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Big Sky Tournament

it’s tough to win a game on somebody else’s court.

Why, YES!!! Yes, Mr. Spear. It's SUPPOSED to be difficult!! That's why you bust your ass to win the league.


This is just more of the same: the have-nots in the bsc doing all they can to be sure everyone gets a ribbon. We are NOT the WAC. And we are CERTAINLY not the WCC. The Zags are getting a bid 19 years out of 20 whether they win the tournament or not. At least one other WCC team is probably getting a bid as well (BYU, ST Mary's, Pepp, etc).

In the bsc, we should be doing ALL we can to put our best team in the tournament. I propose either doing away completely with the tournament and hinging it all on the regular season, or advancing the regular season champion directly to the championship game, played on their home floor.

"It's hard to win on someone else's floor." Good grief....
 
Completely agree with EG. We get one team per year. The other conferences you mention can easily get an bid or more in addition to the auto bid. The season needs to mean more and give the conference champ an advantage. They earned it.
 
Bengal visitor said:
In the interest of equal time, a slightly different view of the new tournament arrangement from Rob Spear, Idaho athletic director, from an interview with the Coeur d'Alene Press:

On the Big Sky men’s and women’s basketball tournaments moving to Reno, a neutral site, for the next two years. In the past, the league champion has hosted the tourneys, often on short notice:

“Love it,” Spear said. “It was one of the things we advocated for when we got into the Big Sky, because we came out of a league in the WAC that had the tournament in Vegas. There’s a couple things that make it the right thing — one is, having a neutral site, getting off the host school’s home court, it’s tough to win a game on somebody else’s court. The other thing, I think you take care of the student-athlete better. There were so many examples of student-athletes not knowing whether they’re going to make the tournament, or where the tournament would be, and that would preclude their parents coming and watching them play. So now that all teams are in, it’s planned in advance, it gives everybody an opportunity to get there. And it’s a lot better situation to plan for travel-wise. Thankfully, last year Montana ended up being the host school (for the men’s tournament), and we were able to bus over (to Missoula). But if you’re a school, and you have to get airfare at the last minute, it becomes very expensive.”

Spear said not having a “home” crowd could be a “negative,” but he’s hopeful Reno becomes an annual destination place for Big Sky fans, just like Las Vegas has become for West Coast Conference (mostly Gonzaga) fans. He said with the West Coast, the WAC, the Mountain West and the Pac-12 already holding conference tourneys in Vegas, there was no room left for the Big Sky.

The last time Idaho played in the WAC tourney in vegas they made the championship game, in front of 1500 announced attendance. I believe the Qtr and Semi final games were closer to 1000.

Here is the WAC championship game in Vegas last year, look at all those fans, and this is in Vegas, we are going to freaking Reno...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvnNY729fWA
 
In many respects, I agree with you guys on the tournament. The format I liked the best was the one where the top 6 got in, with the top two getting a bye. Then the next four competed for the right to host first round games, and the final four was played on the home floor of the regular season champ.

From a fan's perspective, that was great -- it kept interest going throughout the season, everybody was either playing to get into the tournament, for a bye, or to host a first-round game.

BUT, I have become more educated about the hassles of last minute travel. Not just for the teams (I can see EG getting ready to throw up that "saving $270" platitude -:), but also for parents and families of kids. If you think about it, the tournament is the last game of the season for most of these teams. And the last games of the career for most of the seniors. Not knowing if your kid is going to play in the tournament until the last minute is a huge issue for parents and families of players. And no, I don't see this as "everybody gets a ribbon" stuff. I see this as sincere concern by the conference for the student athletes and their families. I know most of you guys don't give two Xhits about the athletes or their families, but I submit that's REALLY what this stuff is supposed to be about -- even if it rarely is.

Anyway, I know none of this will convince folks that holding the tournament in Reno is a great idea -- as a fan, I'd still rather see the regular season have meaning myself. Frankly, I'd rather see the league go to a full round-robin schedule and just declare the regular champ the NCAA rep. But I do see the logic behind having a pre-determined, neutral site and putting the athletes and their families' concerns first.
 
BV, we all get that. But let's be brutally honest: the reason the tournament is being held in Reno is NOT so Frank and Myrtle from Blackfoot, ID can go watch Junior play. It's nice that they can, I guess. Whether they do or not is another huge question.

But let's not kid ourselves that the bsc did this for the benefit of the student-athlete's families.

But even if they did, it still abdicates the primary responsibility of the Conference: to protect it's members, particularly its top members.
 
What an immature and childish response Bengal. I care plenty about the atheletes which is why the atheletes that earned home court advantage should get it. Also this is no longer junior high or high school. These young men are perfectly capable of, or should be capable of learning a life lesson. In this case if you want something than earn it. Also those who earn something should get it. Isnt that what college is for? Preparing the students for life?
 
cmtgrizzly said:
What an immature and childish response Bengal. I care plenty about the atheletes which is why the atheletes that earned home court advantage should get it. Also this is no longer junior high or high school. These young men are perfectly capable of, or should be capable of learning a life lesson. In this case if you want something than earn it. Also those who earn something should get it. Isnt that what college is for? Preparing the students for life?

Sorry if my response struck you as childish and immature, CMT, but isn't it immature to be unwilling, or incapable, of trying to understand the perspective of others in the debate? Again, as a fan I'd rather see the old tournament format. What I'm saying is that I also understand the position of the conference when it makes changes to benefit the athletes and their families. What life lesson are they learning when their parents can't make travel plans in advance because they don't know if their team is going to qualify for the tournament, or even where the tournament is going to be held? You don't have to agree with that perspective, but I think you can at least appreciate where the league is coming from.
 
EverettGriz said:
BV, we all get that. But let's be brutally honest: the reason the tournament is being held in Reno is NOT so Frank and Myrtle from Blackfoot, ID can go watch Junior play. It's nice that they can, I guess. Whether they do or not is another huge question.

But let's not kid ourselves that the bsc did this for the benefit of the student-athlete's families.

But even if they did, it still abdicates the primary responsibility of the Conference: to protect it's members, particularly its top members.

I think the Big Sky made these changes for a number of reasons: they wanted travel certainty for teams, staff, fans and parents and families of athletes. They wanted a neutral court. I know that drives the fans in Montana and Weber crazy, but if I'm a coach at Idaho State or NAU, I'm going to make the case for a neutral court because it's in my interest. You may disagree with it, but the bottom line is the conference ADs and presidents agreed. And I think the league knew in advance this would be an uphill climb as far as attendance is concerned, but they believe they can grow it over time -- just like other leagues have done over time.

Oh, and don't kid yourself: the Big Sky will not be the only small conference whose tournament will be played before scores of empty seats in March. Watch most of the Non-Power 5 tourneys and you'll see all the empty seats you want to see.

I don't think it's going to be the end of the world as we know if the Big Sky happens to send a .500 or below team to the NCAA tournament. Sure, we'd all like to see a team that's capable of getting a 13 or 12 seed go to the tourney and win a game or two, but I remember when Idaho State, a sixth seed with a 12-15 record, got hot and won the tourney in Bozeman back in 1987. They got the last seed and got blown out by No. 1 ranked UNLV, but you know what? The league did not fold from embarrassment. That rare occurrence 20 years ago didn't stop Weber from beating North Carolina or Montana winning an NCAA game in 2006.

So the powers that be are willing to trade off a crowd of 6,000 or 7,000 fans at Missoula or Ogden and a home court advantage for the regular season champ for the things they value more: travel certainty and neutrality. Again, you can disagree with those priorities, but I can at least understand them.
 
What struck me as childish and immature was your leap of accusation from us saying we think the conference tournament host should be the conference champ to us not caring about atheletes or their families (and said in a derogatory manner) and was compounded by the fact that you agreed with us but didnt include yourself in the comment of not giving a shit about the athletes amd families.
 
cmtgrizzly said:
What struck me as childish and immature was your leap of accusation from us saying we think the conference tournament host should be the conference champ to us not caring about atheletes or their families (and said in a derogatory manner) and was compounded by the fact that you agreed with us but didnt include yourself in the comment of not giving a shit about the athletes amd families.

Fair enough -- an unwarranted leap in logic. But at the same time, can you understand why the conference might want to give travel certainty to parents and families of athletes?
 
Of course it is nice for parents to make it to their kids games. I do think parents who make it a priority as they should will make it wherever the tournament is held. Do away with the tourney and just give the bid to the conference champs. That would give more time for travel arrangements. Ask the kids who win the conference if they prefer to give up home court advantage. If it is really about the atheletes, all of the atheletes, let them vote. If all teams vote for a neutral site then great, I fully support a neutral site. However if some of the teams such as UM or WSU who tend to win the conference dont agree and feel they earned the right to host and want to host then I do not think they should have to give that advantage up so that parents travel plans are easier to make. We get one team in per year and it means a hell of alot to these players. I think the conference champions would be more than a little disappointed if they didnt make the tourney based on a tournament that was played at a neutral site when they earned the right to host by being the best team over the entire season. Just my two cents.'
 
Bengal visitor said:
EverettGriz said:
BV, we all get that. But let's be brutally honest: the reason the tournament is being held in Reno is NOT so Frank and Myrtle from Blackfoot, ID can go watch Junior play. It's nice that they can, I guess. Whether they do or not is another huge question.

But let's not kid ourselves that the bsc did this for the benefit of the student-athlete's families.
I think the Big Sky made these changes for a number of reasons: they wanted travel certainty for teams, staff, fans and parents and families of athletes. They wanted a neutral court. I know that drives the fans in Montana and Weber crazy, but if I'm a coach at Idaho State or NAU, I'm going to make the case for a neutral court because it's in my interest. You may disagree with it, but the bottom line is the conference ADs and presidents agreed. And I think the league knew in advance this would be an uphill climb as far as attendance is concerned, but they believe they can grow it over time -- just like other leagues have done over time.

Oh, and don't kid yourself: the Big Sky will not be the only small conference whose tournament will be played before scores of empty seats in March. Watch most of the Non-Power 5 tourneys and you'll see all the empty
But even if they did, it still abdicates the primary responsibility of the Conference: to protect it's members, particularly its top members.

seats you want to see.

I don't think it's going to be the end of the world as we know if the Big Sky happens to send a .500 or below team to the NCAA tournament. Sure, we'd all like to see a team that's capable of getting a 13 or 12 seed go to the tourney and win a game or two, but I remember when Idaho State, a sixth seed with a 12-15 record, got hot and won the tourney in Bozeman back in 1987. They got the last seed and got blown out by No. 1 ranked UNLV, but you know what? The league did not fold from embarrassment. That rare occurrence 20 years ago didn't stop Weber from beating North Carolina or Montana winning an NCAA game in 2006.

So the powers that be are willing to trade off a crowd of 6,000 or 7,000 fans at Missoula or Ogden and a home court advantage for the regular season champ for the things they value more: travel certainty and neutrality. Again, you can disagree with those priorities, but I can at least understand them.


No doubt having a location in advance is helpful. But I've got to call BS on the remainder of the travel arrangements. For the most part, other than UM and Weber, teams still don't know if they'll be playing Tuesday or not. So do parents/fans/teams book travel in for Tuesday or do they wait for Thursday? It really doesn't solve a problem, other than where they're going. My hunch is that very, very few travel arrangements have been made by anyone yet.

And again: I understand completely why sac state, psu, unc and others want a neutral floor. Hell, I would too if I were them. Why wouldntcha? But as I've stated many times, that's just the typical BSC bullsh*t of catering to the lowest common denominator. Imagine the response if say, Pacific, told the WCC that they no longer want their tournament held in Vegas because too many Zag fans go and give them an unfair advantage, so they request it get moved to Sacramento. The WCC brass would fall right out of their cushy leather chairs laughing their asses off. They GET it, in other words. They understand where their bread is buttered, and it ain't with Pacific. Why the bsc, with far more to lose as a one-bid league, caters to those teams never ceases to amaze me. It's 180 degrees back-assward. The WCC has basically told their members, you want the same benefits Gonzaga gets? You want a level playing field? Great. Get as good as Gonzaga. Get as big as Gonzaga. That's what real conferences do. That raises the level of the entire conference. The bsc forces everyone down to the lowest level.

And I guess we can disagree about whether a team with an RPI in the mid 300s getting blown out in the play-in rounds is embarrassing and damaging for the conference or not. I can guarantee this: It will further degrade all teams' in the conference ability to recruit. And I don't think I need to explain to you that most of these teams can't afford that.
 
EverettGriz said:
Bengal visitor said:
EverettGriz said:
BV, we all get that. But let's be brutally honest: the reason the tournament is being held in Reno is NOT so Frank and Myrtle from Blackfoot, ID can go watch Junior play. It's nice that they can, I guess. Whether they do or not is another huge question.

But let's not kid ourselves that the bsc did this for the benefit of the student-athlete's families.
I think the Big Sky made these changes for a number of reasons: they wanted travel certainty for teams, staff, fans and parents and families of athletes. They wanted a neutral court. I know that drives the fans in Montana and Weber crazy, but if I'm a coach at Idaho State or NAU, I'm going to make the case for a neutral court because it's in my interest. You may disagree with it, but the bottom line is the conference ADs and presidents agreed. And I think the league knew in advance this would be an uphill climb as far as attendance is concerned, but they believe they can grow it over time -- just like other leagues have done over time.

Oh, and don't kid yourself: the Big Sky will not be the only small conference whose tournament will be played before scores of empty seats in March. Watch most of the Non-Power 5 tourneys and you'll see all the empty
But even if they did, it still abdicates the primary responsibility of the Conference: to protect it's members, particularly its top members.

seats you want to see.

I don't think it's going to be the end of the world as we know if the Big Sky happens to send a .500 or below team to the NCAA tournament. Sure, we'd all like to see a team that's capable of getting a 13 or 12 seed go to the tourney and win a game or two, but I remember when Idaho State, a sixth seed with a 12-15 record, got hot and won the tourney in Bozeman back in 1987. They got the last seed and got blown out by No. 1 ranked UNLV, but you know what? The league did not fold from embarrassment. That rare occurrence 20 years ago didn't stop Weber from beating North Carolina or Montana winning an NCAA game in 2006.

So the powers that be are willing to trade off a crowd of 6,000 or 7,000 fans at Missoula or Ogden and a home court advantage for the regular season champ for the things they value more: travel certainty and neutrality. Again, you can disagree with those priorities, but I can at least understand them.


No doubt having a location in advance is helpful. But I've got to call BS on the remainder of the travel arrangements. For the most part, other than UM and Weber, teams still don't know if they'll be playing Tuesday or not. So do parents/fans/teams book travel in for Tuesday or do they wait for Thursday? It really doesn't solve a problem, other than where they're going. My hunch is that very, very few travel arrangements have been made by anyone yet.

And again: I understand completely why sac state, psu, unc and others want a neutral floor. Hell, I would too if I were them. Why wouldntcha? But as I've stated many times, that's just the typical BSC bullsh*t of catering to the lowest common denominator. Imagine the response if say, Pacific, told the WCC that they no longer want their tournament held in Vegas because too many Zag fans go and give them an unfair advantage, so they request it get moved to Sacramento. The WCC brass would fall right out of their cushy leather chairs laughing their asses off. They GET it, in other words. They understand where their bread is buttered, and it ain't with Pacific. Why the bsc, with far more to lose as a one-bid league, caters to those teams never ceases to amaze me. It's 180 degrees back-assward. The WCC has basically told their members, you want the same benefits Gonzaga gets? You want a level playing field? Great. Get as good as Gonzaga. Get as big as Gonzaga. That's what real conferences do. That raises the level of the entire conference. The bsc forces everyone down to the lowest level.

And I guess we can disagree about whether a team with an RPI in the mid 300s getting blown out in the play-in rounds is embarrassing and damaging for the conference or not. I can guarantee this: It will further degrade all teams' in the conference ability to recruit. And I don't think I need to explain to you that most of these teams can't afford that.

Good Post EG

The teams that suffer the most with the move to RENO are Weber and UM, because they have the most fans, so they get screwed on traveling instead of hosting. Regardless of how well the other schools are doing, only Weber and UM are going to travel well, and the problem with this is most years one of those schools shouldn't have to travel because their team won the conference, so Weber and UM are really getting screwed in this deal. I'm shocked UM and Weber agreed to this, considering UM's pull in this conference they should have fought it more.

What BV doesn't understand is we need the best Big Sky team in the NCAA tourney, we don't need our freaking 6th seed there because we will get the play in game and if we are lucky enough to win that, we'll get blasted by the freaking 1 seed. We need our best team in the damn tourney for a better shot at winning some games, which would help our conference tremendously! Having shitty seeds in the NCAA year in, year out are just going to kill our conference...
 
Yes but isnt there a consolation bracket? Participation medals for all?
Free Big Sky Conference plastic cups and beer cooseys for all attendees?

The Montana Class C state tourney will have 2-3 k fans I expect, just sayin
 
The main reason this is Bull Crap is that the regular season means very little...

The top 4 get byes.
And the top 2 wont meet until the final.
Also, the game that will most likely determine the reluar season championship is the UM/Weber game in Ogden. (And if UM loses they dont even get a home game to even the slate.)

Whoever came up with this idea and whoever agreed to it ALL need to be let go of their jobs!

So Whoo Hooo "we" won the regular season...
what do we get?
To travel 1000 miles away and play in front of 200-400 of our fans!
 
Paytonlives said:
The main reason this is Bull Crap is that the regular season means very little...

The top 4 get byes.
And the top 2 wont meet until the final.
Also, the game that will most likely determine the reluar season championship is the UM/Weber game in Ogden. (And if UM loses they dont even get a home game to even the slate.)

Whoever came up with this idea and whoever agreed to it ALL need to be let go of their jobs!

So Whoo Hooo "we" won the regular season...
what do we get?
To travel 1000 miles away and play in front of 200-400 of our fans!


I agree with this whole post, I hate the way that the Big Sky does the scheduling, they need to just move to a full Big Sky slate. And the Big Sky made the regular season meaningless by taking any reward for finishing first away and allowing all 12 teams to participate.
 
WILDCATFAN said:
Paytonlives said:
The main reason this is Bull Crap is that the regular season means very little...

The top 4 get byes.
And the top 2 wont meet until the final.
Also, the game that will most likely determine the reluar season championship is the UM/Weber game in Ogden. (And if UM loses they dont even get a home game to even the slate.)

Whoever came up with this idea and whoever agreed to it ALL need to be let go of their jobs!

So Whoo Hooo "we" won the regular season...
what do we get?
To travel 1000 miles away and play in front of 200-400 of our fans!


I agree with this whole post, I hate the way that the Big Sky does the scheduling, they need to just move to a full Big Sky slate. And the Big Sky made the regular season meaningless by taking any reward for finishing first away and allowing all 12 teams to participate.
+1, over and over and over.
 
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