fickle, heartless fans?

[Potomac Griz]

You have to actually make the tournament to upset the Zags in the first or second round.

Fixed that for you

The Griz may very well end up in the tournament this year. The only team that I don't think has much of a shot is PSU..but then again, who knows..

Weber is obviously the safest bet right now, since they are hosting the tournament, and once again have a very talented team... but they almost lost to the Griz in Weber earlier this year, and lost to PSU in the last regular season game of the year. And as we've seen in the past, hosting the tournament doesn't exactly guarantee you a tournament championship. Weber state is 12-1 at home this year though.. Their only loss at home is to USU (25-6). That's very impressive.

UNC is very good, but is without Beitzel now... how will they do against the Griz (who they beat in Montana, and who beat them in Colorado) without one of their top scorers? Since losing Beitzel they've struggled against EWU and PSU at home.

The Griz, minus that debacle against the Cats, have been playing very well in conference since January.....at home... This of course isn't in Missoula, so who knows. The Griz gave Weber a good game in Weber, but struggled against Sac State and lost to EWU on the road. If the Griz can come close to matching the intensity that they usually show at home, they have as good of a chance as any of the top 3 to make it to the NCAA tournament this year.

If I were betting money... I'd bet the Griz upset UNC, and end up playing WSU in the championship game (and unfortunately lose to Weber). If it comes down to Weber vs the Griz, it should be an exciting game with two of the top scorers in the league going at it again. With Sessions (did he really jump center against the Griz in Missoula?!), Cherry, Panos, Qvale, Stauds, and the rest of the talent on both sides, it should be a fun one to watch.

First things first though.. The Griz have a very tough matchup against a very talented UNC, and Weber is going against the team that beat them in the last game of the regular season.

1986Cat ELITE, Elite, elite, elitE 81-62 Ouch! ELite Gonzaga is not :shock:

:lol:

 

[WILDCATFAN]

Yeah Sessions did, Panos did most of our jumping the first of the year, but Sessions, all 6ft 2 of him is our leading rebounder, it was when we played at Idaho State and he jumped center in the 3rd overtime and won after Panos jumped the first 3 and lost them, so Sessions was given the job, and is still jumping center now.

Stranger things have happened

 

[1986cat]

You just can't win this won, LAGriz, until you actually support your assertions.

"A very competitive basketball team." - opinion, not supported by any fact.

"best football team of our class." - opinion, but widely known to be absolutely true.

What is known to be true about U of M basketball that is so great?

Gonzaga is a good program, granted but they lost their conference tourney and their conference is about par with the BSC....they are not as good as you say they are, in fact, the past weeks are looking pretty weak, like the rest of their conference. So, face it, all you have is an opinion and that of others...Gonzaga has had a nice run...but it appears over...my point is and has been since you decided to put your own spin on it, is the Griz have greatly improved season by season and now, in spite of what you say, boast a 20 win season, and with the level of talent coming in, will be even better next year....my opinion...and it as valid as yours or the guys who create the stats....20 wins is better than good. If you don't think so, then you and the Alpha guy need to talk....

Gonzaga, who returned one starter this season, managed to win 26 games this season and become a lock for the tourney. It is a down year for us and we still won 26 games. The run isn't over, LAGriz. We will still be dancing, regardless.

"The guy who creates the stats." Everybody uses RPI and SOS to determine the validity of a resume. Say what you want, but that is the standard in college basketball. You can argue with it all you want, tell me that the Griz (who won 18 games, not 20) shouldn't be held to the same "created stats," but at the end of the day, the guys who select teams to dance will be using those numbers. It isn't my own spin. It is the one objective standard used by all of college basketball.

It is remarkable that you want to wallow in mediocrity and are actually defending 20 wins as something to brag about. It isn't. In a down year, the Zags won 26 games. In what you call a good season, you won 18 games. Parity, that is not. It isn't even average. There isn't one team in the BSC that could regularly compete with the top two or three teams in the WCC. I know you guys THINK differently, but you don't actually back in up with anything. When asked to do so, you decry "some made up stats."

