Defensive adjustments

[Hoops Translator]

That's cause you never played the game. In a passing game, db's who cover well or who don't get thrown at, tend to have fewer tackles. They don't have to make tackles after their man catches the ball. Against a more balanced offense, then it's not a useful stat for pass defense success, as tackles should be made in the rush game.

As for your last para, please explain further. Are you saying the secondary is not talented? Are you saying the linebackers are not talented? Are you saying the d-line is not talented? I get the defensive scheme part of the comment.

#hoops translator - can we get some help here?

Translation: You didn’t play football, you can’t possibly understand that DB’s can’t tackle people who don’t get the ball. Also, for some God forsaken reason, they don’t have to tackle people after they catch the ball? * I can’t be wrong if I contradict myself.*

Your second paragraph has words I can’t comprehend. How dare you question the Griz God? Don’t you understand that Bobby and I conceived this program from the depths of the Berkeley Pit? Yet, I agree with you at the same time because I can’t be wrong.

 

[Hoops Translator]

From watching them and knowing their skills. And talking to the coaches and several of the players. Note that they held ISU to almost its lowest passing numbers in yardage, average per page, and average per completion. Their man coverage is usually good. And the number of picks. As a group, they have good hands. They have made too many mistakes in some prior games.

@hoops translator - can we get this into plain english?

Translation: Duh…I watched and duh…I saw some things and duh…those things made me think some things and duh…thinking those things made me dream of some things and duh…that made me decide to puke those things onto my keyboard. I saw some numbers and duh…. those numbers weren’t high or low numbers but I mixed them into the things that I dreamed and duh… they made some sense to me. If you don’t understand, it’s because you never played football and you’re a bad poster. Loser.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Uh, you and I agree here, counselor. If they were covering well they’d have fewer tackles. I said literally the exact same thing.

And my last paragraph is a statement on the overall effectiveness of the scheme. When the scheme is predicated on defensive pressure on the QB (sacks, QB hurries, etc) and said pressure fails to materialize consistently (or EVER, as is this year’s case) the DB’s have to cover longer and are more apt to fail, resulting in fewer passes defensed, fewer pass breakups, higher completion percentages, more passing yards given up, and more tackles by the safeties and DB’s, etc, etc.

You also talked about talent level. You or someone questioned Cotton too. He is a very good player.

Said nothing about Cotton. What I said about talent level was that I don’t’ judge someone’s talent or whether they had a great game by how many tackles they had.

 

[ilovethecats]

@hoops translator - can we get this into plain english?

Translation: Duh…I watched and duh…I saw some things and duh…those things made me think some things and duh…thinking those things made me dream of some things and duh…that made me decide to puke those things onto my keyboard. I saw some numbers and duh…. those numbers weren’t high or low numbers but I mixed them into the things that I dreamed and duh… they made some sense to me. If you don’t understand, it’s because you never played football and you’re a bad poster. Loser.

This may be my favorite thing on this board for years. :clap:

 

[mthoopsfan]

You also talked about talent level. You or someone questioned Cotton too. He is a very good player.

Said nothing about Cotton. What I said about talent level was that I don’t’ judge someone’s talent or whether they had a great game by how many tackles they had.

Because tackling isn’t important?

 

[garizzalies]

Great subject, unfortunately nobody going out on a limb to give possible solutions, or even improvements.
Let's come up with suggestions for the GRIZ defense.

I'll start with a few suggestions, changes, etc.

Get away from our base defense based on situations, match-ups, oppositions strengths and weaknesses.
Regardless of the defense type, playing the same base defense over and over, makes it easier for good offensive coaches and qbs to prep for. Opposing coaches know our tendencies, being we don't get away from our base defense.

Power running teams know, we don't have the size to control a running game for a full game. Common damn sense, 5 defensive backs are less effective against power running teams, than any front 7 of lbs and dls.

Wide open passing offenses know to run quick routes, with an occasional deep play. They know, most lbs are at a disadvantage in coverage, verses against more dbs.

Against ISUs passing offense, I would have gone dime a lot especially in obvious passing.downs and situations.

Against the likes of NDSU, MSU, SDSU, etc my defense is going with only 4 dbs a lot. I'm going with bigger front 7 packages.

In a nutshell, let my defensive personnel match-up better with opposing offenses.

Honestly, how difficult are those personnel and defensive packages to implement? Instead, we choose to not make adjustments and let opposing offenses have an advantage.

I could expand further. I think, you all get the point.
Feel free to add to this. What can we come up with?

I think the dastardly handsome OP was talking about the defensive adjustments that were actually implemented between the NAU and ISU games, and not theoretical ones which altho very savvy, I don’t think BH will change at this point.

 

[garizzalies]

Uh, you and I agree here, counselor. If they were covering well they’d have fewer tackles. I said literally the exact same thing.

And my last paragraph is a statement on the overall effectiveness of the scheme. When the scheme is predicated on defensive pressure on the QB (sacks, QB hurries, etc) and said pressure fails to materialize consistently (or EVER, as is this year’s case) the DB’s have to cover longer and are more apt to fail, resulting in fewer passes defensed, fewer pass breakups, higher completion percentages, more passing yards given up, and more tackles by the safeties and DB’s, etc, etc.

You also talked about talent level. You or someone questioned Cotton too. He is a very good player.

The abjectly pedestrian OP was not trying to question Cotton’s talent. He’s one of the best defenders out there.

Just asking questions about the safeties and wondering about these D adjustments. Seems like one set of safeties are favored vs the run, and another set for the pass. Only a theory, could be way off

 

[AZGrizFan]

Said nothing about Cotton. What I said about talent level was that I don’t’ judge someone’s talent or whether they had a great game by how many tackles they had.

Because tackling isn’t important?

Because in a passing game DB’s who cover well or who don’t get thrown at tend to have fewer tackles. They don’t have to make tackles after their man catches the ball. Against a more balanced offense, then it’s not a useful stat for pass defense success, as tackles should be made in the rush game or after their opponent has already caught the ball.

Come on counselor, this isn’t rocket science.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Because tackling isn’t important?

Because in a passing game DB’s who cover well or who don’t get thrown at tend to have fewer tackles. They don’t have to make tackles after their man catches the ball. Against a more balanced offense, then it’s not a useful stat for pass defense success, as tackles should be made in the rush game or after their opponent has already caught the ball.

Come on counselor, this isn’t rocket science.

That's what I said in my first post on the subject. But I haven't understood most of what you have been saying in the last several posts. I'm not disagreeing with you; just trying to figure out what you said.

Garizzlies: "But I also, can’t seem to remember seeing Cotton make a play for some reason."

Hoops: "Cotton didn't have to make tackles or plays because his coverage was good, and ISU didn't run much."

 

[mthoopsfan]

The Griz aren’t bad in any respect. Only people not paying attention, trolls, and those who never played the game would say that. Of course, not great or dominate either. Not as good as last year. Trying to find their way and improve. Trying to win each game. I like Vidlak, but I think McDowell is going to step up. The coaches are very good.

That’s all fine PR. You could be right. I’ve been around long enough where you know I don’t get into that troll poop. I just don’t see a metric in which you’d look at the numbers and say that you have a good pass D. That can obviously change.

Through a bet your way if you wanna look it over. I’m the we did not quit thread….

Well, leading the nation in interceptions is a metric. Holding ISU to most of its lowest passing numbers for the season. I haven't looked for any more. Just knew those already.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

That’s all fine PR. You could be right. I’ve been around long enough where you know I don’t get into that troll poop. I just don’t see a metric in which you’d look at the numbers and say that you have a good pass D. That can obviously change.

Through a bet your way if you wanna look it over. I’m the we did not quit thread….

Well, leading the nation in interceptions is a metric. Holding ISU to most of its lowest passing numbers for the season. I haven't looked for any more. Just knew those already.

Not to mention ISU had only 47 yards rushing on 13 attempts, 5 of those by Cooke, and chose to feature the passing attack on 47 plays. More if you count the scrambles that were pass plays but didn't result in a sack. 8 non QB rushes for 24 yards, 3.0 average. Griz D did well.

Speaking of Cooke, he has an incredibly fast release. He was pressured well and often threw the ball up in the direction of a receiver rather than take a sack. Some completions but threw some to our defenders.

 

[GrizRealist]

That’s all fine PR. You could be right. I’ve been around long enough where you know I don’t get into that troll poop. I just don’t see a metric in which you’d look at the numbers and say that you have a good pass D. That can obviously change.

Through a bet your way if you wanna look it over. I’m the we did not quit thread….

Well, leading the nation in interceptions is a metric. Holding ISU to most of its lowest passing numbers for the season. I haven't looked for any more. Just knew those already.

Its a metric that, without context, does not have significant value at least as it pertains to this conversation. Kind of important to understand how that stat came to be instead of just seeing the high number and assuming it means they did a good job. This is similar to how the number of tackles a DB makes is misleading. A high number of tackles for a DB could mean very different things in different scenarios, and the the scenario exists where a high number is not good.

 

[uofmman1122]

Well, leading the nation in interceptions is a metric. Holding ISU to most of its lowest passing numbers for the season. I haven't looked for any more. Just knew those already.

Its a metric that, without context, does not have significant value at least as it pertains to this conversation. Kind of important to understand how that stat came to be instead of just seeing the high number and assuming it means they did a good job. This is similar to how the number of tackles a DB makes is misleading. A high number of tackles for a DB could mean very different things in different scenarios, and the the scenario exists where a high number is not good.

We're currently 12th in FCS in INTs per pass attempt, which controls for the number of passes thrown at a defense. That seems pretty good.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Well, leading the nation in interceptions is a metric. Holding ISU to most of its lowest passing numbers for the season. I haven't looked for any more. Just knew those already.

Its a metric that, without context, does not have significant value at least as it pertains to this conversation. Kind of important to understand how that stat came to be instead of just seeing the high number and assuming it means they did a good job. This is similar to how the number of tackles a DB makes is misleading. A high number of tackles for a DB could mean very different things in different scenarios, and the the scenario exists where a high number is not good.

You don't think leading the nation in interception has anything to do with discussion of Griz pass D? Or, holding ISU to virtually its lowest passing numbers of the season. Obviously, you never played defensive back.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Its a metric that, without context, does not have significant value at least as it pertains to this conversation. Kind of important to understand how that stat came to be instead of just seeing the high number and assuming it means they did a good job. This is similar to how the number of tackles a DB makes is misleading. A high number of tackles for a DB could mean very different things in different scenarios, and the the scenario exists where a high number is not good.

You don't think leading the nation in interception has anything to do with discussion of Griz pass D? Or, holding ISU to virtually its lowest passing numbers of the season. Obviously, you never played defensive back.

And teams that pass more are generally teams with better passing games and better QB's. So an interception means more in that regard, generally.

 

[argh!]

You don't think leading the nation in interception has anything to do with discussion of Griz pass D? Or, holding ISU to virtually its lowest passing numbers of the season. Obviously, you never played defensive back.

And teams that pass more are generally teams with better passing games and better QB's. So an interception means more in that regard, generally.

in a vey esoteric way...

 

[#15 Fan]

Hoops Translator is slowly starting to become one of my favorite posters, sorry CDA.....unless........................

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

By what metric PR?

Genuinely asking.

From watching them and knowing their skills. And talking to the coaches and several of the players. Note that they held ISU to almost its lowest passing numbers in yardage, average per page, and average per completion. Their man coverage is usually good. And the number of picks. As a group, they have good hands. They have made too many mistakes in some prior games.

We haven’t played one team Worth a shit yet and everyone knows it. If we’re comparing our secondary to games against NAU and Idaho State and saying “that’s good” then we’re truly Fd as a program.

 

[BadlandsGrizFan]

My concern is t with kids from Montana or where they’re from. Just basic geography would tell you where your best chances of getting kids to play college football and even more specifically where you are best to find certain positions.

It’s great you were able to list 5 really great Montana secondary players over a span on 4 decades.

The facts are you are less likely to find a kid in Montana and let alone multiple of them that can defend or match up athletically with all of these college wide receivers today. And this year it is abundantly clear. They look small compared to the guys they’re covering. The look out matched and out muscled. Btw. I’m a guy from rural Montana.

Our secondary is an issue. And yes not getting pressure on the QB is a major concern. They’re both major issues. We don’t currently have the dogs on the DLine outside of Gubner that we are used to having either. And oh btw that is an area where we find multiple Montana kids that excel at that position.

So with 3 of our 5 starting DBs being from out of state and only 2 of which being under 6 foot, is it fair to say your comments regarding our secondary being 5’9 and from chinook is completely false and total bullshit?

Listing some of DBs that are both from Montana and 6 foot or under 6 foot is certainly proof that’s its worth recruiting guys from Montana at those positions. Would you rather we not recruit those guys? Would we be better off without Graves, Gradney, Meyer, Klucewich, and Lee?

If our secondary is so bad, how do they lead the nation in interceptions? Seems that stat alone would be worthy of some notoriety.

Sure you could say I was being facetious with the 5”9 comments but they’re not far off. This secondary for the most part does not pass the “eye test”. They look like they should be playing against Dickinson State. Not Idaho State.

No I don’t think the program should quit looking at kids from Montana to play secondary positions if they do have talent like Tuff and Tim and Anderson. But the kids we have now aren’t any of those guys.

This secondary has looked shaky against completely bad programs. So sorry for not being optimistic.

 

[indiancoyote]

Its a metric that, without context, does not have significant value at least as it pertains to this conversation. Kind of important to understand how that stat came to be instead of just seeing the high number and assuming it means they did a good job. This is similar to how the number of tackles a DB makes is misleading. A high number of tackles for a DB could mean very different things in different scenarios, and the the scenario exists where a high number is not good.

You don't think leading the nation in interception has anything to do with discussion of Griz pass D? Or, holding ISU to virtually its lowest passing numbers of the season. Obviously, you never played defensive back.

Ya—that’s why Bosa makes roughly $15 million more than any DB in the league. I’m always amazed that you can say stuff that makes you look dumber every time you say something..