Defensive Experts: Can this JMU change be taken advange of?

[ChicagoDuke]

Can’t speak for the coaches. Only speculation but it seems well suited to defend against passing teams. The Big Sky conference is more pass oriented than most. Our LB and DLine guys have still been very effective shutting down the run. Overall they have enjoyed great success this year

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

 

[ChicagoDuke]

That said “You can’t stop the run with a 3-3-5”, so we’re screwed if JMU runs the ball.

I assume this line was said tongue-in-cheek, but no, JMU can't run the ball. That doesn't mean we won't try. If this game is anything like all of the others, we'll spend our first two series running the ball into the backs of our OL, followed by 2 quick punts. Then the OC will pivot to what has worked for us in the past....chucking it downfield to #7 and #8.

 

[Htowngriz]

Can’t speak for the coaches. Only speculation but it seems well suited to defend against passing teams. The Big Sky conference is more pass oriented than most. Our LB and DLine guys have still been very effective shutting down the run. Overall they have enjoyed great success this year

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

I would hope if you throw the ball 80 times you get at least that many yards. In any event, all those yards only translated to 28 points until garbage time when we put our 2s in.

 

[argh!]

Can’t speak for the coaches. Only speculation but it seems well suited to defend against passing teams. The Big Sky conference is more pass oriented than most. Our LB and DLine guys have still been very effective shutting down the run. Overall they have enjoyed great success this year

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

montana was far ahead, and ewu had a huge number of passing yards because 1) the prevent-ish defense 2) 2nd and 3rd team 3) ewu has an amazing offense, that puts up numbers on everybody, and 4) mostly #3, with #1 a ways behind.

 

[kemajic]

Can’t speak for the coaches. Only speculation but it seems well suited to defend against passing teams. The Big Sky conference is more pass oriented than most. Our LB and DLine guys have still been very effective shutting down the run. Overall they have enjoyed great success this year

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

Recognize most of that yardage came after a mid-game Montana 34-7 run. With the big lead we quit attacking and sat in coverage, allowing underneath completions and hard hits on the receivers with little YAC. It minimized mistakes that might have allowed EWU to get back into the game. Which Barriere is always capable of doing. We also rotated players from the 2's and 3's, necessary to defend 81 passes. In the regular season game in Cheney we held him to 10 in the first 3 quarters, his 24 in the fourth beat us.

 

[MsMaroon]

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

montana was far ahead, and ewu had a huge number of passing yards because 1) the prevent-ish defense 2) 2nd and 3rd team 3) ewu has an amazing offense, that puts up numbers on everybody, and 4) mostly #3, with #1 a ways behind.

Not to mention the pesky little fact that there were no, none, zero, zip holding calls in 80 passes.

 

[Harm]

Ms. Maroon nailed it, as did the others talking about prevent and 2's and 3's. Empty calories for the most part. After awhile even the announcers thought it was absurd and were calling out holds like an auctioner assistant recognizing bids... it was both infuriating and hysterical...but mostly infuriating...

 

[SaskGriz]

Asking this question in good faith, so bear with me. Why do y'all run the 3-3-5?

Villanova and Elon coaching staffs are pretty open with why they do it....they can't always recruit enough big bodies to play a 4-man front, so this suits them better. If you can't get the size you need, counter it with speed and deception.

But if the 3-3-5 is so great, why don't we see it at top P5 programs? I know Syracuse is implementing it, but other than that I'm not aware of other P5s running it. (I only lightly googled, so maybe there's a list out there). If the 3-3-5 is so incredible, wouldn't we see teams in the SEC, B1G, ACC, etc. running it? Wouldn't some NFL teams adopt it?

This will be fun.....

It's because Robbie Hauck is the coach's son and he needed a way to get his kid on the field.

 

[SaskGriz]

Against EWU Gubner lined up straight up on the Center almost all the time. The only times I remember him shifting were in 3rd down situations and a couple of those were plays that ended up on false starts. Kaschmitter only spelled him on few plays but interestingly was much more likely to be shaded or even in a 3 tech position. Maybe because he isn't as big as Alex.

Speaking of DT, is Alford out? I saw him get rolled up in an ugly manner near the end of the regular season (can't recall the team) and I don't think I've seen him play since. I have noticed Kaschmitter spells Gubner occasionally, but haven't seen Alford. Appreciate any insight.

Dressed against the Cats and Eagles but I don't think I saw him on the field. I could be wrong.

 

[Copper Griz]

Asking this question in good faith, so bear with me. Why do y'all run the 3-3-5?

Villanova and Elon coaching staffs are pretty open with why they do it....they can't always recruit enough big bodies to play a 4-man front, so this suits them better. If you can't get the size you need, counter it with speed and deception.

