Good, Bad, Ugly - USD

[mthoopsfan]

What baffles me is that Baer knows the limitations of three safeties on the field @ all times and doesn’t compensate by adjusting to an extra corner to cover the slot in later passing downs or long yardage. This could be managed by moving Hauck into the box - pull one of your blitzers and replace him with a corner to cover the slot. He’d be blitzing himself - which he’s shown he can do, or shadowing a QB, covering a back in the flat, etc. The backers don’t all blitz at once very often and it would be a wash in terms of having Hauck or one of them cover a back, account for the QB run etc.

A perfect example from this past season was EWU moving Jines to the slot, forcing the safeties to cover him. There are four or five competent corners now. Like I said, the word is out and the good O/c’s are going to exploit it again this season.

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

Again, I played corner in college, pay good attention to secondary coverage, talk to our Griz players on occasion, and talk some to the secondary coaches. I don't know the current secondary coaches like I knew their predecessors. You may more than I do.

 

[Alaska Griz]

I so agree, and have said so for years!

You are much more pious than I, because I will always "boo" the opposing team, cheer their mistakes, hope they look ridiculous, and pray they get embarrassed enough to cancel their football program. I guess I'm not as good as you as a human.

Agreed. It's part of the game. Nothing to take personally. I would expect to get booed on the road. Maybe even relish it!

 

[mthoopsfan]

You are much more pious than I, because I will always "boo" the opposing team, cheer their mistakes, hope they look ridiculous, and pray they get embarrassed enough to cancel their football program. I guess I'm not as good as you as a human.

Agreed. It's part of the game. Nothing to take personally. I would expect to get booed on the road. Maybe even relish it!

I never got booed once in life. That's why I enjoy it on egriz. . Ha.

 

[griz98]

What baffles me is that Baer knows the limitations of three safeties on the field @ all times and doesn’t compensate by adjusting to an extra corner to cover the slot in later passing downs or long yardage. This could be managed by moving Hauck into the box - pull one of your blitzers and replace him with a corner to cover the slot. He’d be blitzing himself - which he’s shown he can do, or shadowing a QB, covering a back in the flat, etc. The backers don’t all blitz at once very often and it would be a wash in terms of having Hauck or one of them cover a back, account for the QB run etc.

A perfect example from this past season was EWU moving Jines to the slot, forcing the safeties to cover him. There are four or five competent corners now. Like I said, the word is out and the good O/c’s are going to exploit it again this season.

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

Again, I played corner in college, pay good attention to secondary coverage, talk to our Griz players on occasion, and talk some to the secondary coaches. I don't know the current secondary coaches like I knew their predecessors. You may more than I do.

I'm not sure but wasn't TraJon Cotton converted from CB to Safety this year? If so, he might be a good choice to be the safety that would cover the slot receiver.

 

[mthoopsfan]

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

Again, I played corner in college, pay good attention to secondary coverage, talk to our Griz players on occasion, and talk some to the secondary coaches. I don't know the current secondary coaches like I knew their predecessors. You may more than I do.

I'm not sure but wasn't TraJon Cotton converted from CB to Safety this year? If so, he might be a good choice to be the safety that would cover the slot receiver.

Cotton was converted from safety at Oregon St. to corner when he came to UM. Last season, he played the 5th d-back position with no. 4. This season, a number of the safeties seem to playing multiple safety positions, including Cotton.

 

[garizzalies]

What baffles me is that Baer knows the limitations of three safeties on the field @ all times and doesn’t compensate by adjusting to an extra corner to cover the slot in later passing downs or long yardage. This could be managed by moving Hauck into the box - pull one of your blitzers and replace him with a corner to cover the slot. He’d be blitzing himself - which he’s shown he can do, or shadowing a QB, covering a back in the flat, etc. The backers don’t all blitz at once very often and it would be a wash in terms of having Hauck or one of them cover a back, account for the QB run etc.

A perfect example from this past season was EWU moving Jines to the slot, forcing the safeties to cover him. There are four or five competent corners now. Like I said, the word is out and the good O/c’s are going to exploit it again this season.

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

I was going to bite my tongue but since some nut thinks we’re the same person, I might as well disagree with you here (as I have 100s of times before on other issues according to my posting history).
Maybe we are talking about the same thing and I would just word it differently, or use different terminology.
I agree with your last few sentences but not your first one. I don’t think The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. I agree four safeties get the vast majority of the snaps but only two of them sub, and two do not.
My hang-up is the word “rotate”. It seems only two safeties (#4 & #3) “rotate” and only for each other at their specific position unless an extra DB is sent in to play. This position was the only “or” on the 2deep.
The other two safeties (#5 & #17) rarely come off the field except in mop-up duty, and like you said, they do not trade positions.

 

[mthoopsfan]

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

I was going to bite my tongue but since some nut thinks we’re the same person, I might as well disagree with you here (as I have 100s of times before on other issues according to my posting history).
Maybe we are talking about the same thing and I would just word it differently, or use different terminology.
I agree with your last few sentences but not your first one. I don’t think The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. I agree four safeties get the vast majority of the snaps but only two of them sub, and two do not.
My hang-up is the word “rotate”. It seems only two safeties (#4 & #3) “rotate” and only for each other at their specific position unless an extra DB is sent in to play. This position was the only “or” on the 2deep.
The other two safeties (#5 & #17) rarely come off the field except in mop-up duty, and like you said, they do not trade positions.

Hauck plays the same position, free safety. Nos. 3 and 4 play 2 different d-back positions, one a true safety position and one the no. 5 d-back. No. 5 plays strong safety. I don't know if he ever plays the 5th d-back position. Lee and Koppang play safety too. So, there are 6 guys playing 3 positions (including the 5th d-back). I'm know sure how much Koppang gets in. At least, several of the kids play 2 different positions. It is not correct that 4 and 3 split one position. I've actually talked to Cotton about this, after noticing different positions in the first game. No. 5 is off the field a decent amount. Note that nos. 3 and 4 are often on the field at the same time, tho not at the start of the game.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I was going to bite my tongue but since some nut thinks we’re the same person, I might as well disagree with you here (as I have 100s of times before on other issues according to my posting history).
Maybe we are talking about the same thing and I would just word it differently, or use different terminology.
I agree with your last few sentences but not your first one. I don’t think The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. I agree four safeties get the vast majority of the snaps but only two of them sub, and two do not.
My hang-up is the word “rotate”. It seems only two safeties (#4 & #3) “rotate” and only for each other at their specific position unless an extra DB is sent in to play. This position was the only “or” on the 2deep.
The other two safeties (#5 & #17) rarely come off the field except in mop-up duty, and like you said, they do not trade positions.

Hauck plays the same position, free safety. Nos. 3 and 4 play 2 different d-back positions, one a true safety position and one the no. 5 d-back. No. 5 plays strong safety. I don't know if he ever plays the 5th d-back position. Lee and Koppang play safety too. So, there are 6 guys playing 3 positions (including the 5th d-back). I'm know sure how much Koppang gets in. At least, several of the kids play 2 different positions. It is not correct that 4 and 3 split one position. I've actually talked to Cotton about this, after noticing different positions in the first game. No. 5 is off the field a decent amount. Note that nos. 3 and 4 are often on the field at the same time, tho not at the start of the game.

This is a more accurate representation of playing times/position/combinations.

 

[garizzalies]

I was going to bite my tongue but since some nut thinks we’re the same person, I might as well disagree with you here (as I have 100s of times before on other issues according to my posting history).
Maybe we are talking about the same thing and I would just word it differently, or use different terminology.
I agree with your last few sentences but not your first one. I don’t think The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. I agree four safeties get the vast majority of the snaps but only two of them sub, and two do not.
My hang-up is the word “rotate”. It seems only two safeties (#4 & #3) “rotate” and only for each other at their specific position unless an extra DB is sent in to play. This position was the only “or” on the 2deep.
The other two safeties (#5 & #17) rarely come off the field except in mop-up duty, and like you said, they do not trade positions.

Hauck plays the same position, free safety. Nos. 3 and 4 play 2 different d-back positions, one a true safety position and one the no. 5 d-back. No. 5 plays strong safety. I don't know if he ever plays the 5th d-back position. Lee and Koppang play safety too. So, there are 6 guys playing 3 positions (including the 5th d-back). I'm know sure how much Koppang gets in. At least, several of the kids play 2 different positions. It is not correct that 4 and 3 split one position. I've actually talked to Cotton about this, after noticing different positions in the first game. No. 5 is off the field a decent amount. Note that nos. 3 and 4 are often on the field at the same time, tho not at the start of the game.

Yes I think we are basically saying the same thing or maybe I am being hyper-technical.
The point I was trying to make was that the 4 main safeties do not rotate around the 3 spots in the traditional way. It is more positional/situational with one not moving at all, and the 2 backup safeties only get clean up.

 

[Bok_Choi]

What baffles me is that Baer knows the limitations of three safeties on the field @ all times and doesn’t compensate by adjusting to an extra corner to cover the slot in later passing downs or long yardage. This could be managed by moving Hauck into the box - pull one of your blitzers and replace him with a corner to cover the slot. He’d be blitzing himself - which he’s shown he can do, or shadowing a QB, covering a back in the flat, etc. The backers don’t all blitz at once very often and it would be a wash in terms of having Hauck or one of them cover a back, account for the QB run etc.

A perfect example from this past season was EWU moving Jines to the slot, forcing the safeties to cover him. There are four or five competent corners now. Like I said, the word is out and the good O/c’s are going to exploit it again this season.

The Griz rotate at least 4 safeties. Some also play the 5th back. I think the 5th defender in some of the plays you mention is the 3d safety, usually no. 4 or no. 3. No. 3 very good speed. Except for Robbie, and maybe no. 5, the others trade positions. I'm not so sure that having corners play safety positions, unless they have experience doing that, is an easy thing to do.

Again, I played corner in college, pay good attention to secondary coverage, talk to our Griz players on occasion, and talk some to the secondary coaches. I don't know the current secondary coaches like I knew their predecessors. You may more than I do.

My only point is that the coaching staff knows that the good OC’s will try to exploit isolating their better receivers from the slot on safeties. With Ford & his counterpart on the other side, you’re practically inviting it because they do such a good job of handling the outside receivers. Not a new thing, been happening since this defense was employed in Missoula. When you know this, and still don’t adjust to it, I can only assume two things, (1) They’re hopeful the pass rush forces errant throws or gets home for a sack, (2) It’s too big a hassle to substitute a corner, of which they have five or six more than serviceable ones on the roster, for one of the safeties who would cover a slot receiver. I’m sure you’ll see a heavy dose of this from Sac State, Cal Poly, EWU and playoff teams come time. With UNDSU & UIW playing like they are, Montana is going to need to be undefeated this season to hope for a spot at home throughout the playoffs, where the field helps cover for issues like these.

 

[Griz#64]

Well. a long time ago, i recall The Rover, Monster, Strong safety, Free Safety. Is the 3/3 an upgrade that actually is a a Hybrid 5/3. or 3/5??. Of course we had Mike and Will, and Sam as well. You fellas i am sure can embellish . Yogi.

 

[garizzalies]

I like this discussion about the safeties.

I lifted this from Brint’s S’mores post-game thread (where the beloved graphs used to be):

- TraJon Cotton started over Graves but it appeared the two rotated a lot. ISU went right after Cotton on the first series on a 3rd down pass but it was incomplete. Both Graves and Cotton finished with 2 tackles, Graves shared a TFL

I think the paper mentioned this too, and had a pic of Cotton, but did not elaborate.

My hypothesis is that the safeties do not “rotate” in the general sense and are used more situationally or are opponent or play specific.

I think Cotton matched up better vs ISU but maybe Graves will start vs PSU. Just a guess. Looks like the 2deep still lists Graves as starting, and TC behind Fouch.

Fun to watch.

 

[mthoopsfan]

I like this discussion about the safeties.

I lifted this from Brint’s S’mores post-game thread (where the beloved graphs used to be):

- TraJon Cotton started over Graves but it appeared the two rotated a lot. ISU went right after Cotton on the first series on a 3rd down pass but it was incomplete. Both Graves and Cotton finished with 2 tackles, Graves shared a TFL

I think the paper mentioned this too, and had a pic of Cotton, but did not elaborate.

My hypothesis is that the safeties do not “rotate” in the general sense and are used more situationally or are opponent or play specific.

I think Cotton matched up better vs ISU but maybe Graves will start vs PSU. Just a guess. Looks like the 2deep still lists Graves as starting, and TC behind Fouch.

Fun to watch.

My guess is that Cotton started in the 5th d-back position and Fouch took Graves spot at strong safety. I am virtually certain that Fouch, and I think Cotton too, are playing two positions. I don't think this is based on situational things. The strong safety and the 5th d-back definitely line up in different positions when they are on the field. They seem to be all over the place. I don't know the defense well enough to know who is really playing which position. By the way, usually, like this week, Fouch and Cotton are listed as OR, for the nickel back.

 

[garizzalies]

You’re probably right. The D is so unconventional and seems to get heavier after each level. Almost impossible for me to track during the game. Many moving parts but not as many substitutions as one might expect.

 

[SaskGriz]

I like this discussion about the safeties.

I lifted this from Brint’s S’mores post-game thread (where the beloved graphs used to be):

- TraJon Cotton started over Graves but it appeared the two rotated a lot. ISU went right after Cotton on the first series on a 3rd down pass but it was incomplete. Both Graves and Cotton finished with 2 tackles, Graves shared a TFL

I think the paper mentioned this too, and had a pic of Cotton, but did not elaborate.

My hypothesis is that the safeties do not “rotate” in the general sense and are used more situationally or are opponent or play specific.

I think Cotton matched up better vs ISU but maybe Graves will start vs PSU. Just a guess. Looks like the 2deep still lists Graves as starting, and TC behind Fouch.

Fun to watch.

Most of the time it appears the GRIZ don't really play with a traditional strong safety. Instead they seem to use a field side and a boundary side alignment. Graves usually lines up on the boundary side and is usually not over a receiver, instead reading a TE or RB release to his side. Since most teams play 11 personnel with a slot on the field side that is the receiver that Fouch/Cotton is usually playing. When Graves is out it appears that Fouch usually takes his position. Hauck really does play like a free safety pre-snap and only moves out when the opponent is playing 10 packages with with three receivers to the field side. Don't think I've seen anybody use 0 personnel against us or cluster three receivers to the boundary side, it would be interesting to see how we D'ed that. Sort of expect EWU type teams to maybe try those things.
So in a way it's 4 safeties covering three spots but really its more like 3 players covering 2 spots.

 

[406]

I sure thought Graves played well this week against PSU. Be interesting to see if he gets the start next week.