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Griz BB Gets No Respect

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the big sky is what it is, an insignificant stepping-stone of a conference that features lousy refs, tiny gyms, bad r.p.i.'s, no television contract and only one invite to the big dance, but which has held together as a conference for many years on the patronage of its strongest member, the university of montana. by any standard--facilities, fan base, mascot, donations, attendance, consistent excellence of its football and women's basketball program--we long ago outgrew the big sky, and can now only watch as others s-l-o-w-l-y (in the case of montana state) or s-l-i-g-h-t-l-y f-a-s-t-e-r (in the case of eastern washington) try to catch up.

So I guess your goal is to become the Eastern Washington of the WAC then. :thumb:

You can't win the Football argument, so focus on hoops for second. It seems like you guys might have the will and the resources to become another Gonzaga. But you don't have to leave the BSC to do it. GU doesn't suffer from a low conference RPI, small Gyms, or lack of a TV contract. The fact is, regardless of what conference you play in, you have to do it on the court. You have to earn respect by consistently getting to the dance, Sweet 16 appearances, playing brutal non-conference schedules, and surviving them.
 
All very good points Kalm. I don't think a conference holds back a team, its just extremely hard to recruit and get consistent talent. It takes a good 3 or 4 years in a row before a program really starts to make some big, noticeable progress. :twocents:
 
the evidence is that the zags performed much better at the big dance as the unheraled cindarella gon-zah-ga from spoke-aine washington than they have as a bona fide top-20 national power whose name is now mis-prounounced less often than ora-gone. after three consecutive years of two and out, with a loss to nevada among their embarassments (yes, THAT nevada!) you have to ask yourself: does playing the likes of marymount, portland and santa clara prepare you to make a serious run in the big tournament? do african-americans like george bush?
 
: does playing the likes of marymount, portland and santa clara prepare you to make a serious run in the big tournament? do african-americans like george bush?[/quote]

No, but neither does playing Idaho and Hawaii. So now, what Gonzaga has - a top 20 year in and year out - is not good enough either. Then you better skip the WAC and go right to the Pac-10.

How many years did Bob Knight go without winning a tournament game again? While I agree that the level of competition is a factor, it's not the end all, be all. Using your logic, no mid-majors would get out of the 1st round. If GU never makes a final four they will still be considered an enormous success.

I think this argument is about realistic expectations. Some Eastern fans think we should settle for nothing less than overtaking the Montana football program. While we can be competitive and a real serious thorn in your side, we are simply out-gunned when it comes to support and economics. That type of reasoning leads to stupid notions like Paul Wulff should be fired for not allowing Meyer and Kimble to leads us to the promised land in '05. I'm very pleased (not complacent) that the school with smallest athletics budget in the BSC can have the success it does. That's realistic.

So before you talk about moving up to a larger conference so you can make a run in the tournament, you should try dominating the BSC first, and enjoy yourself while you're doing it.

And I'm not getting the african american question. I suppose Condi and Armstrong Williams like Bush, so at least some African Americans think he's ok. And I'm sure those two are representative of Black interests. :thumb:
 
taking your last paragraph first, i would remind you that the first fallacy of debate is arguing from specifics. let's go instead by post-katrina polls showing two per cent support among african-americans for george bush--with a three per cent margin of error! which means condi and williams may be the only blacks left in america who support bush--the oreo cookie on the supreme court excepted.

as to the other, you argue for a tough pre-season schedule, and so do i, but when i argue for a tough conference schedule as well, you go all wobbly on me. i take it as an article of faith that you get to be the best by playing the best; that utah state, fresno state, hawaii and nevada (and their arenas) represent a real upgrade from the big sky. if eastern had our fifteen year record of excellence in football, or our 25 year record of dominance in women's basketball, you'd be a fool for not eyeing the wac too, which is to say, you'd be sitting over next to grizbacker 1.
 
City,

You are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. You have the same lame ass arguement for your pie in th esky wet dream about the WAC being some big time league. Guess again. They are ranked near the bottom of D1 conferences. Can you name how many are not running a deficit in their athletic department? I doubt you have ever done the homework.

You still have never addressed how Montana is going to pay for such a move up. You keep talking about TV contracts like all of a sudden a flood gate of $$$ will appear. Guess what, it won't happen. Montana would be in the worst media market of the lot. Name 2 Major Corporate sponsors in the UM Market area that we don't already have on board in Missoula. You can't do it. You can't just say shazaam and produce revenue, not even in your dreamworld.

