a vote for the fans

[citygriz]

i know, there's a school of thought that says, the coaches are the experts and the fans are just the fans, so let the coaches coach while the fans shut up. but i wonder sometimes if the coaches aren't so into the maze--dealing with egos, discipline, scouting, drafting game plans, recruiting--that they fail to see the bigger picture. in the case of this year's griz, literally bigger.

i mean, i've only seen two games in person and one on tv (gonzaga), but it was evident to me as it has been to many on this board that we have three stellar big men in qvale, hasquet and strait, backed up by an emerging player in sharp with a seven footer lurking on the bench, while our guards are average, at best. thus it seemed obvious, go big, concede some potential matchup problems, but play to your strength, and let opponents figure out how to deal with a quality front line that goes 6'11, 6'9 and 6'8, especially in the big sky, where that kind of height combined with talent is almost unheard of. it was also quite obvious that staudacher was a teriffic shooter and solid defender, and must have one other starting spot, while the point guard needed to be one of our more athletic kids, either rundles or elgin-taylor.

in fact, this was the lineup that started against pacific, and did very well until qvale foolishly picked up his second foul. out he went for what i assumed would be a brief rest, maybe until the start of the second half, but in effect, he never seriously returned until last night's game against ewu. and? we kicked butt. if i'm any coach in the big sky, i've gotta be plenty worried about a front line of qvale, hasquet and strait, with staudacher there to launch threes. i think this lineup is the best chance we have to reclaim the season, until a host of athletic reinforcements arrive next year.

but i'm still scratchin' my head--why did it take so long for our staff to arrive at this point? to sit qvale for so many minutes when they'd blown his redshirt year and it was obvious he needed game experience? to see that rundles wasn't getting the job done?

there may be hope for this season yet, but the next time we start our three-guard lineup, that's the white flag for me.

 

[Mavman]

Are there any teams that we would be better off using the three guard lineup for matchups? Or do you think just stay big no matter what the other teams line up looks like? I don't know just asking.
I read on here earlier in the year that some teams caused match up problems for qvale???

By the way I love the big line up.

 

[PlayerRep]

The big lineup will be tested tonight. UNC has a 3-guard lineup, with the tallest guard at 6'1". UNC's other 2 guys are about 6'7". I'm not so sure the big lineup will work tonight. While Hasquett may do well against a smaller defender, sometimes smaller defenders can bother bigger players--unless the bigger player can get close the basketball or post up.

If it's true that UM has trouble with perimeter defense, it doesn't help our perimeter defense to have a big man in place of a guard.

Qvale has improved since the beginning of the year, and that is one thing that has made the big lineup more successful. He was good early on, but is better now.

Qvale's 30 minutes against EWU was presumably his largest number of minutes this year. However, he's had good minutes in a number of games. He's averaging only 1 less minute per game than Sharp. I think they're at 13 and 14 minutes.

We'll also see how well Qvale will be able to guard athletic forwards, as opposed to bigger centers. I'm not saying he can't do it. In fact, I like how he bends his knees when he's guarding someone in transition or pressing. I seem to recall he's had foul problems in a few games. While that may have been merely back luck, it may also be an indication that he has trouble against some types of players.

Whatever works is fine with me. However, it concerns me a bit to have two quality players like Martin and Rundles on the bench. Both can score. Both can make good plays.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Sounds to me like Tinkle wants to commit to the big lineup as often as he can. As for Martin and Rundles coming off the bench, I think they are the best choices for it. I have always felt Martin is perfect 6th man. He can play 1 and 2 and gives alot of spark off the bench. As for Rundles, he too can play either position. As good as he was a Freshman, he has been very inconsistent this year. Not so much statistically, but more mentally. Any Guard will have a few turnovers, but his have been really boneheaded. Also he has taken alot more forced shots this year.

By the looks of things, CET is developing into the PG Tinkle wants for his defense, ball distribution, and penetration. Here is the missoulian's article about the big lineup.

Griz hope big lineup pays off in Greeley
By BOB MESEROLL Missoulian sports editor



Montana men's basketball coach Wayne Tinkle had been toying with the idea of “going big” at various times this season.

Now he's committed to it.

Tinkle started his big lineup of 6-foot-11 freshman Brian Qvale, 6-9 junior Jordan Hasquet and 6-8 senior Andrew Strait for the second straight game Thursday night against Eastern Washington. The trio combined for 48 points, 24 rebounds, seven assists and three blocked shots in the Grizzlies' 80-61 win.


Those three will get the call again Saturday - with guards Ryan Staudacher and Ceylon Elgin-Taylor - when the Griz face Northern Colorado in Greeley.

Qvale took the place of sophomore guard Cam Rundles in the starting five.

“It's not that we were feeling super inadequate in any area, but we just felt with our guard rotations, it would take a little pressure off of them if only two of our four guards were on the floor for extended periods of time,” Tinkle said. “In order to do that, we had to have Brian Qvale really step up his play. He's playing much more confidently here of late and that gives us a great opportunity to start that way.”

The Bears will present challenges for the Grizzlies' defenders with their three-guard lineup. At 6-7, Jabril Banks and Taylor Montgomery are the tallest Bears in the starting five. The guards range from 5-10 Thanasi Panagiotakopoulos to 6-1 Robert Palacios.

“We're going to have to be able to square the ball,” said Tinkle. “We'll be a little bit bigger, so we've got to be able to guard their athletes. We'll probably change some defenses. Our guys have done a pretty good job of focusing on that. We'll be ready to change and go with the smaller lineup if we have to.”

Northern Colorado is coming off a 70-67 home loss to Montana State on Thursday. The Bears are similar to the Griz in that they've been close in a lot of games, but unable to get over the hump.

“They've got all the pieces,” Tinkle said. “They've lost a couple in overtime and a close one last night. They're very much like us. They've been in a lot of ballgames late, they're just trying to figure out a way to close some out.”

Banks still leads the Bears in scoring at 12.8 ppg, but he's averaging just over 8.0 ppg in the last four games.

“Teams are used to him a little bit now,” Tinkle said. “They know what he can do. He's very good around the basket and very athletic, so we have to be physical with him and keep him off the glass, really make him work for everything he gets.”

Panagiotakopoulos has taken up the slack by averaging 14.0 ppg in the last four outings while freshman guard Devon Beitzel has been adding 12.1 ppg.

“Panagiotakopoulos has really come into his own and added some stability,” Tinkle said.

Senior Sean Taibi has been fighting injuries most of the season, but is a deadly 3-point threat when he's healthy. And swing man Jefferson Mason is a weapon off the bench.

“They have a lot of nice pieces,” Tinkle said. “When they are all on page with each other they're pretty darn good.”

The Griz are hoping to carry some momentum from their win over Eastern to Greeley.

“I think the most important thing is we set the tone with our practice on Tuesday and put the scouting report in and our guys followed the scouting report to a T,” Tinkle said. “We carried that energy and focus from practice to the game and it equated to a great win. The biggest thing is we get to take a deep breath and relax a little bit. Our guys now know this is the formula. It should be fresh in our guys' minds what it takes to be at our best and what the result is when we put it all together.”

NOTES: With his 8-for-8 performance from the field Thursday night, Strait moved from 16th to 11th in the nation in field goal percentage (64.3). ... Senior guard Matt Martin's two treys Thursday moved him past Jeremy Lake (191 from 1991-95) on the school's career 3-point list with 192. No. 2 on the list is David Bell with 196 from 1995-96. Kevin Criswell is the all-time leader with 218 from 2002-06. ... Hasquet is just 36 points shy of 1,000 for his career while Martin needs 89 to reach the plateau.

 

[BigSkyBears]

Should be a good game. I'll be there!

 

[WashGriz]

playerrep says.

Whatever works is fine with me. However, it concerns me a bit to have two quality players like Martin and Rundles on the bench. Both can score. Both can make good plays.

Love the big line up..I think it is here to stay.

Regarding two quality players on the bench..Rundles and Martin..
You might find that tonights game they get more of a chance to play
if Stads ankle sprain is bothering him still.

The Real key will be Jordo and Andrew...there game has been
picking up..it falls on their shoulders. QVale is still is freshman ..He will still make some feshman mistakes...no pressure on QVale
just clog up the middle rebound and swat some shots.

tough game tonight !!

 

[Zirg]

While Qvale has always been a great defender- great height, long arms, decent feet and eagerness to block shots, his offense is light-years behind. The EWU game was the first time he's shown any real offensive touch-he even nailed a couple jumpers for the first time I can recall. I think his offense needed a LOT of work and refinement and it is now finally up to par enough to warrant more minutes. He was definately a liability on offense the first part of the year (he's missed dunks and is a horrible free-throw shooter and ball-handler),and it is still very unrefined but he has immense potential. I don't think giving him the kind of minutes early on that he's got lately would have been wise,maybe even shook his confidence,so I think Tinks has used him wisely.

Also Rundles sophomore-slump could not have been really predicted. He earned his minutes last year, and now his erratic play has prompted less PT this year. I still think he is a very vital cog, and hopefully now that he knows dumb plays with get him benched, he will be more focussed and disciplined. Who else can make the no-look behind his head pass for an easy bucket like he did against EWU? He also had assists on 3 straight Griz possessions and got DeLeon off his game. We're getting more quality play from him in his limited minutes,so I think Tinks strategies are really starting to pay off.

 

[citygriz]

if qvale needs to develop his offensive game, what better coach than wayne tinkle? what better coach to evaluate that talent and decide whether to play him or redshirt him?

halfway through the season, the three-guard lineup simply hasn't worked; we do not have the guard play we had two years ago, or maybe even last year with bryan ellis. i see no choice at this point but to go big, and hope qvale is up to the challenge.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a three-guard offense. It just depends on which three guards you're talking about.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

There's nothing inherently wrong with a three-guard offense. It just depends on which three guards you're talking about.

That is the credited response; or Darn Tootin'!

 

[Zirg]

if qvale needs to develop his offensive game, what better coach than wayne tinkle? what better coach to evaluate that talent and decide whether to play him or redshirt him?

halfway through the season, the three-guard lineup simply hasn't worked; we do not have the guard play we had two years ago, or maybe even last year with bryan ellis. i see no choice at this point but to go big, and hope qvale is up to the challenge.

I agree. I think Tinks has and will help Kvale's game a lot. 7' footers are rarely graceful naturally (see Vanderjagt or Don Carter). it usually takes a kid with Kvale's build a few years to adjust to being so tall. He has probably only been 6'11" (or whatever he is) ,for what a year or 2? He may still be growing even. I remember Randy Breuer playing as a freshman for the Minnesota Gophers, and wow, was he awkward. He was like 7'3" and 200 pounds or so as a frosh. just a beanpole. He eventually honed his game enough to play 681 NBA games. But I saw him become more and more graceful and comfortable in his body and filled out (a little) and became a dominant force (at the college level anyways). I am not saying Kvale is THAT good. Just the way he is adjusting to his body/frame hopefully he can follow the same kind of progression and we mave have a real special player.

This point may give more impetus for red-shirting him, but you can't blame Tinks for not wanting him to play this year, knowing he can have a significant role. Kvale is a special player. With Vanderjagt being a bust, and Kvale already better than Sharp in almost every area besides rebounding, forced Tinks hand. We already HAD to red-shirt McGillis and the EWU transfer. Hurley was a no-brainer. You really wanted the Griz to red-shirt 5!! players?

Tinks thought he could be a significant contributor this year, and he was right. If the Griz had lost the last 2 games where Qvale had a big impact and we were 1-6 in conference, we'd all be screaming about leaving all that talent on the bench. I don't think this is a 'wasted" year no matter what happens from now in. He is one of the best big-men in the conference already.

I do think a team like Sac State is a team where we may need to go 3-guard. If they are (like they always seem to be) predominately quick guards and running and gunning and jump-shooters (chuckers), Qvale's defensive skills don't come into play as much. The key to deciding whether we decide to play OUR best 5 or match-up against a particular team is whether Qvale can be affective offensively against a smaller line-up. Thus far his skills are not polished enough to exploit smaller guys. A guy like Strait flourishes against a smaller guy guarding him,because he has a good variety of moves and can shoot his little jump-shot at will against someone that isn't taller than him. He had senior-like offensive moves as a frosh. He's always been smooth around the hole. Qvale is a very different kind of player. His offenseive will improve and he should become an offensive weapon and probably an offensive force in time, but right now his offense is a "work in progress".

Something to consider before you jump the shark on the Griz just because Tinks makes those kind of tough decisions.

 

[PlayerRep]

I don't view Vanderjagt as a bust. He is not uncoordinated or awkward. He is relatively smooth and a good shooter. I think he needs more strength and an opportunity. Having a foot or leg injury this summer and into the fall didn't help him get a good start for this season. In his very limited play this year, I think he has looked good.

 

[Zirg]

I don't view Vanderjagt as a bust. He is not uncoordinated or awkward. He is relatively smooth and a good shooter. I think he needs more strength and an opportunity. Having a foot or leg injury this summer and into the fall didn't help him get a good start for this season. In his very limited play this year, I think he has looked good.

LOL I am well aware that you will never utter a negative word about any player. That is why the rest of us are here, for some reality and to point out the obvious. You probably think Gus Chase wasn't a bust too. Vanderjagt has had 2 years to put on weight and get strong. That kid has probably never been in a gym. He looks the exact same as when he arrived.

Vanderjagt is awful, period! It's a lot easier to analyze guys objectively that you've never met and aren't worried about offending, which you are at the opposite spectrum of.

"I think he has looked good" made me laugh hysterically...for real.

 

[GrizWhiz]

I don't view Vanderjagt as a bust. He is not uncoordinated or awkward. He is relatively smooth and a good shooter. I think he needs more strength and an opportunity. Having a foot or leg injury this summer and into the fall didn't help him get a good start for this season. In his very limited play this year, I think he has looked good.

LOL I am well aware that you will never utter a negative word about any player. That is why the rest of us are here, for some reality and to point out the obvious. You probably think Gus Chase wasn't a bust too. Vanderjagt has had 2 years to put on weight and get strong. That kid has probably never been in a gym. He looks the exact same as when he arrived.

Vanderjagt is awful, period! It's a lot easier to analyze guys objectively that you've never met and aren't worried about offending, which you are at the opposite spectrum of.

"I think he has looked good" made me laugh hysterically...for real.

Zirg, I think it is way too early to close the book on Vanderjagt. He is a true sophomore who has had a significant injury. The guy has a thin frame. A million hours on weights is not going to stretch his shoulders or otherwise alter his bone structure. Not everyone is going to develop into Hulk Hogan nor should they in order to play basketball. Matt Dlouhy is a good example of this. Vanderjagt has a good touch from the outside. He also has good rebounding instincts. I can see him developing into a nice backup for Qvale next year when Strait is gone. This will enable the Griz to avoid playing either Sharp or Hasquet at the 5 position. :twocents: