A good preview of UM's assessment of programs

[bgbigdog]

So how do you help mitigate losing 25% of your class? Is it time to start tightening the admission standards? & where does the 20% number come from?

 

[first11]

Staffing required to recruit, prepare financial aid, and retain students has been cut to the bone. Just ask anyone you know working in “the lodge” the morale is lousy due to attrition either forced or voluntary. Translated, the work load at minimum remains the same, expectations rising with fewer personnel to follow through.

Many like to beat up on RE, but his predecessor George built and bonded on the edge of a significant demographic and cultural shift. Creating a university environment built for the last century. The debt of brick and mortar weighs heavily yet our political assignees (regents) simply signed off.

Indeed Seth B is doing what he can but whether too much/little it may too late. Our elected folks in Helena need to recognize and do what is needed to sustain Montana’s flagship university before it is too late.

 

[kemajic]

A degree of acrimony between the president's office and the pampered, entitled faculty is not necessarily bad and in fact, when it's so obvious change is needed, essential. It's not unlike the hospital administrator trying to run a business while managing doctors. Faculty menbers or doctors would be the worst choices to make decisions for the good of the enterprise. This was one of Engstrom's worst failings; he was insufficiently distanced from the faculty and incapable of making unpopular change decisions based on facts. This Bowman character's whining paints a pretty accurate picture of the faculty as the victim when they are as much to blame as any. This is a great start for Bodnar; just what I expected from him.

it seems like you are making a cartoon character out of people you don't know and situations with which you are unfamiliar. nothing new there, just kem's entitled opinions.

so your premise is that acrimony is "essential" when change needs to be made in academia? care to back that up with any examples? you can't, because you are clueless about universities and how they operate, and are just pulling up random whines to make yourself feel superior. and no, i'm not saying faculty are great, etc... in fact, a lot are entitled whiny people who view themselves as above it all. they get the press and attention because they are loud. however, most are actually very intelligent people, working within the system they are given, which in academia includes "shared governance". gawd, imagine if you and your ilk - you'd probably get rid of basic research and replace it with specific-goal driven research, despite the fact that most advances come from basic research. hah, much of what we know about genetics has been gleaned from worms and flies, with the goal of the research that brought our knowledge being to figure out how worms and flies work. i am reminded of the comment a nobel prize winner i know made. his prize was for the human genome project. he said he took the lead on the project because it gave him the tools he needed to do what he really wanted to do - learn about c. elegans. a worm.

anyway, i'm getting off-tangent. care to point out successful university changes that included a significant amount of acrimony between faculty and administration?

??????????? notice something ?????????????

How do you get from "a degree of acrimony" to "a significant amount of acrimony"? Bias spin to defend the swamp is the only way. Quite the tool. Reacting instead of reading. And I am not quite the academic novice you suggest.

 

[argh!]

A degree of acrimony between the president's office and the pampered, entitled faculty is not necessarily bad and in fact, when it's so obvious change is needed, essential. It's not unlike the hospital administrator trying to run a business while managing doctors. Faculty menbers or doctors would be the worst choices to make decisions for the good of the enterprise. This was one of Engstrom's worst failings; he was insufficiently distanced from the faculty and incapable of making unpopular change decisions based on facts. This Bowman character's whining paints a pretty accurate picture of the faculty as the victim when they are as much to blame as any. This is a great start for Bodnar; just what I expected from him.

it seems like you are making a cartoon character out of people you don't know and situations with which you are unfamiliar. nothing new there, just kem's entitled opinions.

so your premise is that acrimony is "essential" when change needs to be made in academia? care to back that up with any examples? you can't, because you are clueless about universities and how they operate, and are just pulling up random whines to make yourself feel superior. and no, i'm not saying faculty are great, etc... in fact, a lot are entitled whiny people who view themselves as above it all. they get the press and attention because they are loud. however, most are actually very intelligent people, working within the system they are given, which in academia includes "shared governance". gawd, imagine if you and your ilk - you'd probably get rid of basic research and replace it with specific-goal driven research, despite the fact that most advances come from basic research. hah, much of what we know about genetics has been gleaned from worms and flies, with the goal of the research that brought our knowledge being to figure out how worms and flies work. i am reminded of the comment a nobel prize winner i know made. his prize was for the human genome project. he said he took the lead on the project because it gave him the tools he needed to do what he really wanted to do - learn about c. elegans. a worm.

anyway, i'm getting off-tangent. care to point out successful university changes that included a significant amount of acrimony between faculty and administration?

??????????? notice something ?????????????

How do you get from "a degree of acrimony" to "a significant amount of acrimony"? Bias spin to defend the swamp is the only way. Quite the tool. Reacting instead of reading. And I am not quite the academic novice you suggest.

"she thinks she's the passionate one"

 

[argh!]

A degree of acrimony between the president's office and the pampered, entitled faculty is not necessarily bad and in fact, when it's so obvious change is needed, essential. It's not unlike the hospital administrator trying to run a business while managing doctors. Faculty menbers or doctors would be the worst choices to make decisions for the good of the enterprise. This was one of Engstrom's worst failings; he was insufficiently distanced from the faculty and incapable of making unpopular change decisions based on facts. This Bowman character's whining paints a pretty accurate picture of the faculty as the victim when they are as much to blame as any. This is a great start for Bodnar; just what I expected from him.

it seems like you are making a cartoon character out of people you don't know and situations with which you are unfamiliar. nothing new there, just kem's entitled opinions.

so your premise is that acrimony is "essential" when change needs to be made in academia? care to back that up with any examples? you can't, because you are clueless about universities and how they operate, and are just pulling up random whines to make yourself feel superior. and no, i'm not saying faculty are great, etc... in fact, a lot are entitled whiny people who view themselves as above it all. they get the press and attention because they are loud. however, most are actually very intelligent people, working within the system they are given, which in academia includes "shared governance". gawd, imagine if you and your ilk - you'd probably get rid of basic research and replace it with specific-goal driven research, despite the fact that most advances come from basic research. hah, much of what we know about genetics has been gleaned from worms and flies, with the goal of the research that brought our knowledge being to figure out how worms and flies work. i am reminded of the comment a nobel prize winner i know made. his prize was for the human genome project. he said he took the lead on the project because it gave him the tools he needed to do what he really wanted to do - learn about c. elegans. a worm.

anyway, i'm getting off-tangent. care to point out successful university changes that included a significant amount of acrimony between faculty and administration?

??????????? notice something ?????????????

How do you get from "a degree of acrimony" to "a significant amount of acrimony"? Bias spin to defend the swamp is the only way. Quite the tool. Reacting instead of reading. And I am not quite the academic novice you suggest.

well, i'm obviously going off my interpretation of your 'degree of acrimony' label, considering it at a level worthy of notice. and if it is worthy of notice by you (and the missoulian), it is significant.

not sure how i can explain the obvious to you. maybe we should talk about the 1970 special deluxe sedan? you'd probably be better prepared to discuss that than a modern university.

 

[SoldierGriz]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

Not as long as the psuedoscientists and their self-plagarized bullshit peer-reviewed journal studies affords them the "privilege" of being recognized as a "research institution" will they be anymore than as Huberty said their research ought to be relegated to master's thesis work. Their last statistically significant study was digging through a latrine in Lolo. Everything else has been like Argh! and is nothing but a replication study. Not a single original thought. Just attempt to replicate it or be a critic. Argh! wants this school to replicate others. That's the main fucking problem here. Juvenile research.

 

[argh!]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

Not as long as the psuedoscientists and their self-plagarized bullshit peer-reviewed journal studies affords them the "privilege" of being recognized as a "research institution" will they be anymore than as Huberty said their research ought to be relegated to master's thesis work. Their last statistically significant study was digging through a latrine in Lolo. Everything else has been like Argh! and is nothing but a replication study. Not a single original thought. Just attempt to replicate it or be a critic. Argh! wants this school to replicate others. That's the main f***[*] problem here. Juvenile research.

ha, that reminds me of what a pioneering scientist told me once - 'don't worry about someone stealing your ideas. people want the same thing over and over. if you have a good, new idea, you are going to have to shove it down their throats to get them to accept it.'

running a university 'like a business' is a trite, old, turn of the century idea that somehow manages to keep attracting fools to try it.

 

[kemajic]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

Not as long as the psuedoscientists and their self-plagarized bullshit peer-reviewed journal studies affords them the "privilege" of being recognized as a "research institution" will they be anymore than as Huberty said their research ought to be relegated to master's thesis work. Their last statistically significant study was digging through a latrine in Lolo. Everything else has been like Argh! and is nothing but a replication study. Not a single original thought. Just attempt to replicate it or be a critic. Argh! wants this school to replicate others. That's the main f***[*] problem here. Juvenile research.

ha, that reminds me of what a pioneering scientist told me once - 'don't worry about someone stealing your ideas. people want the same thing over and over. if you have a good, new idea, you are going to have to shove it down their throats to get them to accept it.'

running a university 'like a business' is a trite, old, turn of the century idea that somehow manages to keep attracting fools to try it.

The fools are the ones that hold onto the same methods when the enterprise is tanking. We know it's the right way to run things. Not working? Don't challenge me with facts. It would be unfair to take action and could disrupt our comfort zone.

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

Not as long as the psuedoscientists and their self-plagarized bullshit peer-reviewed journal studies affords them the "privilege" of being recognized as a "research institution" will they be anymore than as Huberty said their research ought to be relegated to master's thesis work. Their last statistically significant study was digging through a latrine in Lolo. Everything else has been like Argh! and is nothing but a replication study. Not a single original thought. Just attempt to replicate it or be a critic. Argh! wants this school to replicate others. That's the main f***[*] problem here. Juvenile research.

ha, that reminds me of what a pioneering scientist told me once - 'don't worry about someone stealing your ideas. people want the same thing over and over. if you have a good, new idea, you are going to have to shove it down their throats to get them to accept it.'

running a university 'like a business' is a trite, old, turn of the century idea that somehow manages to keep attracting fools to try it.

The fools are the ones that hold onto the same methods when the enterprise is tanking. We know it's the right way to run things. Not working? Don't challenge me with facts. It would be unfair to take action and could disrupt our comfort zone.

It has just occurred to me after reading the last bit that this school right now is similar to a bunch of high school English teachers. So caught up in form, such as critiquing Bodnar's vitae, that they can't read the story. Good schools have technical writers--you know secretaries--who assist those creative minds with form so they can continue to produce substance. Don't forget to cross your i's and dot your t's...double check it...lol.

 

[putter]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

 

[argh!]

^^^...because the University of Montana is a textbook "modern" university...

Bondar will take her there.

Not as long as the psuedoscientists and their self-plagarized bullshit peer-reviewed journal studies affords them the "privilege" of being recognized as a "research institution" will they be anymore than as Huberty said their research ought to be relegated to master's thesis work. Their last statistically significant study was digging through a latrine in Lolo. Everything else has been like Argh! and is nothing but a replication study. Not a single original thought. Just attempt to replicate it or be a critic. Argh! wants this school to replicate others. That's the main f***[*] problem here. Juvenile research.

ha, that reminds me of what a pioneering scientist told me once - 'don't worry about someone stealing your ideas. people want the same thing over and over. if you have a good, new idea, you are going to have to shove it down their throats to get them to accept it.'

running a university 'like a business' is a trite, old, turn of the century idea that somehow manages to keep attracting fools to try it.

The fools are the ones that hold onto the same methods when the enterprise is tanking. We know it's the right way to run things. Not working? Don't challenge me with facts. It would be unfair to take action and could disrupt our comfort zone.

i agree, holding on to the same methods when things are tanking is dumb. so is trying out ideas that have repeatedly failed in the long-run, like treating universities like businesses instead of government-funded institutions made available at affordable rates to the populace. indeed, one of the primary reasons people don't go to school and/or drop out is because it is no longer affordable, even when training for a 'desired' position like an md (the debt graduates have for these degrees is mind-blowing). in my view probably the two biggest culprits are tenure, which is actually slowly, very very slowly, on the decline, and an unwillingness of state governments to fund universities at previous levels. a college education has become a for-the-rich thing, and i'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that you vote for legislators, etc, who don't want to fund u.m. at the levels that benefited you so very much. right?

 

[CatGrad-UMGradStu]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

I believe the entire FTE count is about 9100 students. Since the next scheduled regents meeting does not convene until May (after high school seniors have already decided where they will spend their following fall) one can surmise the free fall continues. I'm thinking of the Dire Staits line something to the effect "...get your money for nothing..." might work for a couple more years for some of the...

 

[argh!]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

i've written plenty on my disdain for tenure, even though i have been given it at two universities. however, it exists and the street needs to go both ways. if bodnar does too much bypassing the faculty in his decision making, and/or takes the 'my way or the highway' approach, what will happen is that the good professors, i.e. those who can generate grant money, will leave, and um will be stuck with the unhappy campers who can't. good luck rebuilding your university with them.

also, i'd say about 66% of the professors i know work 50 - 70 hours a week. the other 34% work 10 - 15 hours a week. blanket statements about faculty, i.e. they are all lazy entitled etc etc, paint the majority in an inaccurate light.

 

[kemajic]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

Yes, and the denial that there are similarities to a failing business is obvious in this thread. Argh. Keep producing a high cost product that is decreasing in demand. Be surprised when customers aren't buying. Expect government subsidies that aren't going to come. Resist reducing cost and changing product offerings to increase demand. This is what Bodnar has to deal with in a nutshell. Yes, a path to success is cloudy, but obstacles in the way of new avenues are indefensible.

 

[argh!]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

Yes, and the denial that there are similarities to a failing business is obvious in this thread. Argh. Keep producing a high cost product that is decreasing in demand. Be surprised when customers aren't buying. Expect government subsidies that aren't going to come. Resist reducing cost and changing product offerings to increase demand. This is what Bodnar has to deal with in a nutshell. Yes, a path to success is cloudy, but obstacles in the way of new avenues are indefensible.

who is denying there are similarities? or are you making stuff up again?

 

[AZGrizFan]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

i've written plenty on my disdain for tenure, even though i have been given it at two universities. however, it exists and the street needs to go both ways. if bodnar does too much bypassing the faculty in his decision making, and/or takes the 'my way or the highway' approach, what will happen is that the good professors, i.e. those who can generate grant money, will leave, and um will be stuck with the unhappy campers who can't. good luck rebuilding your university with them.

also, i'd say about 66% of the professors i know work 50 - 70 hours a week. the other 34% work 10 - 15 hours a week. blanket statements about faculty, i.e. they are all lazy entitled etc etc, paint the majority in an inaccurate light.

Yeah, what we really need is the inmates running the asylum.

 

[argh!]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

i've written plenty on my disdain for tenure, even though i have been given it at two universities. however, it exists and the street needs to go both ways. if bodnar does too much bypassing the faculty in his decision making, and/or takes the 'my way or the highway' approach, what will happen is that the good professors, i.e. those who can generate grant money, will leave, and um will be stuck with the unhappy campers who can't. good luck rebuilding your university with them.

also, i'd say about 66% of the professors i know work 50 - 70 hours a week. the other 34% work 10 - 15 hours a week. blanket statements about faculty, i.e. they are all lazy entitled etc etc, paint the majority in an inaccurate light.

Yeah, what we really need is the inmates running the asylum.

don't get upset az, that's just how it goes.

 

[argh!]

Yes, and the denial that there are similarities to a failing business is obvious in this thread. Argh. Keep producing a high cost product that is decreasing in demand. Be surprised when customers aren't buying. Expect government subsidies that aren't going to come. Resist reducing cost and changing product offerings to increase demand. This is what Bodnar has to deal with in a nutshell. Yes, a path to success is cloudy, but obstacles in the way of new avenues are indefensible.

maybe i'm getting older and more senile, but i can't quite figure out what the hell you are trying to say with this missive. i guess it makes you feel better to accuse university professors of being dumb? assuming you are as old and senile as your posts indicate, you are probably still alive because of the discoveries of university professors.

oh, i forgot tired. lacking in energy to help the university you claim to love, as long as the football coach is acceptable to you.

 

[AZGrizFan]

All I know is that undergrad enrollment is around a whopping 9000 students. Kids are not looking at the U as a great place to go to college. Always many reasons but if I was a faculty member I would be very eager to work with Bodner to right the ship. Enrollment keeps dropping and these “entitled” professors will be applying to community colleges as their positions get cut.

i've written plenty on my disdain for tenure, even though i have been given it at two universities. however, it exists and the street needs to go both ways. if bodnar does too much bypassing the faculty in his decision making, and/or takes the 'my way or the highway' approach, what will happen is that the good professors, i.e. those who can generate grant money, will leave, and um will be stuck with the unhappy campers who can't. good luck rebuilding your university with them.

also, i'd say about 66% of the professors i know work 50 - 70 hours a week. the other 34% work 10 - 15 hours a week. blanket statements about faculty, i.e. they are all lazy entitled etc etc, paint the majority in an inaccurate light.

Yeah, what we really need is the inmates running the asylum.

don't get upset az, that's just how it goes.

See that’s part of your problem...you think “that’s how it goes” when it most decidedly is NOT how it goes in any successful real world application.