Why don't you try putting together some factual information to support your assertions. Until you do, your audience will continue to be yourself, as it has been for years. I bring up valid points and you think that your little poo poo response makes your case. You can't make a case finacially and you know it. Your dismissal of MSU as being a factor in any such discussion about a move to D1 is proof you do not comprehend how things work in Montana. You are apparently spending most of your time milking those "happy cows' in California. You don't think 1 year contracts are an issue. If they aren't why has ever coach on 20 plus years mentioned them when they leave? Even if we could offer multi year contracts where does the money come from to pay the big bucks?

City, you have a right to have your dream about D1. You just do not have any legitimacy until you can back up your claims with some facts. I challenge you to lay out a plan that works based on fact.

Here is a starter for you because I am sure you have no clue. Fresno State has an athletic budget over $20,000,000. The ball is in your court big timer.
 
City,

Since you never have facts to back up your pipedreams of the WAC Conference here is something for you to chew on. This is from SMU's AD, in 2004.

Jim Copeland's A.D. Notepad

June 18, 2004

Last week, I wrote about the revenue side of our budget and all that it entails. This week I will talk about our expenses.

As I mentioned in last week's column, the costs of operating a competitive Division IA program have increased at a substantial rate over the last several years. Increases in our revenue, specifically our gate receipts, fundraising and corporate sponsorships, over the last 10 years have been significant but our expenses have increased considerably as well. Support from our Mustang Club members is critical to our operation and as I mentioned last week, we are constantly examining our budget to make sure we steward our dollars in the most efficient possible way.

Our athletic budget, including the cost of scholarships, is just over $21 million, which places us towards the middle of the pack in the Western Athletic Conference and in the same area when compared with schools that will make up the new Conference USA in July of 2005.


That is MIDDLE OF THE PACK $$ he is talking about! $21,000,000. There is not a snowballs chance in hell UM can come up with that amount of money, which puts us in the BOTTOM OF THE PACK in your version of the WAC dream. Do I need to tell you where we would be competetively in this sceanario?

Please do tell all of us how you can make it work. Not with hyperbole either, I want to see you make the numbers work.
 
citygriz said:
taking your last paragraph first, i would remind you that the first fallacy of debate is arguing from specifics. let's go instead by post-katrina polls showing two per cent support among african-americans for george bush--with a three per cent margin of error! which means condi and williams may be the only blacks left in america who support bush--the oreo cookie on the supreme court excepted.

You and I agree on Black support for Bush. I was being sarcastic. But I still don't know what the hell it has to do with the topic at hand. I can be slow on the take sometimes, care to enlighten me?

as to the other, you argue for a tough pre-season schedule, and so do i, but when i argue for a tough conference schedule as well, you go all wobbly on me. i take it as an article of faith that you get to be the best by playing the best; that utah state, fresno state, hawaii and nevada (and their arenas) represent a real upgrade from the big sky. if eastern had our fifteen year record of excellence in football, or our 25 year record of dominance in women's basketball, you'd be a fool for not eyeing the wac too, which is to say, you'd be sitting over next to grizbacker 1.

Tournament wins and the overall success of the program are not one in the same. So I'm not convinced that GU's weak conference schedule has or will hurt them. If this year's team was in the WAC with 2 or 3 more losses, they would get roughly the same seed.


Being a fan of the BSC and Northwest sports in general I have a stake in the success of both Griz football and Zag hoops, and I'm proud of their success. But even if Eastern were to equal both schools success in the respective sports, I'd be very comfortable with them remaining in the Big Sky - it's where we belong, and you guys too.
 
I am not that big of a fan of a leap to the WAC but I do think that it is plausible to make the jump. Here is why:
The average WAC budget is 12.1 million dollars and Utah States budget was 8.9 million. I will use that number to shoot for.
I couldn't find what our budget was but I found an article that states that the average 1-aa budget was 5.1 million dollars. I would assume that ours is a bit larger so lets assume that we have a 6 million dollar budget.(I am sure i will be corrected on this) Here is where we go into a bit of a stretch. If we were able to schedule one marquee match up like Iowa each year that would give us roughly 600 to 800 dollars per contest. Throw in a lower tier bowl game at roughly 800-1.3 million dollars per contest this gets us into the 1.5 - 2 million dollars. Add on top of this the additional TV money (roughly 100000) and shared conference revenue plus the revenue we would get from a bigger football stadium (we need to seat 30000 to qualify for d-1a I think) and we are getting closer to that 8.9 million dollar budget. However this puts us at the bottom of a conference that is by no means a national power. I hope this illustrates that this is plausible but probably not in our best interest.
 
