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Frank Gogola Article

Whoa the Hoops Troops are out in force now.

They get to decide who is a fan, who knows what, and who gets to post.

Challenge Hoops and you’re a Cat fan for life!

lol

I’m not aware that anyone has said the Cats had a better season than the Griz in 2023. The topic of this article is the disparity of the programs over the Hauck 2.0 years, and the facts are in the article. Bobby defenders scream about ‘23, but that year is clearly the outlier.

If you guys are happy about the state of the program, I guess that’s your opinion.

Real Griz fans see the disparity between the programs and are hoping for a change in direction, whatever it takes.

BTW, the OL HS commits and recent transfers are a good step in the right direction! I hope it continues!
 
Skookum-Jim said:
That is my point. I think Vigen will design the offense to the QB he'll have next year. There are two capable guys on the roster. Not sure what you mean about McKay. He was 10-1 when Tommy took over so there are not alot of stats to compare. He did run a much different offense with Tommy.
I'm glad everyone on here now agrees that Tommy is an amazing QB. It took you guys four years to say it. Now the narrative is that the cats can't win without him. I think next year will be just as fun as this year for them. They actually have a team and not just a couple of skill players that they rely on yo bail them out.
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Look, I just don't care. Maybe he'll get a dynamite QB that can make it work just as well next year, but there's a big chance not having a generational running talent at QB that is the engine to your offense is tough to replace.

If Brent leaves, this whole conversation is moot, anyways.
 
MontanaBornFan said:
Whoa the Hoops Troops are out in force now.

They get to decide who is a fan, who knows what, and who gets to post.

Challenge Hoops and you’re a Cat fan for life!

lol

I’m not aware that anyone has said the Cats had a better season than the Griz in 2023. The topic of this article is the disparity of the programs over the Hauck 2.0 years, and the facts are in the article. Bobby defenders scream about ‘23, but that year is clearly the outlier.

If you guys are happy about the state of the program, I guess that’s your opinion.

Real Griz fans see the disparity between the programs and are hoping for a change in direction, whatever it takes.

BTW, the OL HS commits and recent transfers are a good step in the right direction! I hope it continues!
Click to expand...
Listen, I don't know you and have no idea who you root for, so I take you at face value that you're not a cat fan that is trolling, that is fine. But you continue to ignore a few salient points that others make, just like Gogola did in his cherry picking article. I'm not saying you are a bad fan, I just disagree with the cherry picking. People can cherry pick in the other direction, too, to paint a picture.

1) The truth is that since 2020, the teams are relatively equal in wins. They have both made one national championship. That article manipulates a good bit. If the fortunes reverse next year, then all the same statements about "the Griz are where the Cats want to be" would apply. Just like they did last year in favor of the Griz. This is the fallacy of recency.

2) People want to point to "where the team finished in the Big Sky," but that is senseless when all the teams don't play each other. It has been discussed ad nauseum, but there have been years where all reasonable people agree that teams finish higher or lower than they should based largely on their schedule.

3) Hauck 2.0 started out WAY behind where the Cats were. It has been an undertaking to bring it back. Look at the Griz seasons and the trend from where it started. In the grid below, the last two columns are end of season poll rankings, and the 2024 isn't added in yet. 2023 wasn't an aberration, it was a continuation of a trend. Yes, this year was down year where the team (both players and coaches) underperformed vs. preseason expectations, and if next seasons is further underperforming expectations then maybe we reassess where Hauck's tenure is at, but you don't fire a great coach when the trend line is like this overall. (edit -- Can't get the formatting right to show the final two grids with poll rankings at the end)


2015Bob Stitt8–56–2T–2ndL NCAA Division I Second Round
2016Bob Stitt6–53–58th
2017Bob Stitt7–45–3T–6th
2018Bobby Hauck6–54–4T–6th
2019Bobby Hauck10–46–2T–3rdL NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2020Bobby Hauck2–00–0[n 2][n 2]
2021Bobby Hauck10–36–2T–3rdL NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2022Bobby Hauck8–54–46thL NCAA Division I Second Round
2023Bobby Hauck13-27-11stL NCAA Division I Championship
2024Bobby Hauck9-55-35thL NCAA Division I Second Round

​


We weren't even fielding teams ranked in the top-25 by the end of the Stitt tenure. Winning a national title is not the ONLY measure of a coach. Yes, of course I want things to continue to improve, but I don't know how you (or Frank Gogola) could claim this is a failed turnaround from what Hauck took over.
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
Listen, I don't know you and have no idea who you root for, so I take you at face value that you're not a cat fan that is trolling, that is fine. But you continue to ignore a few salient points that others make, just like Gogola did in his cherry picking article. I'm not saying you are a bad fan, I just disagree with the cherry picking. People can cherry pick in the other direction, too, to paint a picture.

1) The truth is that since 2020, the teams are relatively equal in wins. They have both made one national championship. That article manipulates a good bit. If the fortunes reverse next year, then all the same statements about "the Griz are where the Cats want to be" would apply. Just like they did last year in favor of the Griz. This is the fallacy of recency.

2) People want to point to "where the team finished in the Big Sky," but that is senseless when all the teams don't play each other. It has been discussed ad nauseum, but there have been years where all reasonable people agree that teams finish higher or lower than they should based largely on their schedule.

