Billings Gazette

[AZGrizFan]

:clap: Here here - a random act of journalism - bravo!!

I think that Engstrom is accountable for the damage done to the reputation of the University for fair treatment of its workforce. When it comes time to recruit the next HC or AD, who is going to take the job that starts with low pay and then offers an incentive that you can be terminated when the political head winds blow, even if your job performance is not in question?

:? :? :? :? :?

"Job performance" is much more than just wins or losses or conference championships.

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

 

[grizatwork]

:clap: Here here - a random act of journalism - bravo!!

I think that Engstrom is accountable for the damage done to the reputation of the University for fair treatment of its workforce. When it comes time to recruit the next HC or AD, who is going to take the job that starts with low pay and then offers an incentive that you can be terminated when the political head winds blow, even if your job performance is not in question?

:? :? :? :? :?

"Job performance" is much more than just wins or losses or conference championships.

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

Good rule of thumb. If you are agreeing with Joe Kusek, you are probably on the wrong side of an argument.

 

[SoCalGriz]

Help me understand AZGriz, besides BD's charges for admitted rape, please tell me exactly what else is there besides allegations. I have read enough to suggest JJ could be innocent, thus Phlu's comments may have been right on. I am not aware of anything else that is even being considered in regard to rape etc.. It appears the Missoulian has been great at reporting negatives and not so much on the positives, so if that is where all your info comes from you are sadly misinformed.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Help me understand AZGriz, besides BD's charges for admitted rape, please tell me exactly what else is there besides allegations. I have read enough to suggest JJ could be innocent, thus Phlu's comments may have been right on. I am not aware of anything else that is even being considered in regard to rape etc.. It appears the Missoulian has been great at reporting negatives and not so much on the positives, so if that is where all your info comes from you are sadly misinformed.

You ever heard the saying "Perception is reality"? Sadly, sometimes its actually true. Fair or not, the U was getting a VERY bad reputation because of people's perceptions (rightly or wrongly) about what was transpiring. Now, could EVERY charge/accusation out there be bogus? Sure...is that likely? Hardly....Where there's smoke there's typically some fire, and the fact that not enough evidence exists/was collected to actually CHARGE people doesn't make the perception go away. Couple that with Pflu's over-the-top comments regarding JJ upon his return to practice and you have a shitstorm of epic proportions that literally forced Engstrom's hand.

I believe O'Day didn't want to fire Pflu, and I believe Engstrom didn't have the guts to fire either one, but his hand was forced by certain members of the BOR. If he'd actually HAD the guts, he'd have done it right after the last playoff game. It wouldn't have taken Pflu's comments (and the resulting firestorm) to make it happen.

 

[SoCalGriz]

Help me understand AZGriz, besides BD's charges for admitted rape, please tell me exactly what else is there besides allegations. I have read enough to suggest JJ could be innocent, thus Phlu's comments may have been right on. I am not aware of anything else that is even being considered in regard to rape etc.. It appears the Missoulian has been great at reporting negatives and not so much on the positives, so if that is where all your info comes from you are sadly misinformed.

You ever heard the saying "Perception is reality"? Sadly, sometimes its actually true. Fair or not, the U was getting a VERY bad reputation because of people's perceptions (rightly or wrongly) about what was transpiring. Now, could EVERY charge/accusation out there be bogus? Sure...is that likely? Hardly....Where there's smoke there's typically some fire, and the fact that not enough evidence exists/was collected to actually CHARGE people doesn't make the perception go away. Couple that with Pflu's over-the-top comments regarding JJ upon his return to practice and you have a shitstorm of epic proportions that literally forced Engstrom's hand.

I believe O'Day didn't want to fire Pflu, and I believe Engstrom didn't have the guts to fire either one, but his hand was forced by certain members of the BOR. If he'd actually HAD the guts, he'd have done it right after the last playoff game. It wouldn't have taken Pflu's comments (and the resulting firestorm) to make it happen.

You kind of made my point AZ. The Missoulian has created the perception. They have sensationalized before fact was discovered or proven. They have not been balanced and have not reported on the good things that Phlu and others have done. They have not reported much on the generosity of the players in multiple ways in the community-(I cant back that up, but I was told). The Missoulian could have created some balance and have done nothing what so ever to show the good side of Griz football except the winning program and that is BS if you only consider the wins/losses.

 

[PlayerRep]

:clap: Here here - a random act of journalism - bravo!!

I think that Engstrom is accountable for the damage done to the reputation of the University for fair treatment of its workforce. When it comes time to recruit the next HC or AD, who is going to take the job that starts with low pay and then offers an incentive that you can be terminated when the political head winds blow, even if your job performance is not in question?

:? :? :? :? :?

"Job performance" is much more than just wins or losses or conference championships.

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

 

[griz4life]

:? :? :? :? :?

"Job performance" is much more than just wins or losses or conference championships.

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

You're right, PR. But it still wasn't a smart thing to say given the circumstances. It took no time at all for Van de Wetering to call up the Missoulian and most likely the administration, too.
It also wasn't smart for the Athletic Department to issue Pflu's comments in an official press release. People seem to have forgotten UM's role in disseminating those comments, mostly because the Missoulian portrayed the remarks as "Pflugrad told the Missoulian," an exclusive. In truth the remarks were issued by the Athletic Department in a press release and posted on GoGriz.com, which suggests the whole message could have been spiked by the AD.

 

[AZGrizFan]

:? :? :? :? :?

"Job performance" is much more than just wins or losses or conference championships.

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

 

[SoCalGriz]

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

This is exactly what drives me crazy on this deal. Perception created by the Missoulian is reality. Thus regardless if JJ was 100% innocent and was more of a victim in this deal, the coach should still not defend his player. What country are we living in? Are we now guilty till proven innocent?

 

[grizatwork]

The problem is the perception that became reality was not created by the Missoulian. Regardless of who was charged with what crime and what they eventually were negotiated down to, there was/is a perception of a football program that had more than it's fair share of people in trouble per capita. Whether it was more than the general student population is irrelavent. There was a perception on campus, in Missoula, in the State, and evidently nationwide that we had a troubled program. The Missoulian reported it, they did not create it. In the big time world of college football, perception is reality and people lose their jobs if the perception reflects poorly on the University. By acting, the University changed that perception.

 

[AZGrizFan]

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

This is exactly what drives me crazy on this deal. Perception created by the Missoulian is reality. Thus regardless if JJ was 100% innocent and was more of a victim in this deal, the coach should still not defend his player. What country are we living in? Are we now guilty till proven innocent?

There's a difference (and a very significant one) between "defending a player" and saying the stuff Pflu said. Honestly, it comes down to just knowing when to keep your mouth shut. He could have simply said "we're glad to have him back on the football field, he's one of our leaders"....

“Obviously it’s going to be a process here, and we can’t comment on the process,” Pflugrad said. “However … I think any time you have a person of Jordy’s character and tremendous moral fiber, and he’s your team captain and part of the leadership council, your players are going to be fired up.

“And on top of that he’s a tremendous football player. When you get I would say your No. 1 guy back in all categories, on and off the football field, guys are excited.”

Gasoline. Fire. :fuel: :fuel:

 

[SoCalGriz]

OK AZ, I have to agree with you on that.

 

[mtgrizrule]

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

This is exactly what drives me crazy on this deal. Perception created by the Missoulian is reality. Thus regardless if JJ was 100% innocent and was more of a victim in this deal, the coach should still not defend his player. What country are we living in? Are we now guilty till proven innocent?

There's a difference (and a very significant one) between "defending a player" and saying the stuff Pflu said. Honestly, it comes down to just knowing when to keep your mouth shut. He could have simply said "we're glad to have him back on the football field, he's one of our leaders"....

“Obviously it’s going to be a process here, and we can’t comment on the process,” Pflugrad said. “However … I think any time you have a person of Jordy’s character and tremendous moral fiber, and he’s your team captain and part of the leadership council, your players are going to be fired up.

“And on top of that he’s a tremendous football player. When you get I would say your No. 1 guy back in all categories, on and off the football field, guys are excited.”

Gasoline. Fire. :fuel: :fuel:

I don't see anything wrong with what Pflu said, as for the wording. Is the problem with the quote all in the interpretation made of the possible victim, and other females? I just did not interpret this as something this controversial. Someone(s) mind to fill me in on this part?

 

[ranco]

From all information available publicly, this aspect of their "job performance" was satisfactorially addressed by the recommendations of the Barz report. To then terminate these two individuals after that has been published has blown up an entire athletic department. Good for Joe Kusek.

You may very well be right. But PFlu's comments re: Jordy Johnson upon his return to the team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he truly didn't "get" it.

I was told that Pflu has known JJ since he was 6 or 7, and has known the family for many years. Pflu was probably in a very good position to comment on JJ's character. My guess is that others who know JJ would back up what Pflu said.

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

Wow. I'm sure glad you are not my father. I was never a big Pflu fan, but I gained respect for him when he spoke up for JJ. Your comment is well taken though because that's what led to the firings. So there are two camps, in one camp you believe it's proper to stand up and support someone's character who you know and trust. In the other camp, you think someone should be fired for that.

 

[Teton Cat]

I think that most college men (and women for that matter) that engage in consenual sex is very normal and just part of the college experience......but it is unwise to describe them as possessing "a strong character and tremendous moral fiber". This was just over the top.....these words should be written when you are defending Gandi, T-Bow, or Jesus!!! I don't think any Griz (or Cat) players are in that category. My two kids (boy & girl) that went to college were very good kids....but they did all the fun things that their old man did too...."call it weak but passionate" and probabily stupid....none of us thought we had a strong character or tremendous moral fiber when we graduated....just normal...and not a whole lot of regrets either!!!!

 

[mtgrizrule]

I think that most college men (and women for that matter) that engage in consenual sex is very normal and just part of the college experience......but it is unwise to describe them as possessing "a strong character and tremendous moral fiber". This was just over the top.....these words should be written when you are defending Gandi, T-Bow, or Jesus!!! I don't think any Griz (or Cat) players are in that category. My two kids (boy & girl) that went to college were very good kids....but they did all the fun things that their old man did too...."call it weak but passionate" and probabily stupid....none of us thought we had a strong character or tremendous moral fiber when we graduated....just normal...and not a whole lot of regrets either!!!!

DAMN, another well spoken Cat fan. It is so hard to give them credit. I will take this kind of Cat fan, anyday, over some of the more frequent posting cat fans, you know who they are. :thumb:

 

[Teton Cat]

Oh never fear..... I'll get my licks in come Fall!!!

 

[mtgrizrule]

Oh never fear..... I'll get my licks in come Fall!!!

Glad to see a cat fan admit to licking their wounds from the GRIZ. Nothing new there. :thumb:

 

[AZGrizFan]

I don't give a shit if he's his father. You don't say that in that setting. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire....and it proved Pflu truly didn't understand the magnitude of the issues facing the university.

This is exactly what drives me crazy on this deal. Perception created by the Missoulian is reality. Thus regardless if JJ was 100% innocent and was more of a victim in this deal, the coach should still not defend his player. What country are we living in? Are we now guilty till proven innocent?

There's a difference (and a very significant one) between "defending a player" and saying the stuff Pflu said. Honestly, it comes down to just knowing when to keep your mouth shut. He could have simply said "we're glad to have him back on the football field, he's one of our leaders"....

“Obviously it’s going to be a process here, and we can’t comment on the process,” Pflugrad said. “However … I think any time you have a person of Jordy’s character and tremendous moral fiber, and he’s your team captain and part of the leadership council, your players are going to be fired up.

“And on top of that he’s a tremendous football player. When you get I would say your No. 1 guy back in all categories, on and off the football field, guys are excited.”

Gasoline. Fire. :fuel: :fuel:

I don't see anything wrong with what Pflu said, as for the wording. Is the problem with the quote all in the interpretation made of the possible victim, and other females? I just did not interpret this as something this controversial. Someone(s) mind to fill me in on this part?

I don't see anything wrong with what Pflu said either....if JJ hadn't just been accuse of rape. But given the sensitivity of the situation, he gave the appearance of going out of his way and over the top with his effusive praise of JJ. May all be true, but timing is everything. And this timing most likely cost him his job because of the firestorm it ignited.