Grizbacker1 said:
Swilly3224 said:
Boise was top 10 in football not too long ago so I wouldnt have a problem with being them for a day!

Swilly,

Ever taken Economics 101? If the answer is no, you should, if the answer is yes, retake it.

Grizbacker1, Swilly is only 16, he hasn't taken much of anything...
 
scottsdalegriz said:
I am not that big of a fan of a leap to the WAC but I do think that it is plausible to make the jump. Here is why:
The average WAC budget is 12.1 million dollars and Utah States budget was 8.9 million. I will use that number to shoot for.
I couldn't find what our budget was but I found an article that states that the average 1-aa budget was 5.1 million dollars. I would assume that ours is a bit larger so lets assume that we have a 6 million dollar budget.(I am sure i will be corrected on this) Here is where we go into a bit of a stretch. If we were able to schedule one marquee match up like Iowa each year that would give us roughly 600 to 800 dollars per contest. Throw in a lower tier bowl game at roughly 800-1.3 million dollars per contest this gets us into the 1.5 - 2 million dollars. Add on top of this the additional TV money (roughly 100000) and shared conference revenue plus the revenue we would get from a bigger football stadium (we need to seat 30000 to qualify for d-1a I think) and we are getting closer to that 8.9 million dollar budget. However this puts us at the bottom of a conference that is by no means a national power. I hope this illustrates that this is plausible but probably not in our best interest.

I think your numbers may be whacked. The average WAC budget is $21,000,000, this is from a former AD in the WAC (see my previous post). The attendance numbers you cite are also incorrect, if they what you suggest, Idaho and others would have been out of 1A by now. Where is the money going to come from on TV? The market UM is in doesn't grow just because you say you are D1. You didn't address the added cost of more women's sports, heard of Title IX? You have barely begun to scratch the surface. I defy anyone to show me how the numbers can work. EVEN IF THEY DID, which they won't, you still will never get UM there without also taking msu. There is NO CHANCE that would be allowed to happen. City can dream all he wants, but someday he might wake up, now i am dreaming.
 
Well let me quote my sources:
This excerpt was taken from an anaylsis of the university of idaho athletic budget dated october 8 2004
"with other WAC and Division I-A programs (UI’s athletic budget is ~$9M vs. a WAC average of $13-$14M."
here is the link:
http://www.president.uidaho.edu/documents/Kenton%20analysis%2010-9-04.pdf&pid=73067&doc=1

Here is the site that I quoted utah states athletic budget from. It also shows all of the other schools budgets:
http://mariah95.com/sports/wacalltimefootball.htm

Obviously these budget numbers include the increase in scholorships to comply with title IX

Here is the excerpt from the stadium clause that I mentioned:

Averaging more than 20,000 paid attendance per football game (home and away) over the previous four years.

Having a minimum of 30,000 seats in the home stadium plus 20,000 average paid attendance per football game (home and away) at least one year in the previous four-year period.

This was taken from UConn's site from a Q&A session when it was deciding to go d-1. This also why Idaho has to play half of there games up in pulman at wazzu's stadium

Here is the link:
http://www.advance.uconn.edu/1997/971027/fballqa.htm

As for the tv money I found a site that says that is what each schools cut of the WAC tv contract was. The market for the TV doesn't depend soley on montana but for the whole conference. The site i found was actually comparing it to the much larger deal the Mountain West just signed which just signed a seven year deal with ESPN. I can't find the site but its out there.
 
OK, lets say the real numbers lie somewhere between your source and my source who was an AD in the WAC. If that is the case then you need to come up with about 5-6 million more. Now please tell me how you are going to move Montana up and leave msu at D1aa. This ought to be good.
 
city sayeth: in life there are no pure plays; everything is a balance sheet. so: we have two tasks before us.

first: make up a balance sheet--assets and liabilities. how much would we gain by moving up? how much would it cost?

second: determine who has the right numbers. big discrepancy already between the numbers scottsdalegriz has posted--listing most wac budgets in the eight to 15 million range--and those of gb1's source, claiming $21 million to be THE AVERAGE BUDGET IN THE WAC!!!! it's important we get the right numbers and not those fudged to support one side's point of view.

