Defense...what happened

[Blgs Griz Fan]

Not long ago the Griz defense ruled under DC Bradford. So what happened and how do we get it back?

 

[billingsgriz]

Play 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 against run-heavy teams like MSU recruit through high school, portal or both so that we have 3 more 280-300 lb DT 's like Gubner, Ramos, Bailey giving us a total of at least 5 big, strong, mobile run-stuffing DT's .

 

[NorthernCat]

It's insane to run the scheme you guys run if you don't just absolutely sell out, throw the bag, whatever you want to say, at a DT that doesn't just get washed 3 yards off the ball against any decent o line. You literally can't stop the run playing that scheme without a gubner type. Without that and 2 shutdown corners it's just a gimmick, designed to beat up bad teams in your home stadium.

 

[catgrizfan]

Play 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 against run-heavy teams like MSU recruit through high school, portal or both so that we have 3 more 280-300 lb DT 's like Gubner, Ramos, Bailey giving us a total of at least 5 big, strong, mobile run-stuffing DT's .

This is the recipe. Need guys to take double teams to free up the LBs. Guys like 41 for blowsman. Not flashy, but block eaters.

 

[billingsgriz]

It's insane to run the scheme you guys run if you don't just absolutely sell out, throw the bag, whatever you want to say, at a DT that doesn't just get washed 3 yards off the ball against any decent o line. You literally can't stop the run playing that scheme without a gubner type. Without that and 2 shutdown corners it's just a gimmick, designed to beat up bad teams in your home stadium.

Thus the need to go back to a 4-3-4 or a 4-2-5 with 2 280-300 lb DT's playing in the middle. When we beat MSU 16 years in a row and won our two NC's, we played a 4-3-4.

It's not rocket science--we develop these DT's from high school, like Gubner and Ramos, or recruit them from the portal, like Bailey, or more likely, both.

 

[NorthernCat]

Thus the need to go back to a 4-3-4 or a 4-2-5 with 2 280-300 lb DT's playing in the middle. When we beat MSU 16 years in a row and won our two NC's, we played a 4-3-4.

It's not rocket science--we develop these DT's from high school, like Gubner and Ramos, or recruit them from the portal, like Bailey, or more likely, both.

I mean... you can play the 3-3-5 but you have to recruit to it. The hybridized lb/edge types are fine but not when you just get destroyed in the A and B gaps. It's bizarre they think it can work like this.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

I mean... you can play the 3-3-5 but you have to recruit to it. The hybridized lb/edge types are fine but not when you just get destroyed in the A and B gaps. It's bizarre they think it can work like this.

The only way it works is to confuse and overwhelm the o line. The scheme works on pass first teams but not run first ones that can just go straight ahead. Without a generational talent on the nose, it gets blown off the ball all the time. I’d love to see it used situationally, but its wildly inconsistent as a base defense. You practically need all Americans at db and on the line to make it work reasonably.

 

[GriznMN]

The only way it works is to confuse and overwhelm the o line. The scheme works on pass first teams but not run first ones that can just go straight ahead. Without a generational talent on the nose, it gets blown off the ball all the time. I’d love to see it used situationally, but its wildly inconsistent as a base defense. You practically need all Americans at db and on the line to make it work reasonably.

Yet it worked against South Dakota State and South Dakota, two MVFC teams that are built in the same model as the Cats. The South Dakota line had bigger offensive linemen than the Cats line. What was the difference?

 

[horribilisfan8184]

I prefer the 4-3 for all the run reasons. But let's not act like this defense didn't handle the run games of two of the Dakotas finest. And in this game the defense stunted out of the way of too many play calls. Should have played more straight up D. I would have had the Yale DC on speed dial.

The flaw here is in the numbers. In a 3 front, even if the nose is doubled there are still 3 OL for the remaining 2 DL giving a free man to the LB at the point of attack. If no double is used it's 2 OL free. If these O line men are crossing they can close of two LBs with one block. Our LBs were trapped this way on most long runs. The Cats OL are well coached, and our stunting made their jobs easier.

 

[billingsgriz]

I mean... you can play the 3-3-5 but you have to recruit to it. The hybridized lb/edge types are fine but not when you just get destroyed in the A and B gaps. It's bizarre they think it can work like this.

Like I said under Brint Wahlberg's post " Not good enough," I'm only an armchair QB, but I am blessed to have rwo friends that played WR--one at Eastern and the other @ NAIA Dickenson State in ND, where he also was for a period of time also their WR coach. Both now live in Billings.

Separately--they don't know each other--they told me the 3-3-5 was developed to stop the Air Raid offense of local football hero ( Cody, Wyo.) the late-great Mike Leach who a few years before he died while helming Miss. State in The SEC attended his 40th high-school reunion in Cody and, according to my boss who lives in Cody, which is less than 100 miles south of Billings, , got his old high-school friends and himself into " good trouble," and the very similar Air-Bear Offense of GRIZ great and Coach Hauck's mentor the legendary Don Read.

The 5 DB's play man-to-man, zone or both while also being used along with the LB's to blitz the opposing QB and help the 3 linemen who are outmanned and outgunned by the opposing OL.

Both of them--again separately--also told me for what the 3-3-5 was not intended: to stop a run-first, run-heavy offense. For a run-happy offense, according to them, a team needs to run the 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 with two big, strong, and mobile DT's of 280-300 lbs. at The Big Sky and FBS level. One of them pointed out how TCU, running the 3-3-5, was run over and crushed by Georgia in the FBS national championship 5-6 years ago.

They both told me that a team could switch during the game even during a series from a 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 to a 3-3-5 just as long as the players knew their different assignments in the different defenses.

I strongly believe that when we play MSU next year, we need to be playing a 4-3-4 or a 4-2-5 for probably most of the game, switching only to a 3-3-5 in an obvious passing situation.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

Yet it worked against South Dakota State and South Dakota, two MVFC teams that are built in the same model as the Cats. The South Dakota line had bigger offensive linemen than the Cats line. What was the difference?

It’s not just size, it’s skill. SD and SDSU had problematic line play and seemed genuinely confused. They also typically don’t play this every year. The cats do. They also have fantastic line play.

 

[Wolf777]

I prefer the 4-3 for all the run reasons. But let's not act like this defense didn't handle the run games of two of the Dakotas finest. And in this game the defense stunted out of the way of too many play calls. Should have played more straight up D. I would have had the Yale DC on speed dial.

The flaw here is in the numbers. In a 3 front, even if the nose is doubled there are still 3 OL for the remaining 2 DL giving a free man to the LB at the point of attack. If no double is used it's 2 OL free. If these O line men are crossing they can close of two LBs with one block. Our LBs were trapped this way on most long runs. The Cats OL are well coached, and our stunting made their jobs easier.

There are some inherent weaknesses that become glaring holes when personnel isn’t adequate or available. The biggest upside to the 3-3-5 is flexibility, but it’s very apparent that the current rules for defensive substitution requirements allow any defense to adjust appropriately to offensive packages. The 4-3 can be run very similar on the backend with nickel and dime packages and be more stout on early downs without sacrificing anything now. It’s easier to pick up and allows guys to use their god given talents. Guys like Kroy and Simms and others come to mind and thrives in the past. They wrecked games without having to do exotic blitzes.

 

[Ursus1]

It’s not just size, it’s skill. SD and SDSU had problematic line play and seemed genuinely confused. They also typically don’t play this every year. The cats do. They also have fantastic line play.

exactly similar to teams that face triple option teams...see it once and awhile you get killed, play against it year in and year out you have the experience and knowledge of how to combat it. MSU has had to face it every year and have the pieces and knowledge to play against it. They did ok first time this year and second time even better with more experience and not having 27000 telling while they called out online plays

 

[GriznMN]

Like I said under Brint Wahlberg's post " Not good enough," I'm only an armchair QB, but I am blessed to have rwo friends that played WR--one at Eastern and the other @ NAIA Dickenson State in ND, where he also was for a period of time also their WR coach. Both now live in Billings.

Separately--they don't know each other--they told me the 3-3-5 was developed to stop the Air Raid offense of local football hero ( Cody, Wyo.) the late-great Mike Leach who a few years before he died while helming Miss. State in The SEC attended his 40th high-school reunion in Cody and, according to my boss who lives in Cody, which is less than 100 miles south of Billings, , got his old high-school friends and himself into " good trouble," and the very similar Air-Bear Offense of GRIZ great and Coach Hauck's mentor the legendary Don Read.

The 5 DB's play man-to-man, zone or both while also being used along with the LB's to blitz the opposing QB and help the 3 linemen who are outmanned and outgunned by the opposing OL.

Both of them--again separately--also told me for what the 3-3-5 was not intended: to stop a run-first, run-heavy offense. For a run-happy offense, according to them, a team needs to run the 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 with two big, strong, and mobile DT's of 280-300 lbs. at The Big Sky and FBS level. One of them pointed out how TCU, running the 3-3-5, was run over and crushed by Georgia in the FBS national championship 5-6 years ago.

They both told me that a team could switch during the game even during a series from a 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 to a 3-3-5 just as long as the players knew their different assignments in the different defenses.

I strongly believe that when we play MSU next year, we need to be playing a 4-3-4 or a 4-2-5 for probably most of the game, switching only to a 3-3-5 in an obvious passing situation.

And when you say playing a 4-3-4 or 4-2-5, I take it you mean a true 4-2-5 or 4-3-4 with all four DL with their hands in the dirt and not the hybrid 4 with one LB in a two point stance, correct?

 

[Vamos Gatos Vamos]

It's insane to run the scheme you guys run if you don't just absolutely sell out, throw the bag, whatever you want to say, at a DT that doesn't just get washed 3 yards off the ball against any decent o line. You literally can't stop the run playing that scheme without a gubner type. Without that and 2 shutdown corners it's just a gimmick, designed to beat up bad teams in your home stadium.

How many top 20 FBS coaches run the 3-3-5 as their base defense? "It requires highly versatile defensive backs and linebackers, which can be hard to find consistently at the elite level. " UM's results show it's killer against sub par offenses which lulls Griz fans into thinking this is the year. But it's exposed against bigger, stronger, gap sound offenses. If you want to win a natty, start with the lines and the D scheme. You have to be willing to give up what you have to move forward. You don't have to tear it down, just a heavy remodel project.

 

[billingsgriz]

And when you say playing a 4-3-4 or 4-2-5, I take it you mean a true 4-2-5 or 4-3-4 with all four DL with their hands in the dirt and not the hybrid 4 with one LB in a two point stance, correct?

Strongly agree, Minn., even Osweiler on TV was confused, calling our DE's ' small DT's weighing 250 pounds ( Detrick is listed @ 240.) probably because our DE's frequently have both hands in the dirt as we bring Solo, for example, standing up to rush the passer.

I think we need to play a true 4-3-4 or 4-2-5 with two true DT's, 280-300 lbs, side by side, not a 6-3 or 6-4, 240-250 lb. DE, trying to play as a defacto DT--as we saw twice against MSU and as TCU saw in the 2023 FBS National Championship trying to play the 3-3-5 against a big strong 300 lb. + Georgia O line, the 3-3-5 doesn't work against a big, strong, mobile O line. ( Georgia 65, TCU 7 ).

I am not aware of any national championship team in the FCS or FBS that used the 3-3-5 or any NFL Super Bowl Champion, either.

Something else I think the 3-3-5 does anecdotally: beats the hell out of our DB's. Our DB's are fast, athletic and hard hitting, and they're also about the smallest players on the field at typically 5-10 to 6-1, weighing 170-200 pounds that have to often tackle RB's, WR's and TE's that outweigh them by 10-50 pounds ( TE's), and that takes a toll. Loud, Gentry, Beaner, and Micah all were hurt at times during the season or their season ended due to injury.

 

[SinCityGriz2005]

Not long ago the Griz defense ruled under DC Bradford. So what happened and how do we get it back?

You drop the 3-3-5, recruit more athletic, much larger DL insert a nickel package and play defense the way the rest of the college football world is. UM would have been in that game with a real defense.

 

[brewskis]

Not long ago the Griz defense ruled under DC Bradford. So what happened and how do we get it back?

2023 was the only year this scheme was effective against the top of the FCS. And that’s because we had elite talent at every position group, including two unicorns in Justin ford and Gubner. I also maintain the belief that Bradford was the best coach we’ve had on staff, since possibly ever.

You pair that with Bergen going on an absolute tear through the postseason and we had a dangerous team.

The stars aligned for us that year. Which is what Bobby requires it seems.

 

[HikeGlacier]

You drop the 3-3-5, recruit more athletic, much larger DL insert a nickel package and play defense the way the rest of the college football world is. UM would have been in that game with a real defense.

We were in the game with that defense. The greatest scheme in the world cannot overcome poor coaching decisions. Not coming after Lampson on 3 and 20 is inexcusable.

 

[Wolf777]

2023 was the only year this scheme was effective against the top of the FCS. And that’s because we had elite talent at every position group, including two unicorns in Justin ford and Gubner. I also maintain the belief that Bradford was the best coach we’ve had on staff, since possibly ever.

You pair that with Bergen going on an absolute tear through the postseason and we had a dangerous team.

The stars aligned for us that year. Which is what Bobby requires it seems.

I keep seeing this. Ford played for that 2023 team??????