FIVE YEARS

[grizzlyjournal]

There's a lot of emotion over at the eGriz football board right now... I thought about posting this over on the football board, but figure to make this only pertinent to basketball.

Everyone on this board knows about Wayne Tinkle's success as head coach of the Montana Grizzlies from 2006-14. Tinkle's teams won three Big Sky Conference tourneys and advanced to the NCAA playoffs and took second place the year after Montana's first post-season appearance under Tinkle.

But his first three years were rocky, to say the least. Tinkle took over the job after serving as Larry Krystkowiak's head assistant, a two year tenure that saw Montana win two straight Big Sky tourney titles and win its second-ever NCAA tourney game (big shoes to fill).

During Tinkle's first year the Griz went 17-15 and were eliminated in the Big Sky Conf. tourney. His second season, Montana slid to 14-16 -- a season in which the Griz were beaten (in Missoula) by eventual Big Sky champs Portland State, by a score of 108-55. I was at that post-game press conference and watched a subdued Tinkle try to answer reporters questions. Did he have a plan?

"Oh, yes, said Tinkle. The plan's already been implemented. We just need a bit more time." (This is a paraphrase. I don't have the actual quotes anymore, but I believe it to be accurate.)

His plan was recruitment based, and the first guy he recruited was a head assistant coach... former head coach of some reputation, Bill Evans, who is now head coach at Idaho State. The second was Anthony Johnson. The third was Will Cherry. Enough said.

Year three saw the Griz surge to a 17-12 record that was rubbed in soot when the Montana State Bobcats beat the Griz in Missoula in the first round of the Big Sky tourney finals.

It wasn't until year four that Tinkle's Grizzlies started making waves.

I write this because I am aware that most college sports observers believe a new coach needs between four to five years to build his own program.

I won't make any direct reference to football, but I can say I'm glad that Wayne Tinkle was given four years to build a solid hoops program at Montana.

 

[montanatarheel]

Patience is a virtue not often used when large sums of money are involved.

 

[Grizbeer]

Not to be a jerk, but based on this argument couldn't you also then argue that Pat Kennedy just needed 5 years and patience and he would have been successful at Montana as well? Were the problems in Tinkle's first 3 years that he didn't have his recruits, and the cupboard was empty? If so would this mean that Krystkowiak couldn't recruit at all and only won with Kennedy's recruits?

I think history tells us differently, that Tinkle was not prepared to take over the program his first couple years (adding Evans probably saved him), that Krystkowiak was a good recruiter and can build a program (based on what he has done in Utah), and Kennedy did not have sustained success after leaving UM, so probably the right decision.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Not to be a jerk, but based on this argument couldn't you also then argue that Pat Kennedy just needed 5 years and patience and he would have been successful at Montana as well? Were the problems in Tinkle's first 3 years that he didn't have his recruits, and the cupboard was empty? If so would this mean that Krystkowiak couldn't recruit at all and only won with Kennedy's recruits?

I think history tells us differently, that Tinkle was not prepared to take over the program his first couple years (adding Evans probably saved him), that Krystkowiak was a good recruiter and can build a program (based on what he has done in Utah), and Kennedy did not have sustained success after leaving UM, so probably the right decision.

Don't see any jerk factor in your solid argument; you justify it well. I understand how an argument for Kennedy, and Don Holst, can be made. And consider Travis DeCuire getting teams to the Big Sky playoffs his first season. There can be exceptions, but I don't have any to make.

I still believe in a minimum guaranteed contract for coaches on the college level, simply because it takes most coaches four years to recruit the players they need to complement their own system.

 

[UMGriz75]

Expectations were low for Wayne, and kept low by Wayne. He was not a self-promoter. He was not promoted as the Second Coming of Coachdom. He was also part of a successful tradition and the fanbase had a justifiable confidence in that.

 

[UMGriz75]

To its credit, when it appeared early on that Pat Kennedy was overhyped and underequipped, UM changed horses. It was the right thing to do. It's the "Engstrom Syndrome." Keep giving them time, more time, and then more time, and then when nothing is left, "gee, what happened?"

At MSU, Brad Huse got seven years, after all. His worst years came after he got "his own recruits," right?

Travis DeCuire has the best first year record of any Griz Men's BB coach in history, save for Blaine Taylor. With someone else's recruits.

And it's not just "records," it's quality. Reasonable people can distinguish between a self-promoting blowhard and a hard-working coach who can make it work. Athletic Directors sometimes can't.

 

[Grizbeer]

Press release today, UM Volleyball coach has resigned after 2 seasons. 1st year was 8-20, regressed this year to 5-21. His record was not too far off of recent historic records (6-23,16-15-6-23 in the 3 years before that), and I don't think there was high expectations for this team, but still no 5 years to get his players in place.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Press release today, UM Volleyball coach has resigned after 2 seasons. 1st year was 8-20, regressed this year to 5-21. His record was not too far off of recent historic records (6-23,16-15-6-23 in the 3 years before that), and I don't think there was high expectations for this team, but still no 5 years to get his players in place.

I noted this development this morning and reflected back on my initial post. I'm certain there can be extenuating circumstances any coaching situation that can short-circuit a coaching tenure. With coach Doyon, there was some controversy after his initial season, when several players transferred and/or left the program for "personal" reasons. I'm not one to judge what may have happened within the program, but the team's lack of competitive development seemed extreme. I believe that there were numerous issues with Mr. Kennedy's tenure as I recall, though I can't personally identify any, other than to say I didn't like his courtside behavior. He did have competitive players. Larry Krystkowiak benefitted, I believe, utilizing players recruited by both Kennedy and Don Holst... so quality players were within the system. I also know there was some very pointed criticism directed at Tinkle, which can be found on the eGriz basketball forum.

So, in the long run, the athletic director still takes the direct heat for a hire. I still maintain that Kent Haslam has done a pretty good job in hiring coaches to direct programs. Given the issues with Doyon, he'll probably develop a new list of priorities for selecting a volleyball head coach.

Football is somewhat unique, in my view. I am in accord with many who are still baffled with the firing of Jim O'Day and Robin Pflugrad. But there were certainly extenuating circumstances, many of which have probably never been fully revealed. Because of that history, I believe it's all the more important to give Bob Stitt full tenure to build the program (five years). Who knows? Maybe Mr. Stitt should consider a "Bill Evans" type hiring like Tinkle did. Just a guess on my part, though, since I'm merely a casual football fan.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Press release today, UM Volleyball coach has resigned after 2 seasons. 1st year was 8-20, regressed this year to 5-21. His record was not too far off of recent historic records (6-23,16-15-6-23 in the 3 years before that), and I don't think there was high expectations for this team, but still no 5 years to get his players in place.

I noted this development this morning and reflected back on my initial post. I'm certain there can be extenuating circumstances any coaching situation that can short-circuit a coaching tenure. With coach Doyon, there was some controversy after his initial season, when several players transferred and/or left the program for "personal" reasons. I'm not one to judge what may have happened within the program, but the team's lack of competitive development seemed extreme. I believe that there were numerous issues with Mr. Kennedy's tenure as I recall, though I can't personally identify any, other than to say I didn't like his courtside behavior. He did have competitive players. Larry Krystkowiak benefitted, I believe, utilizing players recruited by both Kennedy and Don Holst... so quality players were within the system. I also know there was some very pointed criticism directed at Tinkle, which can be found on the eGriz basketball forum.

So, in the long run, the athletic director still takes the direct heat for a hire. I still maintain that Kent Haslam has done a pretty good job in hiring coaches to direct programs. Given the issues with Doyon, Haslam will probably develop a new list of priorities for selecting a volleyball head coach.

Football is somewhat unique, in my view. I am in accord with many who are still baffled with the firing of Jim O'Day and Robin Pflugrad. But there were certainly extenuating circumstances, many of which have probably never been fully revealed. Because of that history, I believe it's all the more important to give Bob Stitt full tenure to build the program (five years). Who knows? Maybe Mr. Stitt should consider a "Bill Evans" type hiring like Tinkle did. Just a guess on my part, though, since I'm merely a casual football fan.

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Press release today, UM Volleyball coach has resigned after 2 seasons. 1st year was 8-20, regressed this year to 5-21. His record was not too far off of recent historic records (6-23,16-15-6-23 in the 3 years before that), and I don't think there was high expectations for this team, but still no 5 years to get his players in place.

I noted this development this morning and reflected back on my initial post. I'm certain there can be extenuating circumstances any coaching situation that can short-circuit a coaching tenure. With coach Doyon, there was some controversy after his initial season, when several players transferred and/or left the program for "personal" reasons. I'm not one to judge what may have happened within the program, but the team's lack of competitive development seemed extreme. I believe that there were numerous issues with Mr. Kennedy's tenure as I recall, though I can't personally identify any, other than to say I didn't like his courtside behavior. He did have competitive players. Larry Krystkowiak benefitted, I believe, utilizing players recruited by both Kennedy and Don Holst... so quality players were within the system. I also know there was some very pointed criticism directed at Tinkle, which can be found on the eGriz basketball forum.

So, in the long run, the athletic director still takes the direct heat for a hire. I still maintain that Kent Haslam has done a pretty good job in hiring coaches to direct programs. Given the issues with Doyon, Haslam will probably develop a new list of priorities for selecting a volleyball head coach. This was a very abrupt departure, with hints that there are frantic efforts being made to stabilize the program (like keeping current players from departing the team).

Football is somewhat unique, in my view. I am in accord with many who are still baffled with the firing of Jim O'Day and Robin Pflugrad. But there were certainly extenuating circumstances, many of which have probably never been fully revealed. Because of that history, I believe it's all the more important to give Bob Stitt full tenure to build the program (five years). Who knows? Maybe Mr. Stitt should consider a "Bill Evans" type hiring like Tinkle did. Just a guess on my part, though, since I'm merely a casual football fan.