Assumptions?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

My lynch mob reference due to people not thinking before they act or say but just jumping in on attacking others. Group mentality is something I experienced in Japan often, and during the earthquake it helped keep things calm with no looting etc. But Group thinking is also very dangerous and harmful when its used in attacking others like many folks are on student athletes and during the firing of Pflu and Oday.

You really dont get it do you........................ :roll:

 

[AZGrizFan]

That concept is unimportant to Lynch Mobs like we have here.

Are you REALLY this much of a simpleton? :? :? :? :?

If believing in the freedoms our ancestors fought for to build america and give us freedom from unlawful prosecution and imprisonment then yes I am simple. Taking away the rights of football students accused but not arrested, not charged, not convicted is exactly what you and the rest of this Lynch mob stand for.

Tokyo, although I find myself on your side of some of this, excluding your fire everyone rants, I would like to make a suggestion. Lay off the lynch mob stuff. You say it in every thread, every post, and every response to everything, no matter what folks are talking about. It hurts your argument. Say it once, and people get the point. Say it over and over and over it gets obnoxious.
Take what you said above: What you said was actually brilliant. It was the definitive response. No matter how hard anyone tries to argue with what you said, you won that point. But then you ruined it by throwing in the lynch mob stuff again. These folks aren't evil, like actual lynch mobs were, they're just Griz Fans with different opinions. Just a suggestion.

Actually, all he did was FURTHER undermine his credibility by swinging wildly and missing the point altogether. No one is taking away anyone's "freedoms", this isn't akin to the Japanese internment camps (as he has inferred in other threads). These two guys were fired for a failure of leadership. PERIOD. There doesn't have to be a fucking inquisition, trial, conviction, etc. This isn't Matlock or L.A. Law....Engstrom didn't have to wait to ensure that every football player accused of date rape was found guilty before making a final decision. Pflu ran a loose ship, it started sinking on him, and instead of bailing out the ship, O'Day chose to stand beside him claiming there was nothing wrong. THAT is a collosal failure in leadership and that is NOT what we need running the show at the university. So, to equate THAT with some misguided attempt to tie it all to "taking away freedoms our ancestors fought for" is fucking laughable at best, and pathetic at worst. No football players "rights" were taken away. THEIR FOOTBALL COACH WAS FIRED. Period. End of story. When the football players are tossed in jail without a jury trial and left to rot on an accusation, call me. Until then, enough of the hyperbole. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[tnt]

Azgriz fan hit the nail on the head. Tried convicted or not the reputation of the players was hurting the reputation of the program an in turn the University. The fact is sooner than later the football program itself would be hurt.

Beyond that despite the seeming success of Pflu, his lack of discipline cost the program a play-off berth (and conference championship) as well as a possible national championship. The number mistakes made and more importantly REPEATED game after game the last 2 years were purely lack of discipline ON THE FIELD. I was no fan of Hauck BUT those mistakes would have had consequences game day (no one lost the ball and didn't pay a price) and guarantee practice the next week was no picnic either nor was it with the successful coaches before him. The lack of disciple was obvious in all areas. A leadership change was necessary.

Fortunately for the program and the University the boosters are given plenty of strokes as long as they keep writing checks, but when real decisions need made they are made in the best interests of the program and university.

 

[Gaeilge1]

Back to the question at hand.

What makes anyone assume that the football program, academics or the status of UM will improve with the letting go of the AD and Head Football Coach?

We all recognize that there is a problem and that the problem has to be dealt with. However will the actions taken on Thursday actually rectify this problem? I don't know the answer but could argue it both ways. Without having all of the facts however, all we can do is speculate. That is why I ask.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Back to the question at hand.

What makes anyone assume that the football program, academics or the status of UM will improve with the letting go of the AD and Head Football Coach?

We all recognize that there is a problem and that the problem has to be dealt with. However will the actions taken on Thursday actually rectify this problem? I don't know the answer but could argue it both ways. Without having all of the facts however, all we can do is speculate. That is why I ask.