Pathetic.

 

[EverettGriz]

Any coach would be happy to have 20 wins. I grant you that fact. And of those 100+ coaches with 20 wins, 35 of them will not be dancing. That's the point. It doesn't separate you from anybody. You need quality wins over quality programs. Montana, for example, has 18 wins. Their RPI is 124. Their SOS is 237. Now, tell me, what about that profile, as close as you are to 20 wins, separates you from anybody else?

Montana already has 20 wins, not 18.


Just sayin'....

 

[ilovethecats]

86cat, i think you are still missing the point here. yes you are dancing. and you will be probably every year for a long time. but based on your program currently, and certainly based on what fans think of this program, going to the dance shouldn't mean anything. all teams and conferences are not equal. and the expectations of teams are definitely not equal. take unc this season. one could say that they are a bad team. but "bad" is relative. they play in a very difficult league. they have beaten some good teams. they would beat anyone in most of the conferences in the country. will they be dancing? not unless they min the acc tourney. but no one is going to convince me that they are a worse team than wofford or siena because those teams are dancing and the heels will be left out. right now the zags have one major thing going for them. they are constantly a top 15-20 team playing in a lousy conference. you guys get far better players than anyone else in your conference. your facilities shatter those of the other teams. most years, you don't ever get tested within your league. you situation is very unique. the elite teams in the country all play in very difficult conferences where they are all tested every night. and all of the smaller mid and low majors don't have the same talent obviously...yet the talent is very even across the board within those conferences. i think that is what makes winning the big sky so difficult. it's not about the strength of the conference as a whole. it's about the difference in talent between the top team or teams...and the rest of the league. this year in the wcc you have gonzaga and st marys (yet even you have to admit it's very rare that the zags ever get tested), and the rest of the league is horrible. you guys SHOULD win that league every year. in the big sky, teams don't have a recruiting advantage or a facilities advantage over the rest of the pack. so to me, you bragging about the zags on a big sky message board is proof that the zags are far from elite. imagine a jayhawk fan telling a weber state fan how great the hawks are and how impressive it is that they are dancing. even though they could because i guarantee it's way harder for the jayhawks to win the big 12 than it is for the zags to win the wcc. does that mean the zags are better than the hawks? don't think so. the point is, is that even when you make the dance, if you only win once or twice before getting bounced, based on what your fans think your program is...it should be every bit of a dissapointment as the big sky team losing in the opening game. the zags SHOULD be way better than the big sky team...however, this year i don't think they are seperated by much. i also expect the zags to once again lose early.

 

[Grizfan-24]

Look, Gonzaga is a class program in the west. There is no two ways around it, yet they aren't in any way a class program nationally. Why? Cause they haven't been able to break into the true national title picture yet. They are a fringe national power, and probably won't be until they can bring in the type of recruit haul that Kansas or UNC does.

The WCC isn't much better than the Big Sky. In Lunardi's daily rpi, the WCC's top three SM, Zags and Portland are the only above .500 on the rpi, just as UofM, WSU and North Col are in the BSC. Are the three WCC equal to the BSC top three, heck no. SM's is fast becoming a consistent top 25-50 team much like Butler has over the past four or five years. But the bottom of each conference isn't all that great no matter how you slice it.

UofM's potential move to a conference like the WAC has a better chance of improving our basketball program for the better. I think the Zags are limited in their moves because of their lack of a football program. Zags would be an attractive basketball choice (both men and womens) for the PAC-10, but don't have football. I truly beleive the Zags won't be that true top 10 power until they move above the WCC. Their program is better than probably half of the PAC-10 annually.

I for one applaud all that Gonzaga has done, but I as a long time UofM basketball fan am frustrated at the declining interest in UofM basketball. The exodus from the conference of traditional rivals didn't help, and a run of mediocre basketball in the late 90's didn't help either. 20 wins in a season is a great, but I am not sure how that brings back fans. We are only going to win one NCAA tournament game in reality once maybe a decade, and winning the BSC holds little alure to the citizens of Missoula. Nor does playing MSU. Used to be an instant sellout, and that doesn't get people in the door anymore either. I guess that may explain why so many fans are a bit fickle and fairwheather. There are very few individuals who still go to games that were around 10 let alone 20 or 30 years ago.

 

[Grizbeer]

Any coach would be happy to have 20 wins. I grant you that fact. And of those 100+ coaches with 20 wins, 35 of them will not be dancing. That's the point. It doesn't separate you from anybody. You need quality wins over quality programs. Montana, for example, has 18 wins. Their RPI is 124. Their SOS is 237. Now, tell me, what about that profile, as close as you are to 20 wins, separates you from anybody else?

Montana already has 20 wins, not 18.


Just sayin'....

2 wins were over NAIA teams - count on the schedule, but not considered by NCAA, rankings, ratings, RPI, SOS or national media, so they basically don't count. Griz had 1 other game against an NAIA as an exhibition. Really if you count 20 wins might as well say 21. or 22 if you count the scrimmage. Lets just count NCAA D-I wins and be happy with 18 and counting.

 

[Potomac Griz]

One thing I really don't get (and judging by a Google search of "gonzaga" and "overrated" I'm not the only one) is why Gonzaga is ranked so high, and projected at a 7 seed in the NCAA tournament.

RPI wise, the WCC is even with the Horizon league (are they an elite conference?), and ranked lower than the CAA, WAC, and Conference USA. The CAA has Old Dominion (26-8) winning the auto bid. Old Dominion's RPI is 29 with an 84 SOS. Gonzaga's RPI is 37 with an SOS of 111. Old Dominion is in a better conference than the WCC, has a better RPI and SOS. Yet ESPN's Bracketology has Old Dominion as a 10 seed and Gonzaga as a 7. Ok....

Next lets look at Siena. Siena is from the MAAC, which is right below WCC/Horizon. Siena's RPI is 34, with an SOS of 126. They are projected as a 12 seed.. Gonzaga is a 7?

Northern Iowa from the MVC (several spots ahead of the WCC) has an RPI rating of 18 with an SOS of 107, they are projected as a 9.

What is with the infatuation with Gonzaga and them consistently being given better seeds and rankings than they deserve?

Hell... Washington, with their 49 RPI and 61 SOS and in a much better conference is being left out of the NCAA tournament most likely this year.

1986cat... Do the Zags, who have a worse RPI and a worse SOS than Old Dominion and Northern Iowa, and play in a weaker conference deserve to get a better seed in the tournament than those two teams? I'm sure I can find other examples if I look, but those are two that jumped out at me right away. Just curious about your thoughts on this, since you like to point out the RPI and SOS of teams

 

[griz8791]

One would think fans of an "elite" program like Gonzaga would have much better things to do with their time than spending day after day on the message board of the fourth-place team in a one-bid league scolding the fans of said team about refusing to drink the Gonzaga kool-aid.

 

[MT Jack]

Is crack smoking back in vogue? Possibly if anyone thinks that the top teams in the Big Sky Conference are comparable overall programs to Gonzaga and St. Marys.

That doesn't mean a UM, UNC or Weber State couldn't beat the Bulldogs or Gaels given the right circumstances. I'll temper this all by saying that Gonzaga and St. Marys are far from being where North Carolina, Kansas, UCLA, UConn or Duke are as programs. I'd love to see Gonzaga reach that level but it's now 10 years+ into their run without a breakthrough final four run. Doubtful they'll reach that level but to bag on what they have done is plain nuts. They continue to compete and can beat just about anyone at any time but it hasn't happened when it counts (i.e. NCAA's) and until it does haters will have ample fuel.

Fan bases of one mid-major conference bashing and dragging down the fan base of another mid-major conference seems counter intuitive to me. Like crabs in a bucket. I love March Madness more than any other sporting event out ther because the small schools truly have a chance to compete on a neutral site against the big boys of collegiate athletics. The best thing that could happen to the Big Sky conference right now would be multiple teams step up and improve their programs. Football, basketball....any sport. The same goes for the WCC. The rest of the sports world may look down their nose at St Marys winning the conference tournament but I think it's one of the best things to happen to WCC basketball - a legitimate competitor in conference.