3) Hauck 2.0 started out WAY behind where the Cats were. It has been an undertaking to bring it back. Look at the Griz seasons and the trend from where it started. In the grid below, the last two columns are end of season poll rankings, and the 2024 isn't added in yet. 2023 wasn't an aberration, it was a continuation of a trend. Yes, this year was down year where the team (both players and coaches) underperformed vs. preseason expectations, and if next seasons is further underperforming expectations then maybe we reassess where Hauck's tenure is at, but you don't fire a great coach when the trend line is like this overall. (edit -- Can't get the formatting right to show the final two grids with poll rankings at the end)


2015Bob Stitt8–56–2T–2ndL NCAA Division I Second Round
2016Bob Stitt6–53–58th
2017Bob Stitt7–45–3T–6th
2018Bobby Hauck6–54–4T–6th
2019Bobby Hauck10–46–2T–3rdL NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2020Bobby Hauck2–00–0[n 2][n 2]
2021Bobby Hauck10–36–2T–3rdL NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2022Bobby Hauck8–54–46thL NCAA Division I Second Round
2023Bobby Hauck13-27-11stL NCAA Division I Championship
2024Bobby Hauck9-55-35thL NCAA Division I Second Round

​


We weren't even fielding teams ranked in the top-25 by the end of the Stitt tenure. Winning a national title is not the ONLY measure of a coach. Yes, of course I want things to continue to improve, but I don't know how you (or Frank Gogola) could claim this is a failed turnaround from what Hauck took over.
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You could make a stronger argument that Stitt had a much more difficult rebuilding job than BH.
 
HookedonGriz said:
I don’t care who he is. He didn’t light it up when he saw action this year. And you don’t just simply replace a potential Payton Award winner. You’ll miss his captain and leadership as much as his game play. The cats will not be close to as good at the most important position on the field. That will show 100%.
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True. No one expects the Cats to be 14 & 0 at this time next year & a redshirt freshman isn't going to see the field either. But I expect the Cats to challenge for the BSC title, assuming Vigen's still around and the portal doesn't decimate the roster. Two big assumptions. Any chance Bobby's considered for the WaZu job, or will he retire in Missoula?
 
I agree that Gogola’s article could have been framed more objectively. One obvious point he didn’t make was that the Griz glory years were during a much less diluted subdivision.

But a poster above framed the Bobcat 2023 season as bad and the Griz 2024 season as disappointing. That’s some convenient framing as well. The two seasons were pretty much the same.
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
We weren't even fielding teams ranked in the top-25 by the end of the Stitt tenure. Winning a national title is not the ONLY measure of a coach. Yes, of course I want things to continue to improve, but I don't know how you (or Frank Gogola) could claim this is a failed turnaround from what Hauck took over.
Click to expand...

First,

Thanks for the reasonable response.

Second,

You make some good points.

I’m not defending Stitt. Save one amazing win, he was objectively terrible and pretty much ran the program into the ground.

I could give a crap about the Big Sky rankings, other than the title, which I do think means something.

Bobby 2.0 is a big step up from Stitt. The “turnaround” has not been a failure. The team has gotten much better and made the Natty in ‘23.

The issue is Bobby sold it as RTD, which has not happened. To me, RTD means being a national contender year in and year out. I would guess that’s what he meant too. Maybe my expectations are too high.

Bobby could still do it. I hope so. If not, move on.
 
HikeGlacier said:
Intelligent people don't make ridiculous arguments. Stitt had a far more difficult rebuild than BH. Stitt was cleaning up BH's mess.
Click to expand...
Stitt inherited the leading receiver in UM history and two other standouts, the best OL he had, and had a defensive coordinator who didn't suck (that he ran out of town), and put up his only good season.
 
mtgriz said:
I agree that Gogola’s article could have been framed more objectively. One obvious point he didn’t make was that the Griz glory years were during a much less diluted subdivision.

But a poster above framed the Bobcat 2023 season as bad and the Griz 2024 season as disappointing. That’s some convenient framing as well. The two seasons were pretty much the same.
Click to expand...
So 5th is the new 3rd, and losing to SDSU and NDSU is the same as losing to Weber and North Dakota?
 
Stitt was a much better coach than what we have now. He was placed in a much worse scenario than when he turned over the program to Big Game Bob.

Hauck always gets good teams handed to him when he coaches at UM.

The problem is he doesn't make them better he maintains. Good coaches don't do that
 
GrizProtocol said:
Stitt was a much better coach than what we have now. He was placed in a much worse scenario than when he turned over the program to Big Game Bob.

Hauck always gets good teams handed to him when he coaches at UM.

The problem is he doesn't make them better he maintains. Good coaches don't do that
Click to expand...
Wait, what? He always gets good teams handed to him? You know that coaches recruit the teams, right? He was "handed" a team that wasn't ranked in the top 25.


MontanaBornFan said:
First,

Thanks for the reasonable response.

Second,

You make some good points.

I’m not defending Stitt. Save one amazing win, he was objectively terrible and pretty much ran the program into the ground.

I could give a crap about the Big Sky rankings, other than the title, which I do think means something.

Bobby 2.0 is a big step up from Stitt. The “turnaround” has not been a failure. The team has gotten much better and made the Natty in ‘23.

The issue is Bobby sold it as RTD, which has not happened. To me, RTD means being a national contender year in and year out. I would guess that’s what he meant too. Maybe my expectations are too high.

Bobby could still do it. I hope so. If not, move on.
Click to expand...
I guess we can agree that the marketing/selling of RTD was very ambitious. I'm glad that so far, Bobby has gotten us back to being a perennial top 10 team in the nation with regular playoff runs and a national championship appearance. I think we can both hope that we get back there next year, and that 2024 turns out to be an aberration.
 
ElrodGrizzly said:
I guess we can agree that the marketing/selling of RTD was very ambitious. I'm glad that so far, Bobby has gotten us back to being a perennial top 10 team in the nation with regular playoff runs and a national championship appearance. I think we can both hope that we get back there next year, and that 2024 turns out to be an aberration.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

The whole point to my posts is how do the Bobby 2.0 Griz make that happen from here.
 
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