on the asset side:
1. the wac facilities for both bb and fb are much much better than the big sky. the smallest football stadium is idaho's 16,000, but every other stadium seats at least 30,000, with hawaii the biggest at 50,000, and fresno next at 41000. in bb, san jose state's arena is modern but small at 5000, while louisiana tech checks in at 8000. except for those two, every wac arena seats more than 10,000, with fresno topping out at 16,600. (i couldn't get the seating capacity for new mexico state.) seems to me that all those seats translate into far bigger crowds than in the big sky, with bigger guarantees for each school, and--except for hawaii and louisiana tech--no greater travel expense. so a number to be filled in: the bigger guarantees in both major revenue sports as a result of better facilities.
2. there is some tv revenue--$5 million to be divvied up among the wac members (if i'm to believe the one source i found) versus zilch in the big sky. if boise state had qualified for a b.c.s. bowl (against louisville, as many felt they should have) that would have yielded a $13 million bonanza for the wac. i simply don't know what it means to a conference to have one or two teams make the sweet 16--more numbers to stick into our balance sheet.
3. with more scholarships and i-a status we'd be able to upgrade our non-conference schedule to include another payday or two like iowa.
4. while montana's market may be small, it's both a growing market and a pure market in that there's no competition from local pro teams.

now, on the liability side:
1. few corporate sponsors, as gb 1 notes;
2. the need to add another three minor sports;
3. the added costs of scholarships and recruiting budgets;
4. small market;
5. less state funding than is probably available from other states.
6. the cats.

so our task here is to add to either the asset or liability side, and then attach credible numbers to all entries.

finally, i'd like to shock gb1 by partially agreeing with him--the big sky has been good to montana's athletic program, and i am all for staying with it FOR THE TIME BEING.

reason is, i think conference alignments are still in a state of flux, and while the big eastern powers have already decided that 12 is the ideal conference size, neither the wac nor the mountain west is there yet. i look for the mwc to raid the wac for boise state, fresno state and nevada, leaving one more slot to fill, and in my dream scenario, montana would be that 12th team, re-aligning us with our rivals from the old skyline conference (utah, byu, new mexico, wyoming and colorado state) and the big sky (nevada and boise state.) our competition for that twelth slot would be utah state (the victim of an intra-state feud in utah), idaho (poor facilities), new mexico state (no way), davis (no glamour or tradition), hawaii (real competition.) that would leave the wac to raid the big sky, with sac state and portland state already itching to move up, and weber state, eastern washington, montana state likely candidates as well.

in the future, there will be no i-aa, and no big sky, unless the wac were smart enough to adopt its name.

as for the cats, maybe the less i know about montana politics, the better. it is the case that as we get less and less money from the state for either education or athletics, we virtually become a private school--the fate of almost all schools in america. it may transpire that the board of regents can pass all the resolutions they want to little effect if they don't control the purse strings.

and then there is the precedent: the schools were in separate conferences once, and it did little to diminish the rivalry.
 
whoops! i just remembered the mwc added t.c.u., so they're already at nine, with three more to go--likely fresno, nevada and boise state. as i said, a dream scenario. oh, well.

hi, bobcats!
 
citygriz said:
whoops! i just remembered the mwc added t.c.u., so they're already at nine, with three more to go--likely fresno, nevada and boise state. as i said, a dream scenario. oh, well.

hi, bobcats!

City,

You are starting to get some of your homework done. As i said, no matter if you "best case scenario' it do death, which is the only way you can even come close to generating the revenue needed, you will never get the powers that be to sign off on it without msu. You need Boise State or someone in a BCS game to even have a snowballs chance. I am afraid the chance of them getting a BCS game has all but melted. You my friend, have a big hill to climb, and you live at sea level.

I suggest you begin you quest for that inner city point guard. You have a much better chance at that. You have no chance at the WAC, errr, should I say whacky. :thumb:
 
Grizbacker1 said:
billings_poke said:
Here ya go guys AD budgets for 2005 and the WAC is no where near an average of $20 mil.

Wyo has an AD budget of $20 Mill however

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp

Montana shows $14 mil in revenues and $12 mil in expenses


Here is the main search site for the data

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/Search.asp

If our revenues are 2,000,000 more than expenses as you suggest, how in the hell do we have a deficit?

Those are the numbers your AD reported to the ed department. Must be a bookkeeping thing
 
I think you need to add in the Athletically-Related Student Aid
of 2,431,111. This would give a total expense of 14,554,554 resulting in 222,263 of income which is certainly within reason. In spot checking a few of the institutions in the 2005 WAC it looks like Fresno State - 25 million and Idaho is the low man at 9 million. Our 14 million is pretty much in line with several of there other institutions. In any case that is way more than the 4-5 million you asked me to find. As far as Montana State goes North Dakota State left UND and South Dakota State left USD to come to our level so it is not a complete stretch to think that it can't work in Montana.
 
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