Good luck tonight, Griz bball team and fans. I hope to catch part of the game on the bigskytv.org.

MTJack

 

[ilovethecats]

jack, again i don't think anyone is saying that. what many of us are saying is that the wcc is far from a good conference. they are a very average conference who happens to have one pretty good team playing in it. yes, this year st. marys seems to be a pretty good team too. they have good guard play and a very good big man. but this year is an exception. gonzaga is in a situation unlike any other school in the country. they are always in the top 20, yet they play in a conference barely better than the big sky. no one is smoking crack here. top to bottom, the big sky is very comparable to the wcc. sure, gonzaga and st. marys would be at the very top. but teams like um, wsu, and even unc are better teams than san diego, santa clara, pepperdine, etc. those teams are really bad. so no, it wouldn't be fair to compare our conference to gonzaga. but the big sky compares quite well to the rest of the wcc. take gonzaga away from that league and they are suddenly near the worst conferences in hoops.

 

[1986cat]

Is crack smoking back in vogue? Possibly if anyone thinks that the top teams in the Big Sky Conference are comparable overall programs to Gonzaga and St. Marys.

That doesn't mean a UM, UNC or Weber State couldn't beat the Bulldogs or Gaels given the right circumstances. I'll temper this all by saying that Gonzaga and St. Marys are far from being where North Carolina, Kansas, UCLA, UConn or Duke are as programs. I'd love to see Gonzaga reach that level but it's now 10 years+ into their run without a breakthrough final four run. Doubtful they'll reach that level but to bag on what they have done is plain nuts. They continue to compete and can beat just about anyone at any time but it hasn't happened when it counts (i.e. NCAA's) and until it does haters will have ample fuel.

Fan bases of one mid-major conference bashing and dragging down the fan base of another mid-major conference seems counter intuitive to me. Like crabs in a bucket. I love March Madness more than any other sporting event out ther because the small schools truly have a chance to compete on a neutral site against the big boys of collegiate athletics. The best thing that could happen to the Big Sky conference right now would be multiple teams step up and improve their programs. Football, basketball....any sport. The same goes for the WCC. The rest of the sports world may look down their nose at St Marys winning the conference tournament but I think it's one of the best things to happen to WCC basketball - a legitimate competitor in conference.

Good luck tonight, Griz bball team and fans. I hope to catch part of the game on the bigskytv.org.

MTJack

Well put. I agree with mostly everything you have said. Gonzaga needs good competition in the WCC. It helps our RPI and gives us a competitive game later in the season, as opposed to them all being front loaded at the beginning of the season.

I have never said Gonzaga is a UNC, Kansas, or Syracuse. We can regularly compete with those programs, and could beat some of them, but we have not been to a final 4 yet. We have a limited history of success, all of it coming in the last 11 years. My point is to separate Gonzaga from the Big Sky and the rest of the mid majors. Many basketball experts and coaches do not consider Gonzaga to be mid-major, other than in conference affiliation. That's the point. No, LaGriz, there is no parity between Gonzaga and the U of M. Sorry, but your regional little brother syndrome is irrelevant. It is your opinion, and has not been justified by anything Montana has done to the detriment of Gonzaga basketball.

 

[Potomac Griz]

My point is to separate Gonzaga from the Big Sky and the rest of the mid majors. Many basketball experts and coaches do not consider Gonzaga to be mid-major, other than in conference affiliation. That's the point. No, LaGriz, there is no parity between Gonzaga and the U of M. Sorry, but your regional little brother syndrome is irrelevant. It is your opinion, and has not been justified by anything Montana has done to the detriment of Gonzaga basketball.

The problem is, Gonzaga can not be separated from the "other mid majors" since they are just that... a Mid Major program. Until Gonzaga gets out of a Mid Major conference like the WCC and steps up to play in one of the elite conferences they are just a mid major program...like every other team in the WCC, Big Sky, Colonial, etc etc..

I find it hilarious that you claim other posters here have "little brother syndrome" when that's exactly what you, and many other Zag fans have.. You try to pretend that you are one of the elite schools in the NCAA like many teams from the ACC, SEC and other actual elite conferences...yet you aren't. You are just another mid major program who happens to be near the top of the mid major teams (not at the top though this year).

Here are the top mid major programs so far this year, based on RPI and SOS:

#1. Butler (RPI 17, SOS 87) (Conference RPI Rank #14 tied with WCC)
#2. Northern Iowa (RPI 17, SOS 107) (Conference RPI Rank #9)
#3. Old Dominion (RPI 29, SOS 85) (Conference RPI Rank #12)
#4. Siena (RPI 34, SOS 126) (Conference RPI Rank #15)
#5. Gonzaga (RPI 37, SOS 111) (Conference RPI Rank #14 tied with Horizon)
#6. St. Mary's (RPI 38, SOS 118) (Conference RPI Rank #14 tied with Horizon)

So the zags have a good RPI for a mid-major (not the best though obviously) and a decent SOS for a top mid major team (again, not the best). Yet you seem to want to say that the Zags are not a mid major program and should be considered above the other mid major programs? Just because ESPN has some crush on the Zags and consistently ranks them higher than they deserve, and for some unknown reason they get higher seeds than they deserve doesn't mean the Zags shouldn't be considered mid major anymore. They are projected at a 7 seed this year, somehow better than Old Dominion, Siena and Northern Iowa...

 

[GrizLA]

Is crack smoking back in vogue? Possibly if anyone thinks that the top teams in the Big Sky Conference are comparable overall programs to Gonzaga and St. Marys.

That doesn't mean a UM, UNC or Weber State couldn't beat the Bulldogs or Gaels given the right circumstances. I'll temper this all by saying that Gonzaga and St. Marys are far from being where North Carolina, Kansas, UCLA, UConn or Duke are as programs. I'd love to see Gonzaga reach that level but it's now 10 years+ into their run without a breakthrough final four run. Doubtful they'll reach that level but to bag on what they have done is plain nuts. They continue to compete and can beat just about anyone at any time but it hasn't happened when it counts (i.e. NCAA's) and until it does haters will have ample fuel.

Fan bases of one mid-major conference bashing and dragging down the fan base of another mid-major conference seems counter intuitive to me. Like crabs in a bucket. I love March Madness more than any other sporting event out ther because the small schools truly have a chance to compete on a neutral site against the big boys of collegiate athletics. The best thing that could happen to the Big Sky conference right now would be multiple teams step up and improve their programs. Football, basketball....any sport. The same goes for the WCC. The rest of the sports world may look down their nose at St Marys winning the conference tournament but I think it's one of the best things to happen to WCC basketball - a legitimate competitor in conference.

Good luck tonight, Griz bball team and fans. I hope to catch part of the game on the bigskytv.org.

MTJack

Well put. I agree with mostly everything you have said. Gonzaga needs good competition in the WCC. It helps our RPI and gives us a competitive game later in the season, as opposed to them all being front loaded at the beginning of the season.

I have never said Gonzaga is a UNC, Kansas, or Syracuse. We can regularly compete with those programs, and could beat some of them, but we have not been to a final 4 yet. We have a limited history of success, all of it coming in the last 11 years. My point is to separate Gonzaga from the Big Sky and the rest of the mid majors. Many basketball experts and coaches do not consider Gonzaga to be mid-major, other than in conference affiliation. That's the point. No, LaGriz, there is no parity between Gonzaga and the U of M. Sorry, but your regional little brother syndrome is irrelevant. It is your opinion, and has not been justified by anything Montana has done to the detriment of Gonzaga basketball.

Did you faili English comprehension....in my earlier posts before attacked by someone who apparently takes UM basket ball more seriously than most UM fans, I said, UM was APPROACHING pARITY...yOU seem to have taken that to mean I thought UM was equa to them now...well, that was then and now is now..having wathed Gonzaga lose to LMU, where the Griz had an easy time, and watching St. Mary's blow Gonzaga out, I am inclined to think it is you trying to boost your manhood or something by downplaying one teams
's 20 win season, an improvement over the past 2 years, and the almighty Gonzaga team that is over rated, well coached but not as good as you seem to think it is...So, sweetheart, you missed my point to make your own...next year, we will see how this pans out..especially if Oregon grabs the coach at Gonzaga, as they are expected to do.....you are picking fights when no one really wants to fight with you...go to the football board and call out Alpha...you can fight it out there...birds of a feather...by the way, gonzaga will be one and out in the tourney, also...

 

[ilovethecats]

it's really simple really. there is just as much parity between kansas and gonzaga than there is between gonzaga and montana. my only frustration in this thread is people are acting like the zags are right there with the elite programs despite being in a weaker conference, yet we are crazy to say the same thing about big sky teams and gonzaga. it just sounds egotistical to me.

the elite teams are way better than gonzaga....but gonzaga can beat some of them

gonzaga is way better than teams in the big sky....but the big sky can beat some of those teams.

the big sky is every bit the conference that the wcc is....the wcc is nowhere near the conference that the big east, big 12, acc, sec, etc. are.

plain and simple, if the zags want more respect they need to move to a conference that has teams that will routinely compete with them, they need to make it past the sweet 16, and they can NEVER get beat in the opening round like they have 2 of the last 3 years.

 

[AZGrizFan]

It's interesting to see people bitch about the Griz having no "signature wins". They scheduled (AND BEAT) LMU (twice), Fresno State, Boise State and Oregon (the same Oregon that SWEPT USC AND UCLA this year)and were up by 1 with 30 seconds to play against the then-11th ranked Huskies. That's 5-1 against "non-BSC" teams from major or mid-major conferences.

Then again, they lost games they shouldn't have lost, like just about every other team in America.

It all depends on which team shows up Tuesday & Wednesday.

you would think that team would never get swept by the cats. Am I right?

Is the glass half full or half empty, Hammer? :|

 

[Hammer]

Is the glass half full or half empty, Hammer? :|

It's funny to me that I have become the poster child for the "bad fans" by all these so called "good fans" I would put my loyalty to the University of Montana up against anybody, especially against a guy who lives in Arizona :roll:

Read my post in the "UM or MSU who would you want to be" thread.

I'm as happy as anybody about the win tonight, and hope they throttle the weebs tomorrow night.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it tho.

 

[Grizbacker1]

Is the glass half full or half empty, Hammer? :|

It's funny to me that I have become the poster child for the "bad fans" by all these so called "good fans" I would put my loyalty to the University of Montana up against anybody, especially against a guy who lives in Arizona :roll:

Read my post in the "UM or MSU who would you want to be" thread.

I'm as happy as anybody about the win tonight, and hope they throttle the weebs tomorrow night.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it tho.

you will be humping Tinkles leg if the Griz win the BSC, while eating crow at the same time...not much different than a weekend with alpha I imagine :thumb:

 

[Hammer]

It's funny to me that I have become the poster child for the "bad fans" by all these so called "good fans" I would put my loyalty to the University of Montana up against anybody, especially against a guy who lives in Arizona :roll:

Read my post in the "UM or MSU who would you want to be" thread.

I'm as happy as anybody about the win tonight, and hope they throttle the weebs tomorrow night.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it tho.

you will be humping Tinkles leg if the Griz win the BSC, while eating crow at the same time...not much different than a weekend with alpha I imagine :thumb:

If you knew me very well you would know thats not how I roll. I will give Tinkle credit when it is due, and happy to do so. As for Alpha, I havent talked to him for a couple months and haven't seen him since the App St game. Ask Omega how his weekends with Alpha are.

 

[mtgrizrule]

The condensed version of this thread. Gonzaga Basketball and their conference affiliation pretty much is the same as GRIZ or Boise State football in the eyes of outsiders. (sad thing is I am serious about the comparison)