Collecting a check

[PlayerRep]

I said Pflu and Mr. O'day will be collecting checks for a long time - right on track!

Well, in essence, they're still employees of the University of Montana, correct? Still getting paid. Their only requirement is not to deal with the sports or football programs until their contracts, which have an ending date, finally expire. Correct? They're contract laborers... I don't think they're guarenteed a job for life. I think they'll collect a check until their contracts end, then look for a job like the rest of us. :roll:

No, they aren't still employees of UM. That's really funny that you would say that. From recollection, the provision used to fire them says that they can be terminated without cause. They are in effect guaranteed a job for the term of the contract, unless terminated for cause. While they can still be terminated without cause, they now have a wrongful termination claim (if they want to bring it). For the empteenth time, if the contract wasn't being renewed, they would still be the AD and coach until the end of the contract.

 

[mcg]

I said Pflu and Mr. O'day will be collecting checks for a long time - right on track!

Well, in essence, they're still employees of the University of Montana, correct? Still getting paid. Their only requirement is not to deal with the sports or football programs until their contracts, which have an ending date, finally expire. Correct? They're contract laborers... I don't think they're guarenteed a job for life. I think they'll collect a check until their contracts end, then look for a job like the rest of us. :roll:

No, they aren't still employees of UM. That's really funny that you would say that. From recollection, the provision used to fire them says that they can be terminated without cause. They are in effect guaranteed a job for the term of the contract, unless terminated for cause. While they can still be terminated without cause, they now have a wrongful termination claim (if they want to bring it). For the empteenth time, if the contract wasn't being renewed, they would still be the AD and coach until the end of the contract.

I understand it differently. If I recall correctly the UM press release said that the University chose not to renew their contracts. The implication is that they remain under contract until the contract expires. If this is true, they would still be paid until contract end date. I don't recall the word 'termination' in the press release (which I'm too lazy to look up, but it's late).

I believe that the U does not want to terminate them, as termination might lead to messy legal issues and questions.

 

[PlayerRep]

I said Pflu and Mr. O'day will be collecting checks for a long time - right on track!

Well, in essence, they're still employees of the University of Montana, correct? Still getting paid. Their only requirement is not to deal with the sports or football programs until their contracts, which have an ending date, finally expire. Correct? They're contract laborers... I don't think they're guarenteed a job for life. I think they'll collect a check until their contracts end, then look for a job like the rest of us. :roll:

No, they aren't still employees of UM. That's really funny that you would say that. From recollection, the provision used to fire them says that they can be terminated without cause. They are in effect guaranteed a job for the term of the contract, unless terminated for cause. While they can still be terminated without cause, they now have a wrongful termination claim (if they want to bring it). For the empteenth time, if the contract wasn't being renewed, they would still be the AD and coach until the end of the contract.

I understand it differently. If I recall correctly the UM press release said that the University chose not to renew their contracts. The implication is that they remain under contract until the contract expires. If this is true, they would still be paid until contract end date. I don't recall the word 'termination' in the press release (which I'm too lazy to look up, but it's late).

I believe that the U does not want to terminate them, as termination might lead to messy legal issues and questions.

These quotes are from the Missoulian article I will link in the next post. Note the words "termination" and "termination" below (caps added).

"That’s because UM President Royce Engstrom didn’t give O’Day proper notice before deciding to TERMINATE his contract."

"Therefore, according to Montana Board of Regents policy, he’s entitled to another year of his base annual salary plus benefits, said Kevin McRae, associate commissioner for human resources.

About 1,000 university employees are under similar contracts, McRae said. The university is handling O’Day’s TERMINATION the same as it would anyone else. This is not the first time the university has had to pay an employee an additional year’s salary for not providing sufficient notice, he said."

 

[PlayerRep]

O'Day will be paid through June 30, 2013, or 14.5 more months, according to this Missoulian article.

Did Engstrom not realize this when he terminated O'Day?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/former-um-athletic-director-to-get-extra-year-of-pay/article_53873922-88ef-11e1-9e7f-0019bb2963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Grizmayor]

Thanks guys (or gals). I read the article the same way... that our coach and A.D. were "not having their contracts renewed", which is a standard operating procedure in the entire world, I think? Or in other words... Go Home and collect a check, we don't want your services anymore, but legally we have to pay you. Sorry, but I can't find anything there to sue the University over. The guys signed a contract that has an ending date. As long as they are paid the amount of that contract, they have no recourse. (I've had some pretty damn sharp attornies here with labor and union law... I'm thinking I'm pretty close to the facts here). Like I've said before, Cousin Cliff and Uncle Milty don't want me on the jury.

 

[mcg]

O'Day will be paid through June 30, 2013, or 14.5 more months, according to this Missoulian article.

Did Engstrom not realize this when he terminated O'Day?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/former-um-athletic-director-to-get-extra-year-of-pay/article_53873922-88ef-11e1-9e7f-0019bb2963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

 

[PlayerRep]

O'Day will be paid through June 30, 2013, or 14.5 more months, according to this Missoulian article.

Did Engstrom not realize this when he terminated O'Day?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/former-um-athletic-director-to-get-extra-year-of-pay/article_53873922-88ef-11e1-9e7f-0019bb2963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

 

[ranco]

Thanks guys (or gals). I read the article the same way... that our coach and A.D. were "not having their contracts renewed", which is a standard operating procedure in the entire world, I think? Or in other words... Go Home and collect a check, we don't want your services anymore, but legally we have to pay you. Sorry, but I can't find anything there to sue the University over. The guys signed a contract that has an ending date. As long as they are paid the amount of that contract, they have no recourse. (I've had some pretty damn sharp attornies here with labor and union law... I'm thinking I'm pretty close to the facts here). Like I've said before, Cousin Cliff and Uncle Milty don't want me on the jury.

If you "can't find anything there to sue the University over," then its because your eyes are sealed shut. Do you only read your own posts??? Check out a couple of posts from playerrep, he, and a few others, have laid out the legal action pretty clearly. pull your head dude.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

This here is turning into some great comedy! :clap:

 

[mcg]

O'Day will be paid through June 30, 2013, or 14.5 more months, according to this Missoulian article.

Did Engstrom not realize this when he terminated O'Day?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/former-um-athletic-director-to-get-extra-year-of-pay/article_53873922-88ef-11e1-9e7f-0019bb2963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

 

['68griz]

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

Exactamundo -- and that's why I think some sort of explanation is in order.

 

[ranco]

O'Day will be paid through June 30, 2013, or 14.5 more months, according to this Missoulian article.

Did Engstrom not realize this when he terminated O'Day?

http://missoulian.com/news/local/former-um-athletic-director-to-get-extra-year-of-pay/article_53873922-88ef-11e1-9e7f-0019bb2963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

 

[mcg]

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

I wonder if the contracts had language to the effect "and such other duties as the University President may deem to be appropriate". I think this language is pretty common in employment contracts to cover the fact that duties may arise that can't be foreseen when the contract is drafted. This language would tend to defuse the argument that Pflu and O'day have been fired because they are no longer acting as HC and AD.

 

[Grizmayor]

Thanks guys (or gals). I read the article the same way... that our coach and A.D. were "not having their contracts renewed", which is a standard operating procedure in the entire world, I think? Or in other words... Go Home and collect a check, we don't want your services anymore, but legally we have to pay you. Sorry, but I can't find anything there to sue the University over. The guys signed a contract that has an ending date. As long as they are paid the amount of that contract, they have no recourse. (I've had some pretty damn sharp attornies here with labor and union law... I'm thinking I'm pretty close to the facts here). Like I've said before, Cousin Cliff and Uncle Milty don't want me on the jury.

If you "can't find anything there to sue the University over," then its because your eyes are sealed shut. Do you only read your own posts??? Check out a couple of posts from playerrep, he, and a few others, have laid out the legal action pretty clearly. pull your head dude.

Dude... my lawyers represent 129 state municipalities within Montana. They're pretty adept in handling labor issues. I've sat across the table from Teamster lawyers and hot shots as well and heard it all. So.. GFY Dude. EGriz lawyers who don't have anything else but self-inserted speculation to derive their verdicts on, doesn't fortify your case... Dude.

 

[AZGrizFan]

here is Dr. Engstrom announcement:

http://news.umt.edu/2012/03/032912stat.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad. The University will announce an interim athletics director and interim head coach by the end of the week. Further details about the search for permanent replacements will be released as the process develops. We thank Jim and Robin for their dedicated service to the University, and we wish them the best.

The words 'fire' and 'terminate' are nowhere to be found. Clearly the U simply wants to position this as non-renewal of contracts.

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

Wrong. Contracts are "not renewed" all the time, and as soon as that decision is made, 90% of the time the person is relieved of their duties and paid out to the end of the contract.

 

[PlayerRep]

It is absurd to say or think the contracts were not renewed. The guys would still be working at their jobs if there were the case. The provision used to fire them, and presumably the written notice to them, is the termination without cause provision of the contracts.

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

Wrong. Contracts are "not renewed" all the time, and as soon as that decision is made, 90% of the time the person is relieved of their duties and paid out to the end of the contract.

Nope. That (the 90% thing) is absolutely not true. Completely false. Contracts are not renewed, but people are rarely relieved of their duties before the end of the contract. If the job is taken away immediately, the employees are terminated or their contact is bought out in some mutual fashion.

 

[ranco]

Thanks guys (or gals). I read the article the same way... that our coach and A.D. were "not having their contracts renewed", which is a standard operating procedure in the entire world, I think? Or in other words... Go Home and collect a check, we don't want your services anymore, but legally we have to pay you. Sorry, but I can't find anything there to sue the University over. The guys signed a contract that has an ending date. As long as they are paid the amount of that contract, they have no recourse. (I've had some pretty damn sharp attornies here with labor and union law... I'm thinking I'm pretty close to the facts here). Like I've said before, Cousin Cliff and Uncle Milty don't want me on the jury.

If you "can't find anything there to sue the University over," then its because your eyes are sealed shut. Do you only read your own posts??? Check out a couple of posts from playerrep, he, and a few others, have laid out the legal action pretty clearly. pull your head dude.

Dude... my lawyers represent 129 state municipalities within Montana. They're pretty adept in handling labor issues. I've sat across the table from Teamster lawyers and hot shots as well and heard it all. So.. GFY Dude. EGriz lawyers who don't have anything else but self-inserted speculation to derive their verdicts on, doesn't fortify your case... Dude.

you should ask one of them lawyers that you sit next to all the time to read the Yellowstone case to you.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Sorry, I don't understand why it is absurd to say the contracts weren't renewed. The University's announcement says literally "The University of Montana has determined not to renew the contracts of Athletics Director Jim O’Day and head football coach Robin Pflugrad." That is the only thing the University has said. Have you seen documentation between the University and Pflu and Mr. O'day that would suggest otherwise?

Just for the record, I think Dr. Engstrom was acting within his authority when he chose to not renew the contracts. I just can't figure out if it was a good idea or not.

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

Wrong. Contracts are "not renewed" all the time, and as soon as that decision is made, 90% of the time the person is relieved of their duties and paid out to the end of the contract.

Nope. That (the 90% thing) is absolutely not true. Completely false. Contracts are not renewed, but people are rarely relieved of their duties before the end of the contract. If the job is taken away immediately, the employees are terminated or their contact is bought out in some mutual fashion.

Really? Head football (and baseball) coaches are fired all the time and paid out their contracts...why do you think there's so many ex-head coaches sitting in broadcaster's booths? It's because they're getting massive paychecks from FORMER employers...i.e., their contract is getting paid out despite them not having keys to the Cadillac any more.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

EGriz lawyers who don't have anything else but self-inserted speculationto derive their verdicts on, doesn't fortify your case... Dude.

Subtle OBGYN reference?

 

[br fan]

If a contract is non-renewed then the parties continue performing their contractual duties until the term ends. Obviously, that is not the case here. The non-renewal term used by Engstrom may sound good, but in actuality it’s nothing more than an acknowledgement that he fired them without cause . You are right that Engstrom had full authority to fire them, which, given the inept way he exercises that authority, is a pretty scary thought for any current or future employees (not to mention the tax payers that will be stuck paying for his blunders).

Wrong. Contracts are "not renewed" all the time, and as soon as that decision is made, 90% of the time the person is relieved of their duties and paid out to the end of the contract.

Nope. That (the 90% thing) is absolutely not true. Completely false. Contracts are not renewed, but people are rarely relieved of their duties before the end of the contract. If the job is taken away immediately, the employees are terminated or their contact is bought out in some mutual fashion.

Really? Head football (and baseball) coaches are fired all the time and paid out their contracts...why do you think there's so many ex-head coaches sitting in broadcaster's booths? It's because they're getting massive paychecks from FORMER employers...i.e., their contract is getting paid out despite them not having keys to the Cadillac any more.

Depends on what type of former coach you're talking about. UM coaches are governmental employees, and only governmental employees are eligible for PERS. If you do not renew a governmental employee's contract, they normally will nonetheless remain an employee until the end of the term or they will lose those retirement benefits. If they lose those benefits you have in essence fired them. In a govermental employee situation, they may revise the employee's duties so they have in essence nothing to do during the remainder of the term, but they will not relieve them.