But if the 3-3-5 is so great, why don't we see it at top P5 programs? I know Syracuse is implementing it, but other than that I'm not aware of other P5s running it. (I only lightly googled, so maybe there's a list out there). If the 3-3-5 is so incredible, wouldn't we see teams in the SEC, B1G, ACC, etc. running it? Wouldn't some NFL teams adopt it?

First, I have really enjoyed your posts CD. Good luck to JMU on Friday night.
Now, why does U of M run the 3-3-5?
One reason - The head coaches son is a pivotal part of the defense. It appears the 3-3-5 is designed to get him as many tackles as possible throughout the season. Bobby Hauck doesn’t care about winning. He just wants to see his kids name in the paper every week. Selfish. Very selfish.
Now - the real reasons I suspect are
1. As previously stated - BSC conference has a lot of pass heavy teams. The 3-3-5 is a good scheme for most games
2. Hauck and his D Coordinator have recruited speed first. They also played to their strength when he took over as head coach. (Secondary was the Achilles heel the last few years, so wasn’t as effective against the run)
3. See coaching staffs previous experience with the 3-3-5

 

[PhxGriz]

This is the forum where the defensive experts claim a 3-3-5 defense can't stop the run.

Underrated post.

 

[PhxGriz]

That said “You can’t stop the run with a 3-3-5”, so we’re screwed if JMU runs the ball.

I assume this line was said tongue-in-cheek, but no, JMU can't run the ball. That doesn't mean we won't try. If this game is anything like all of the others, we'll spend our first two series running the ball into the backs of our OL, followed by 2 quick punts. Then the OC will pivot to what has worked for us in the past....chucking it downfield to #7 and #8.

It was. Our local board troll, whom has multiple names on this board, stated our main rival (Montana State) was going to brutalize us with the run game due to us running the 3-3-5, and we should scrap it for the game.

Spectacular fail of a prediction. He is constantly telling anyone and everyone they don't understand football. We'll beat that one to death.

 

[kemajic]

Speaking of DT, is Alford out? I saw him get rolled up in an ugly manner near the end of the regular season (can't recall the team) and I don't think I've seen him play since. I have noticed Kaschmitter spells Gubner occasionally, but haven't seen Alford. Appreciate any insight.

Dressed against the Cats and Eagles but I don't think I saw him on the field. I could be wrong.

His last appearance in a game was UNC, 11/6.

 

[PhxGriz]

Dressed against the Cats and Eagles but I don't think I saw him on the field. I could be wrong.

His last appearance in a game was UNC, 11/6.

I saw Alford on special teams for EWU, but yes, any sort of significant play was probably 11/6.

Imagine the special teams effort was simply to test out the injury.

 

[Wolf777]

Asking this question in good faith, so bear with me. Why do y'all run the 3-3-5?

Villanova and Elon coaching staffs are pretty open with why they do it....they can't always recruit enough big bodies to play a 4-man front, so this suits them better. If you can't get the size you need, counter it with speed and deception.

But if the 3-3-5 is so great, why don't we see it at top P5 programs? I know Syracuse is implementing it, but other than that I'm not aware of other P5s running it. (I only lightly googled, so maybe there's a list out there). If the 3-3-5 is so incredible, wouldn't we see teams in the SEC, B1G, ACC, etc. running it? Wouldn't some NFL teams adopt it?

I have only heard a few things from the staff directly, but this is a different animal than Syracuse or any other school in their mind. Few enough teams run it that they have a national conference together occasionally and discuss the defensive scheme openly with each other.

Just as pointed out previously there is advantages in our conference with the offenses we face. However, unlike Elon and Nova, I think (my opinion) Hauck likes it because it gets our best athletes on the field and allows us to strike aggressively from any spot on the field and forces the offense to adjust to us.

It’s not so different from a 3-4 hybrid and at times it takes in gap and coverage responsibilities from the 4-3.

The college game was different on Bobby’s first go round in Missoula and he ran a 4-4 essentially. I think he’s realized the merits of a athletic S/OLB type athletic freak and with our recruiting advantage at this level he is exploiting it the best he can. If you watch the tape from EWU game 1 to EWU game 2 this year you can tell how vital Robertson’s role is for us.

 

[Proud Griz Man]

My pedestrian posting: I believe that the UM coaches and players understand the JMU challenge and are very focused on the task at hand. I have seen enough consistency in the UM defense to believe that they will weather the first-half JMU offensive unit emotional charge, and will settle in for a good performance. The Griz will get pressure on JMU's quarterback Johnson, and will cause some disruption. JMU has strong special teams units, but I still have faith that UM can devise sufficient plans to win the special teams battles in order to make plays and achieve positive field position. My questions mostly relate to the Griz offensive line and Cam's execution. UM can't have turnovers, and give JMU points or short-fields. UM can't have too many 3-and-outs in the first half. Can the Griz avoid giving JMU a sizeable first half lead, that is sufficiently small enough to allow a 3rd quarter comeback that can be sustained and built in the 4th ?

 

[fencer24]

Asking this question in good faith, so bear with me. Why do y'all run the 3-3-5?

Villanova and Elon coaching staffs are pretty open with why they do it....they can't always recruit enough big bodies to play a 4-man front, so this suits them better. If you can't get the size you need, counter it with speed and deception.

But if the 3-3-5 is so great, why don't we see it at top P5 programs? I know Syracuse is implementing it, but other than that I'm not aware of other P5s running it. (I only lightly googled, so maybe there's a list out there). If the 3-3-5 is so incredible, wouldn't we see teams in the SEC, B1G, ACC, etc. running it? Wouldn't some NFL teams adopt it?

Can’t speak for the coaches. Only speculation but it seems well suited to defend against passing teams. The Big Sky conference is more pass oriented than most. Our LB and DLine guys have still been very effective shutting down the run. Overall they have enjoyed great success this year

]That said “You can’t stop the run with a 3-3-5”, so we’re screwed if JMU runs the ball.[/b

It's true, it's true! Someone on EGriz said the very same thing.

 

[Grizfan-24]

The rules that govern the 4-3 and 3-4, especially if you have any sort of fidelity to it, create a whole boat load of issues when teams spread the field out. You run a 3-3 not because you have limitations in recruiting, because it isn't about the service schools desire to run wing-t veer, but rather the defense is a literal open source defense that you can program any way you want.

When schools like the Georgia Military College started running out the 3-3 in the mid 2000's they did it because they had very specific personnel where they could pressure 80% with two or three man pressure and play cover zero behind it. The stuff that Rocky ran at SDSU had different principles closer to the 4-2 that TCU ran with a focus on being vertically and horizontally flexible. Rocky is a defensive savant and understood that you didn't need to recruit unicorn talent to make it work (like GMC and Oregon did) but rather the flexibility and focusing on defensive speed teams couldn't create a formational matchups that had become the weakness of UO and the GMC concept. He had tons of guys at SDSU that were tweener types that might not have had Power 5 tangibles. They were physical and aggressive.

If you look at Montana's defense primarily up the middle and you'll find a lot of those same traits. O'Connell is the classic 3-3 kid. Not big enough to play DE in a classic 40 system, and probably lacks the type of skill set to be a OLB in a 4-3 or 3-4 scheme. This scheme protects him a ton and his stats are largely a product of what the scheme affords him. The same is true with Hauck and Robertson. In a 4-3 or 3-4 they'd get exposed fairly easily but this system allows them to be alley players that a cover 2 system doesn't give them the ability to be nearly as much.

Anyhow, one of the hallmarks of this defense is that they can play a 3-3 stack and cause all sorts of blocking fits because outside of a handful of possessions they aren't in a 3-3 stack. In the second half against Eastern, who had kept Barrierre clean in the first half, they moved from that alignment to an overloaded look that gave the look of a 40 wide scheme and sprung Welnel on successive possessions with some zone blitz looks. They didn't send more personnel, they just had the flexibility in how they brought pressure.

One of the keys to tomorrows game is trying to decipher how JMU is going to handle pressure. If they go to 3 man routes with a TE and RB in for blocking, very similar to what EWU did, I would suspect you'd see vastly more stunting with the DE's trying to move the OL than the standard edge fire pressure that O'Connell is exceedingly good at. My hunch is that this feels like a big game for Welnel, much like the Eastern game.

 

[armonte]

The defense was NOT gassed in 3rd and 4th with having defended 60 plays and then to defend 109 with no let up.
Almost looked like the defense was getting stronger.

It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here; if it stops passing teams why did EWU put up 608 yards, 530 of them through the air. Any way you slice it, 608 yards is a f*ck-ton of yards. I know EB is an elite QB at this level, but a defense designed to stop the pass shouldn't give up 530 passing (5 TD, 1 Int) to any FCS QB.

Recognize most of that yardage came after a mid-game Montana 34-7 run. With the big lead we quit attacking and sat in coverage, allowing underneath completions and hard hits on the receivers with little YAC. It minimized mistakes that might have allowed EWU to get back into the game. Which Barriere is always capable of doing. We also rotated players from the 2's and 3's, necessary to defend 81 passes. In the regular season game in Cheney we held him to 10 in the first 3 quarters, his 24 in the fourth beat us.