That depends on whether Engstrom and the new AD learn from O'Day's mistake and hire another coach who'd rather be their friend than their mentor/coach.

 

[Tokyogriz]

Nothing is going to change because society itself is the issue not this football program. The rapist who got 100 years was right under Pflu and Odays public firings in the missoulian. Peltier was a Missoula boy, not a football guy. The Saudi Student was no involved in sports in fact Engstrom holds the reins on that fiasco. One of the girls in the alleged attack that got ruffied had UM students attack her, to my knowledge none of them were football students.

Violence,crime, drugs all society issues. Bobcats coming over here talking crap about how holy their program is now make me laugh since half their team just failed drug tests and one athlete almost beat another to death recently over a woman.

Royce is covering his own ass doing this. Firing the coach and AD is only a feel good for the group haters/lynchers who refuse to make changes in their own personal life but would rather see others take the blame.

I teach my kids right from wrong and hope this will make them decent guys thats the best I can do. If others did the same it would actually make a difference.

 

[GrizLA]

Could it get any worse?

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If they do, it is time to really get serious about moving DOWN in college football or drop the program entirely. This is not what college athletics is supposed to be about.
From Montana to Auburn to USC and many others, the time has come to clean house...and that includes the hit man bonus offered by the Pros....something has gone terribly wrong in our athletic programs and needs to be addressed...

 

[Tokyogriz]

Could it get any worse?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

If they do, it is time to really get serious about moving DOWN in college football or drop the program entirely. This is not what college athletics is supposed to be about.
From Montana to Auburn to USC and many others, the time has come to clean house...and that includes the hit man bonus offered by the Pros....something has gone terribly wrong in our athletic programs and needs to be addressed...

Step back from America for a bit you will see its a reflection of our Society not just the athletes. The atheletes failures are mirror images of problems with our own culture.

 

[GrizLA]

Could it get any worse?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

If they do, it is time to really get serious about moving DOWN in college football or drop the program entirely. This is not what college athletics is supposed to be about.
From Montana to Auburn to USC and many others, the time has come to clean house...and that includes the hit man bonus offered by the Pros....something has gone terribly wrong in our athletic programs and needs to be addressed...

Step back from America for a bit you will see its a reflection of our Society not just the athletes. The atheletes failures are mirror images of problems with our own culture.

And, from what I have seen here,you represent what has happened to much of the US population that is influenced by talk radio/tv....in depth thinking is absent.

 

[Growler1]

Whats worse than being in the rape of the month club?


Unless your giving instead of receiving...............then strike my comments.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

You need need to move up to an IPHONE and throw your Droid in the dumpster (don't hit Citay with it)

 

[JBS]

Are you REALLY this much of a simpleton? :? :? :? :?

If believing in the freedoms our ancestors fought for to build america and give us freedom from unlawful prosecution and imprisonment then yes I am simple. Taking away the rights of football students accused but not arrested, not charged, not convicted is exactly what you and the rest of this Lynch mob stand for.

Tokyo, although I find myself on your side of some of this, excluding your fire everyone rants, I would like to make a suggestion. Lay off the lynch mob stuff. You say it in every thread, every post, and every response to everything, no matter what folks are talking about. It hurts your argument. Say it once, and people get the point. Say it over and over and over it gets obnoxious.
Take what you said above: What you said was actually brilliant. It was the definitive response. No matter how hard anyone tries to argue with what you said, you won that point. But then you ruined it by throwing in the lynch mob stuff again. These folks aren't evil, like actual lynch mobs were, they're just Griz Fans with different opinions. Just a suggestion.

Actually, all he did was FURTHER undermine his credibility by swinging wildly and missing the point altogether. No one is taking away anyone's "freedoms", this isn't akin to the Japanese internment camps (as he has inferred in other threads). These two guys were fired for a failure of leadership. PERIOD. There doesn't have to be a f***[*] inquisition, trial, conviction, etc. This isn't Matlock or L.A. Law....Engstrom didn't have to wait to ensure that every football player accused of date rape was found guilty before making a final decision. Pflu ran a loose ship, it started sinking on him, and instead of bailing out the ship, O'Day chose to stand beside him claiming there was nothing wrong. THAT is a collosal failure in leadership and that is NOT what we need running the show at the university. So, to equate THAT with some misguided attempt to tie it all to "taking away freedoms our ancestors fought for" is f***[*] laughable at best, and pathetic at worst. No football players "rights" were taken away. THEIR FOOTBALL COACH WAS FIRED. Period. End of story. When the football players are tossed in jail without a jury trial and left to rot on an accusation, call me. Until then, enough of the hyperbole. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://today.duke.edu/2007/09/rhb_lawconf.html

Is this hyperbole? Simpleton thinking? And I'm not talking about putting it on the level of internment camps and lynch mobs, etc.. But this is an actual case that happened with something as insignificant as a college athletic program. I'm not talking about anything that was uncovered during the Marz investigation. If facts were gleaned from that, they should have been fired then, and I think they should have. I also think they should have been fired for the many other conduct issues during their tenure. But they weren't, and were suddenly fired now. No, we don't have a right to an explanation, and they aren't required to give one, but since they didin't we certainly have a right to speculate. It seems Pflu MAY have been fired for showing loyalty to a kid who is more than just a player on his team, it is a kid he knows well and knows his family well. And it seems O'Day MAY have got it for showing loyalty to his coach and friend. The president of Duke admits that his biggest mistake was not showing loyalty to anyone. Hyperbole or not, simple or not, presumption of innocence is fundamental, in even the smallest of situations.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Actually, all he did was FURTHER undermine his credibility by swinging wildly and missing the point altogether. No one is taking away anyone's "freedoms", this isn't akin to the Japanese internment camps (as he has inferred in other threads). These two guys were fired for a failure of leadership. PERIOD. There doesn't have to be a f***[*] inquisition, trial, conviction, etc. This isn't Matlock or L.A. Law....Engstrom didn't have to wait to ensure that every football player accused of date rape was found guilty before making a final decision. Pflu ran a loose ship, it started sinking on him, and instead of bailing out the ship, O'Day chose to stand beside him claiming there was nothing wrong. THAT is a collosal failure in leadership and that is NOT what we need running the show at the university. So, to equate THAT with some misguided attempt to tie it all to "taking away freedoms our ancestors fought for" is f***[*] laughable at best, and pathetic at worst. No football players "rights" were taken away. THEIR FOOTBALL COACH WAS FIRED. Period. End of story. When the football players are tossed in jail without a jury trial and left to rot on an accusation, call me. Until then, enough of the hyperbole. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://today.duke.edu/2007/09/rhb_lawconf.html

Is this hyperbole? Simpleton thinking? And I'm not talking about putting it on the level of internment camps and lynch mobs, etc.. But this is an actual case that happened with something as insignificant as a college athletic program. I'm not talking about anything that was uncovered during the Marz investigation. If facts were gleaned from that, they should have been fired then, and I think they should have. I also think they should have been fired for the many other conduct issues during their tenure. But they weren't, and were suddenly fired now. No, we don't have a right to an explanation, and they aren't required to give one, but since they didin't we certainly have a right to speculate. It seems Pflu MAY have been fired for showing loyalty to a kid who is more than just a player on his team, it is a kid he knows well and knows his family well. And it seems O'Day MAY have got it for showing loyalty to his coach and friend. The president of Duke admits that his biggest mistake was not showing loyalty to anyone. Hyperbole or not, simple or not, presumption of innocence is fundamental, in even the smallest of situations.

Actually yes, it IS hyperbole whenever you compare the firing of someone (rightly or wrongly) to the wrongful prisoning of several hundred thousand people for YEARS simply because of their race.

And none of what you said changes the fact that that they were fired for a failure of leadership.

 

[Tokyogriz]

Using your frame of logic AZ the Engstrom needs to fire himself.

Its hypocritical to accuse Oday or Pflu or "Lack of leadership" When the man at the helm for the last few years and before that still a "leader" at UM takes no responsibility.

Most of the violence, drugs, sexual assaults on UM do not involve UM athletes and you know it. The gal who claimed she was ruffied and attacked was not accosted by athletes but UM students. The Saudi student fiasco completely falls on Royce Engstroms shoulders not the AD or football coach. The list goes on. Again Engstrom is responsible for these actions by UM students just as you say the AD and Coach are for any athlete transgressions or percieved transgressions.

Double standard and hypocricy to fire the AD and Coach then say Engstrom is a great leader. If your lining up to burn people at the stake Engstrom fits your criteria to a T.

 

[AZGrizFan]

Using your frame of logic AZ the Engstrom needs to fire himself.

Its hypocritical to accuse Oday or Pflu or "Lack of leadership" When the man at the helm for the last few years and before that still a "leader" at UM takes no responsibility.

Most of the violence, drugs, sexual assaults on UM do not involve UM athletes and you know it. The gal who claimed she was ruffied and attacked was not accosted by athletes but UM students. The Saudi student fiasco completely falls on Royce Engstroms shoulders not the AD or football coach. The list goes on. Again Engstrom is responsible for these actions by UM students just as you say the AD and Coach are for any athlete transgressions or percieved transgressions.

Double standard and hypocricy to fire the AD and Coach then say Engstrom is a great leader. If your lining up to burn people at the stake Engstrom fits your criteria to a T.

a) I haven't said ONCE that Engstrom is a "great leader"
b) I've said from the beginning he should have done it 3 months ago
c) To say he should "fire himself" is just fucking retarded. Now, if he had any balls he'd resign (and perhaps that's what you meant), but he may very well catch a bullet from the BOR...only time will tell.

 

[Tokyogriz]

c) To say he should "fire himself" is just f***[*] retarded. Now, if he had any balls he'd resign (and perhaps that's what you meant), but he may very well catch a bullet from the BOR...only time will tell.

Engstrom needs to catch that "Your fired" bullet from the BOR NOW!

Leadership starts at the top and this man needs to accept his role in this situation and pay the price. Hes more than happy to make others pay it time for him to pay up as well.

 

[AZGrizFan]

c) To say he should "fire himself" is just f***[*] retarded. Now, if he had any balls he'd resign (and perhaps that's what you meant), but he may very well catch a bullet from the BOR...only time will tell.

Engstrom needs to catch that "Your fired" bullet from the BOR NOW!

Leadership starts at the top and this man needs to accept his role in this situation and pay the price. Hes more than happy to make others pay it time for him to pay up as well.

I fully agree...but, one step at a time.

 

[TxGriz]

I took a lot of history classes. I recall many lessons from the Dreyfus affair to the case of Sacco & Vanzetti, ro Juilius & Ethel Rosenberg, the instructors and professors emphasized the theme of miscarriage of justice under the duress and hysteria of public opinion.

How ironic that in the case of sexually based offenses that public hysteria drives the outcome of events and the University administration is leading the parade. No guilty pleas have been entered, no guilty verdicts handed down by juries - yet we have all of these supposedly convicted criminals infesting the program.

The justice system is being railroaded by the shrill shrieking of the PC media, and has resulted in two of the most unjust firings I have ever seen. For every case like Penn State, there is also another case like the Duke lacrosse players. Amazing that an institution dedicated to shining light & truth ("Lux et Veritas") upon the injustices of America's past is railroading two undeserving individuals through injustices of the present.

 

[tnt]

.........For ever case like Penn State, there is also the case of the Duke lacrosse players. Amazing that and institution dedicated to learning the unjustices of America's past is paving the way for injustices of the future.

What convictions have there been in the Penn State Case????? Yet and AD and Coach were put out of a job.....

 

[TxGriz]

I didn't say there were convictions in the Penn State case. It is the hysteria in the wake of the Penn State ACCUSATIONS that is driving this whole mess.

 

[AZGrizFan]

I didn't say there were convictions in the Penn State case. It is the hysteria in the wake of the Penn State ACCUSATIONS that is driving this whole mess.

So, to follow your logic train, if Penn State had never happened, O'Day and Pflu should still have jobs? :?