redshirting and incoming recruits, so am I nervous, not a chance. Like I said, enjoy your early season win. :thumb:

 

[GrizWhiz]

Tinkle might be a great guy but he is not a good coach. It constantly takes the team nearly 25 seconds to penetrate just the 3 point line with the basketball. There is no movement in the half court offense. They look like a slow NAIA team out there. Hasquet should get more touches and opportunities to score. Straight should also get more. And again there is a point guard who can't hit water from a boat...hasquet martin and straight are the only one's who show heart, get on the floor and actually get into the game. It's not even good basketball to watch. Run the floor a little bit, they usually get about 2 fast break points a game. Start paying attention to there lackluster half court offense, nobody moves and i counted on many occasions when they hadn't penetrated the 3 point line with the ball until very late in the shot clock. UGLY, bring back Larry

I disagree with the "lack of heart" part. Notice the 3 guys you mentioned are all Kennedy recruits? (No, I don't want Kennedy back but he sure could recruit). I wish Taylor (who plays hard and has heart) had been put in for Martin during the last defensive series. He is quicker, bigger and a better defender. Also, why not insert Qvale in that situation? Maybe the put back that gave them their winning points could have been avoided. I think our problems go way beyond having heart. :twocents: