E-Griz Hypocrisy - Basketball vs Football

[Potomac Griz]

Feel free to speak up and tell us that McKinney and S-H were as a good or better than Bergquist as a frosh.

Um... I do feel free to do that since I just did and provided facts to back up my opinion. Now lets turn this around. Where are your facts and stats to say I'm wrong? If Bergquist was so much better his freshman year than SSH and McKinney why do the stats say otherwise?

As for stats, I often furnish stats, just for background, and often don't make any argument with them. I knew the qb stats before I posted. While I sometimes use stats, I also look beyond stats. Surprised that you seem incapable of doing that. Note that I haven't said your stats are invalid; I just looked beyond them at how the qb's played in those seasons.

You've used stats multiple times to try to prove points. You've also dismissed stats when they don't' fit your argument multiple times (like the UMass attendance issue). Can't have it both ways man. When the stats don't fit your agenda they don't all of a sudden become less meaningful.

JJ's qb rating in 2011 was 133.5 and his completion percentage was 59%. Are you now going to tell us that S-H, who had a better qb rating in '12 than JJ in '11 and completed 65% of his passes, was a better qb than JJ in '11? Speak up. I'd like hear you say that. Also, was McKinney almost as good of a qb as JJ was in '11, as his rating was not too far behind JJ's in '11, and his completion percentage was better?

If you remember (hopefully you do) JJ started out the 2011 season VERY shaky. Remember the 9-19 with 3ints performance in our blowout loss to Sac State? There was quite the QB controversy with a lot of people wanting to see either Kemp or Montana take more snaps since JJ was struggling. Then towards the end of the season it all seemed to click for JJ and the offense and it was a thing of beauty. JJ was also a sophomore, not a freshman like McKinney and Bergquist... so not quite a fair comparison.

Seriously, just go back and look at some box scores. Your memory is very very foggy when it comes to how bad the QB situation was in 2005. It's not surprising though, and I don't mean that as an insult. When something is bad like a QB situation the most recent one is always the "worst in the world" when it comes to memories. Also when a QB starts out absolutely awful, but turns into a fine QB we tend to forget how bad it was initially.

EDIT: Just wanted to add one more thing. I don't mean any of the above as a slam against Bergquist. He turned into a hell of a QB for the Griz, and the struggles he had as a freshman were not anything unexpected. Freshman QBs stepping in and performing at a high level are pretty damn rare. People seem to forget that and are overly harsh about our most recent freshman QB who was thrown into a starting spot because of what happened to JJ.

 

[Eriul]

I'm sorry but it simply is not hypocritical. Maybe find a new word to describe whatever it is that you are trying to say but hypocritical does not apply if the 2 situations are completely different.

The situations are not "completely different". Hiring coaches for the top athletic programs are UM is much more similar than dissimilar.

Why would it be important to doing a national search and look for someone not associated with UM for football, and look within for the men's basketball program at UM?

Ok... Clearly people don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy. A prime example for hypocrisy would be me criticizing people who eat unhealthy if I myself eat unhealthy.

That is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is essentially practicing an act that conflicts with a belief.

Saying our football program should hire outside of the program for whatever reason and that out basketball program shouldn't hire outside of the program is not hypocritical.

I understand the point that is TRYING to be made(which is a bad one) but it doesn't change the fact that the argument is flawed

 

[ordigger]

I'm sorry but it simply is not hypocritical. Maybe find a new word to describe whatever it is that you are trying to say but hypocritical does not apply if the 2 situations are completely different.

The situations are not "completely different". Hiring coaches for the top athletic programs are UM is much more similar than dissimilar.

Why would it be important to doing a national search and look for someone not associated with UM for football, and look within for the men's basketball program at UM?

Ok... Clearly people don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy. A prime example for hypocrisy would be me criticizing people who eat unhealthy if I myself eat unhealthy.

That is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is essentially practicing an act that conflicts with a belief.

Saying our football program should hire outside of the program for whatever reason and that out basketball program shouldn't hire outside of the program is not hypocritical.

I understand the point that is TRYING to be made(which is a bad one) but it doesn't change the fact that the argument is flawed

To narrow of a definition. It could also be argued that hypocrisy is "It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another." That is exactly what we are talking about here. There are people here posting that we should hire within the Griz family for basketball (not pointing fingers at you), yet at the same time are criticizing those individuals that post we should hire within the family for football, preferring to go outside traditional new hires. Our "family coaches tree" in both football and basketball have some similarities, and both programs have been successful.

As someone posted above (in regard to something else - but good example)....you can't have it both ways.

 

[Eriul]

I'm sorry but it simply is not hypocritical. Maybe find a new word to describe whatever it is that you are trying to say but hypocritical does not apply if the 2 situations are completely different.

The situations are not "completely different". Hiring coaches for the top athletic programs are UM is much more similar than dissimilar.

Why would it be important to doing a national search and look for someone not associated with UM for football, and look within for the men's basketball program at UM?

Ok... Clearly people don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy. A prime example for hypocrisy would be me criticizing people who eat unhealthy if I myself eat unhealthy.

That is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is essentially practicing an act that conflicts with a belief.

Saying our football program should hire outside of the program for whatever reason and that out basketball program shouldn't hire outside of the program is not hypocritical.

I understand the point that is TRYING to be made(which is a bad one) but it doesn't change the fact that the argument is flawed

To narrow of a definition. It could also be argued that hypocrisy is "It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another." That is exactly what we are talking about here. There are people here posting that we should hire within the Griz family for basketball (not pointing fingers at you), yet at the same time are criticizing those individuals that post we should hire within the family for football, preferring to go outside traditional new hires. Our "family coaches tree" in both football and basketball have some similarities, and both programs have been successful.

You're referencing 2 beliefs about two subjects. Hypocrisy requires action or a practice that contradicts those beliefs. *sigh*

I understand your point. Hypocrisy is not the right word.

 

[ordigger]

The situations are not "completely different". Hiring coaches for the top athletic programs are UM is much more similar than dissimilar.

Why would it be important to doing a national search and look for someone not associated with UM for football, and look within for the men's basketball program at UM?

Ok... Clearly people don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy. A prime example for hypocrisy would be me criticizing people who eat unhealthy if I myself eat unhealthy.

That is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is essentially practicing an act that conflicts with a belief.

Saying our football program should hire outside of the program for whatever reason and that out basketball program shouldn't hire outside of the program is not hypocritical.

I understand the point that is TRYING to be made(which is a bad one) but it doesn't change the fact that the argument is flawed

To narrow of a definition. It could also be argued that hypocrisy is "It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another." That is exactly what we are talking about here. There are people here posting that we should hire within the Griz family for basketball (not pointing fingers at you), yet at the same time are criticizing those individuals that post we should hire within the family for football, preferring to go outside traditional new hires. Our "family coaches tree" in both football and basketball have some similarities, and both programs have been successful.

You're referencing 2 beliefs about two subjects. Hypocrisy requires action or a practice that contradicts those beliefs. *sigh*

I understand your point. Hypocrisy is not the right word.

Obviously like many words it has different meanings and interpretations depending on its usage. In this scenario it fits perfectly per my example. It is the only word that I can think of that works.

edit: Bill & Ted would think it to be pharisaicalness.

 

[Eriul]

Ok... Clearly people don't understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy. A prime example for hypocrisy would be me criticizing people who eat unhealthy if I myself eat unhealthy.

That is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is essentially practicing an act that conflicts with a belief.

Saying our football program should hire outside of the program for whatever reason and that out basketball program shouldn't hire outside of the program is not hypocritical.

I understand the point that is TRYING to be made(which is a bad one) but it doesn't change the fact that the argument is flawed

To narrow of a definition. It could also be argued that hypocrisy is "It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another." That is exactly what we are talking about here. There are people here posting that we should hire within the Griz family for basketball (not pointing fingers at you), yet at the same time are criticizing those individuals that post we should hire within the family for football, preferring to go outside traditional new hires. Our "family coaches tree" in both football and basketball have some similarities, and both programs have been successful.

You're referencing 2 beliefs about two subjects. Hypocrisy requires action or a practice that contradicts those beliefs. *sigh*

I understand your point. Hypocrisy is not the right word.

Obviously like many words it has different meanings and interpretations depending on its usage. In this scenario it fits perfectly per my example. It is the only word that I can think of that works.

Find me anywhere where it says hypocrisy is believing 2 different things in 2 similar(by your argument which again I couldn't disagree with more) situations.

There probably is a word for that but hypocrisy is NOT even kind of close to what you're arguing.

 

[ordigger]

To narrow of a definition. It could also be argued that hypocrisy is "It is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another." That is exactly what we are talking about here. There are people here posting that we should hire within the Griz family for basketball (not pointing fingers at you), yet at the same time are criticizing those individuals that post we should hire within the family for football, preferring to go outside traditional new hires. Our "family coaches tree" in both football and basketball have some similarities, and both programs have been successful.

You're referencing 2 beliefs about two subjects. Hypocrisy requires action or a practice that contradicts those beliefs. *sigh*

I understand your point. Hypocrisy is not the right word.

Obviously like many words it has different meanings and interpretations depending on its usage. In this scenario it fits perfectly per my example. It is the only word that I can think of that works.

Find me anywhere where it says hypocrisy is believing 2 different things in 2 similar(by your argument which again I couldn't disagree with more) situations.

There probably is a word for that but hypocrisy is NOT even kind of close to what you're arguing.

We are talking one topic here. Not sure where you are getting two.

 

[PlayerRep]

Feel free to speak up and tell us that McKinney and S-H were as a good or better than Bergquist as a frosh.

Um... I do feel free to do that since I just did and provided facts to back up my opinion. Now lets turn this around. Where are your facts and stats to say I'm wrong? If Bergquist was so much better his freshman year than SSH and McKinney why do the stats say otherwise?

As for stats, I often furnish stats, just for background, and often don't make any argument with them. I knew the qb stats before I posted. While I sometimes use stats, I also look beyond stats. Surprised that you seem incapable of doing that. Note that I haven't said your stats are invalid; I just looked beyond them at how the qb's played in those seasons.

You've used stats multiple times to try to prove points. You've also dismissed stats when they don't' fit your argument multiple times (like the UMass attendance issue). Can't have it both ways man. When the stats don't fit your agenda they don't all of a sudden become less meaningful.

JJ's qb rating in 2011 was 133.5 and his completion percentage was 59%. Are you now going to tell us that S-H, who had a better qb rating in '12 than JJ in '11 and completed 65% of his passes, was a better qb than JJ in '11? Speak up. I'd like hear you say that. Also, was McKinney almost as good of a qb as JJ was in '11, as his rating was not too far behind JJ's in '11, and his completion percentage was better?

If you remember (hopefully you do) JJ started out the 2011 season VERY shaky. Remember the 9-19 with 3ints performance in our blowout loss to Sac State? There was quite the QB controversy with a lot of people wanting to see either Kemp or Montana take more snaps since JJ was struggling. Then towards the end of the season it all seemed to click for JJ and the offense and it was a thing of beauty. JJ was also a sophomore, not a freshman like McKinney and Bergquist... so not quite a fair comparison.

Seriously, just go back and look at some box scores. Your memory is very very foggy when it comes to how bad the QB situation was in 2005. It's not surprising though, and I don't mean that as an insult. When something is bad like a QB situation the most recent one is always the "worst in the world" when it comes to memories. Also when a QB starts out absolutely awful, but turns into a fine QB we tend to forget how bad it was initially.

EDIT: Just wanted to add one more thing. I don't mean any of the above as a slam against Bergquist. He turned into a hell of a QB for the Griz, and the struggles he had as a freshman were not anything unexpected. Freshman QBs stepping in and performing at a high level are pretty damn rare. People seem to forget that and are overly harsh about our most recent freshman QB who was thrown into a starting spot because of what happened to JJ.

Your stats on this subject did not prove anything, other than that those stats were not meaningful in this situation, and that you don't know how to evaluate qb play.

The comparison of the stats of JJ to McKinney and S-H show that the stats you cited are sometimes not meaningful. Taking your argument, you think S-H and JJ in '12 were as good a qb as JJ was '11. Obviously wrong. Had nothing to do with whether JJ was a frosh or soph. The stats are the stats.

I'll tell Bergquist and Jeff Larson the next time I see them at the gym, that some posters on egriz thinks McKinney was a better qb than Cole his frosh year. That'll give them a chuckle.

By the way, do you see difference between football stats and attendance numbers?

 

[grizzlyjournal]

Please transfer this to the football formats.

 

[Potomac Griz]

I'll tell Bergquist and Jeff Larson the next time I see them at the gym, that some posters on egriz thinks McKinney was a better qb than Cole his frosh year. That'll give them a chuckle.

Well that's sure to get you an unbiased opinion! :lol:

By the way, do you see difference between football stats and attendance numbers?

Yep I do. I also see the similarities though in that when the facts on attendance, stats, records, etc don't match up with your opinion they all of a sudden become much less meaningful.

 

[Eriul]

You're referencing 2 beliefs about two subjects. Hypocrisy requires action or a practice that contradicts those beliefs. *sigh*

I understand your point. Hypocrisy is not the right word.

Obviously like many words it has different meanings and interpretations depending on its usage. In this scenario it fits perfectly per my example. It is the only word that I can think of that works.

Find me anywhere where it says hypocrisy is believing 2 different things in 2 similar(by your argument which again I couldn't disagree with more) situations.

There probably is a word for that but hypocrisy is NOT even kind of close to what you're arguing.

We are talking one topic here. Not sure where you are getting two.

1. We are talking two topics. Dunno where you are getting one. Basketball program =\ football program.

2. Even if it's 1 topic that's still not hypocrisy.

 

[ordigger]

Obviously like many words it has different meanings and interpretations depending on its usage. In this scenario it fits perfectly per my example. It is the only word that I can think of that works.

Find me anywhere where it says hypocrisy is believing 2 different things in 2 similar(by your argument which again I couldn't disagree with more) situations.

There probably is a word for that but hypocrisy is NOT even kind of close to what you're arguing.

We are talking one topic here. Not sure where you are getting two.

1. We are talking two topics. Dunno where you are getting one. Basketball program =\ football program.

2. Even if it's 1 topic that's still not hypocrisy.

Talking one subject here....if you're talking more than that's your issue. Perhaps you just grab a dictionary and study up on the topic. You're vision is way to narrow. The topic btw, is why people criticize the hiring of "in house" for one sport, but whine & criticize others that do so in another. That is hypocrisy defined.

But then to, perhaps the entire subject is close to you on a personal level.

 

[Eriul]

Find me anywhere where it says hypocrisy is believing 2 different things in 2 similar(by your argument which again I couldn't disagree with more) situations.

There probably is a word for that but hypocrisy is NOT even kind of close to what you're arguing.

We are talking one topic here. Not sure where you are getting two.

1. We are talking two topics. Dunno where you are getting one. Basketball program =\ football program.

2. Even if it's 1 topic that's still not hypocrisy.

Talking one subject here....if you're talking more than that's your issue. Perhaps you just grab a dictionary and study up on the topic. You're vision is way to narrow. The topic btw, is why people criticize the hiring of "in house" for one sport, but whine & criticize others that do so in another. That is hypocrisy defined.

But then to, perhaps the entire subject is close to you on a personal level.

Ok done arguing the definition of a word with someone who doesn't know the difference between you're and your.

I will simply just say you're wrong.

 

[ordigger]

“I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.”
― William F. Buckley Jr.

“And what sort of lives do these people, who pose as being moral, lead themselves? My dear fellow, you forget that we are in the native land of the hypocrite.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray

“Often those that criticise others reveal what he himself lacks.”
― Shannon L. Alder

 

[Eriul]

“I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.”
― William F. Buckley Jr.

“And what sort of lives do these people, who pose as being moral, lead themselves? My dear fellow, you forget that we are in the native land of the hypocrite.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray

“Often those that criticise others reveal what he himself lacks.”
― Shannon L. Alder

So...you post an argument that is flawed.

I post contesting your post with logic and evidence.

You reply with 3 different quotes, which have no relation to your flawed argument, that mildly suggest that if someone criticizes you that the person doing the criticism is flawed...which is actually a sort of paradox...if you know what that means...

I'm sorry you do not know the definition of hypocrisy and wanted to debate the translation of a word based on no argument what-so-ever.

Again.

1. I understand your point fully. I do not agree with it but I understand it.

2. It is NOT hypocrisy, no matter how you try to spin it.

3. Football coaching/recruiting and basketball coaching/recruiting are COMPLETELY different no matter WHERE you are. I can go into WAY more detail but anyone with a brain should understand this. Our football program and basketball program are also in COMPLETELY different situations. One program is coming off one of the worst 3-4 year stretches ever while another has enjoyed quite a bit of success over the past few years.

 

[ordigger]

“I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.”
― William F. Buckley Jr.

“And what sort of lives do these people, who pose as being moral, lead themselves? My dear fellow, you forget that we are in the native land of the hypocrite.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray

“Often those that criticise others reveal what he himself lacks.”
― Shannon L. Alder

So...you post an argument that is flawed.

I post contesting your post with logic and evidence.

You reply with 3 different quotes, which have no relation to your flawed argument, that mildly suggest that if someone criticizes you that the person doing the criticism is flawed...which is actually a sort of paradox...if you know what that means...

I'm sorry you do not know the definition of hypocrisy and wanted to debate the translation of a word based on no argument what-so-ever.

Again.

1. I understand your point fully. I do not agree with it but I understand it.

2. It is NOT hypocrisy, no matter how you try to spin it.

3. Football coaching/recruiting and basketball coaching/recruiting are COMPLETELY different no matter WHERE you are. I can go into WAY more detail but anyone with a brain should understand this. Our football program and basketball program are also in COMPLETELY different situations. One program is coming off one of the worst 3-4 year stretches ever while another has enjoyed quite a bit of success over the past few years.

1. Obviously you don't understand what the word means. I get that.

2. You logic is flawed, better yet you supply no logic or even evidence.

3. You missed the point of the entire post.

4. The only spin I see is you ducking the definition of the word. I even provided a definition verbatim, with an example of that definition.

5. You've posted a couple of times you were going to quit arguing, yet you continue. I sense something here.

6. I guarantee I'm smarter than you.

7. If you can't understand that its one topic IN GENERAL, then truly there is no hope for mankind or you.

8. If you don't understand how those quotes fit here, then truly there is no point for you to continue.

9. The martians are coming.

10. You've said a number of times its not the right word, yet amazingly you've supplied no other word. Why? Because your logic is flawed....oh wait I said that.

Edit:

11. I sense I'm trying to explain logic with a woman which is impossible.

 

[Agent G]

I'm sorry but wth is going on with this thread?!?! Even a gun to my head couldn't force me to read it!! Haha! Maybe it should be moved to the football forum.

 

[Eriul]

“I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.”
― William F. Buckley Jr.

“And what sort of lives do these people, who pose as being moral, lead themselves? My dear fellow, you forget that we are in the native land of the hypocrite.”
― Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray

“Often those that criticise others reveal what he himself lacks.”
― Shannon L. Alder

So...you post an argument that is flawed.

I post contesting your post with logic and evidence.

You reply with 3 different quotes, which have no relation to your flawed argument, that mildly suggest that if someone criticizes you that the person doing the criticism is flawed...which is actually a sort of paradox...if you know what that means...

I'm sorry you do not know the definition of hypocrisy and wanted to debate the translation of a word based on no argument what-so-ever.

Again.

1. I understand your point fully. I do not agree with it but I understand it.

2. It is NOT hypocrisy, no matter how you try to spin it.

3. Football coaching/recruiting and basketball coaching/recruiting are COMPLETELY different no matter WHERE you are. I can go into WAY more detail but anyone with a brain should understand this. Our football program and basketball program are also in COMPLETELY different situations. One program is coming off one of the worst 3-4 year stretches ever while another has enjoyed quite a bit of success over the past few years.

1. Obviously you don't understand what the word means. I get that.

2. You logic is flawed, better yet you supply no logic or even evidence.

3. You missed the point of the entire post.

4. The only spin I see is you ducking the definition of the word. I even provided a definition verbatim, with an example of that definition.

5. You've posted a couple of times you were going to quit arguing, yet you continue. I sense something here.

6. I guarantee I'm smarter than you.

7. If you can't understand that its one topic IN GENERAL, then truly there is no hope for mankind or you.

8. If you don't understand how those quotes fit here, then truly there is no point for you to continue.

9. The martians are coming.

10. You've said a number of times its not the right word, yet amazingly you've supplied no other word. Why? Because your logic is flawed....oh wait I said that.

Edit:

11. I sense I'm trying to explain logic with a woman which is impossible.

1. You're arguing the definition of a word with someone who got a degree in English. This is the webster dictionary definition - the behavior of people who do things that they tell other people not to do : behavior that does not agree with what someone claims to believe or feel.
There is no BEHAVIOR by anyone that contradicts a belief. THAT is logic that you are just choosing to ignore.

2. I provided a better analysis and logic to contradict your point than you have provided to prove yours. You have yet to try and counter the CLEAR point that the two programs are extremely different.

3. I got the point of the entire post. I disagree with you over it.

4. You didn't provide a definition, you provided your misguided belief on what the word meant. I provided a definition, which proved you wrong.

5. Just trying to prove a point to someone who clearly does NOT understand the language that he speaks.

6. I GUARANTEE you are not anywhere close to as smart as me or anywhere close to the IQ level I have.

7. You have two references in your one topic. Your two references split your topic into two because the references are not nearly as related as you suggest.

8. Your quotes are misguided attempts for you to rebuke my argument without using logic. Something that traditionally women do over men but is simply not the case in this argument.

9. I have stated I don't know the right word and that I believe a word DOES exist but Hypocrisy is not the right word. Just because what you are saying does not have a current label doesn't mean you just throw it onto another word claiming that's a clear representation when it strictly refutes the accepted definition of the word. There are many things that currently do not have an English word but are simple concepts. The word "Ihr" in German is the one that comes to mind which is you in plural. The closest version of that in English is "ya'll" which is not really a word.

P.S. ^ That is logic. Not the shit you are spewing.

10. This "woman" has better degrees than you, currently attends a better college than you have ever gone to, and likely has much more knowledge about the subject that is at hand.

 

[Ursa Major]

 

[ordigger]

:clap: :thumb: