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3 Griz Arrested

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UMGriz75 said:
LongTimeCatFan said:
UMGriz75 said:
LongTimeCatFan said:
Actually the intent makes Kaarma a mutual combatant and you can't be the aggressor and claim self defense.
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The teen was unarmed.
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He didn't know that, but he couldn't see him either so he couldn't determine jeopardy. Lots of holes in Kaarma's self defense case.
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It was a better case than what has been presented by people like you on this thread as to why the homeowner felt threatened and needed $16,000 in counselling. Kaarma got prison. Ironically, the deceased in the Kaarma case not only had criminal intent, had actually committed the crime several times -- crimes the State did little to resolve -- but was absolved of it by the State's insistence that Kaarma, by leaving his premises open, enticed the deceased.

The criminal intent in this case was missing entirely and the State took an entirely opposite approach to leaving property overtly open to the public; that anyone similarly enticed, with no criminal intent, deserved what they got, indeed, needed to be crushed financially, humiliated publicly, and branded as criminals for all time.

Because, people who do not intend to do harm deserve to have the book thrown at them; kids who do commit crimes ... not so much.

It is a nice lesson, best suited to law review articles written by legal scholars who understand such fine nuances, not as well understood by young people getting out of the rain. Thanks for playing.
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Indeed, thanks for playing. I've enjoyed the discourse.
 
This is the main reason Kaarma did not get away with it.


Neighbor Jessica Bracey said she had a conversation with Markus Kaarma’s girlfriend, Janelle Pflager, days before the April 27 shooting. She told jurors she is certain Pflager used the word “bait” in describing plans to catch intruders after their garage had been burglarized April 17.

Kaarma’s next-door neighbor testified Tuesday that on the night of the first burglary, he heard Pflager threaten the people who answered his stolen cellphone. “If you return to our garage you could be killed,” Terry Fink said Pflager told them. “It was jaw dropping to me at the time.”

And abcfoxmontana reports:

Robin Rosenquist, who lives across the street from Kaarma and Pflager, told jurors about a conversation with Pflager shortly before Diren Dede’s death. Pflager told Rosenquist about a prior robbery, her frustration with police, but also the expectation that the burglars would come back because they planned to “bait” them.

Later, witness Jessica Bracey, whose yard is adjacent to Kaarma’s, recalls a similar conversation with Pflager, who told her about the burglary, told her “guns are loaded” and they planned to bait the burglars back into their garage and catch them on the baby monitors.
 
NDSUSR said:
This is the main reason Kaarma did not get away with it.
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He did not "get away with" defending his own property, because

1) he allowed his property to be open to the "public," and
2) multiple criminal assaults on his property, in "occupied premises" did NOT justify lethal reactions.

Here:

1) allowing property to be open to the public
2) did not justify the public in avoiding the rain.

That is why one is in prison, and the others are up for $60,000 in penalties, with their reputations ruined for life.

In one case, the victim did not "get away with" defending against repeated criminal assaults, in the other case, the victim got $16,500 in counseling fees and excessive bail bonds and attorney fees against "aggressors" with no demonstrable criminal intent at all.
 
UMGriz75 said:
NDSUSR said:
This is the main reason Kaarma did not get away with it.
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He did not "get away with" defending his own property, because

1) he allowed his property to be open to the "public," and
2) multiple criminal assaults on his property, in "occupied premises" did NOT justify lethal reactions.

Here:

1) allowing property to be open to the public
2) did not justify the public in avoiding the rain.

That is why one is in prison, and the others are up for $60,000 in penalties, with their reputations ruined for life.

In one case, the victim did not "get away with" defending against repeated criminal assaults, in the other case, the victim got $16,500 in counseling fees and excessive bail bonds and attorney fees against "aggressors" with no demonstrable criminal intent at all.
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Here

http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/12/trial-underway-of-homeowner-accused-of-baiting-intruder/
 
LongTimeCatFan said:
NDSUSR said:
Did you even look at the title of the link YOU posted?

BAITING.
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Yeah, I know. I was directing 75 to read the expert analysis of Andrew Branca, foremost authority of self defense law.
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The UM students "threatened" no one. "Self defense" law did not play a role where UM students wanted to get out of the rain, in an unmarked construction site. Keep churning.
 
UMGriz75 said:
LongTimeCatFan said:
NDSUSR said:
Did you even look at the title of the link YOU posted?

BAITING.
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Yeah, I know. I was directing 75 to read the expert analysis of Andrew Branca, foremost authority of self defense law.
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The UM students "threatened" no one. "Self defense" law did not play a role where UM students wanted to get out of the rain, in an unmarked construction site. Keep churning.
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I'm aware. The previous hypotheticals that I introduced is where that is applicable.

I directed you to that link because I think you are misreading the causation of the jury not accepting his self defense case. Branca spelled it out pretty clearly.
 
I did some stupid things during football season when I played. Got caught. Coaches made me sprint until I puked, then run the field in full pads, dropping every 10 yards, until I puked again. Lesson learned. It's too bad our society has become so over sensitive.
 
griz=fun said:
I did some stupid things during football season when I played. Got caught. Coaches made me sprint until I puked, then run the field in full pads, dropping every 10 yards, until I puked again. Lesson learned. It's too bad our society has become so over sensitive.
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yep, it is the PUSSY society :-|
 
These five young people got the shaft!
The young girl is lucky to have a lawyer for a father but she had the worst of a bad situation. Juctice? Are you kidding me?
The young man charged with stealing a pack of beer? In truth he alone drank it? Must be a Joke. Right?

Three Griz football players? Sock it to them. "We all know football players are thugs". Missoulian news paper. Pat Williams. Engstrom. Some Missoula police. (msu fans) Missoula city council. Florio & Haake. Oh hell this list goes on and on...If you don't agree then U are on it!

My duty in this whole mess is to make sure we keep this going way beyond 60 pages.

Retraction on my part. I do like Growler/Atlanta and must place a correction to any harm I may have caused him while he has been on probation/jail.
 
LongTimeCatFan said:
I directed you to that link because I think you are misreading the causation of the jury not accepting his self defense case. Branca spelled it out pretty clearly.
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I knew the judge, the attorneys on both sides of the Kaarma case, and spoke to some of the jurors afterward. The "facts" are that the State had a different take on "trespassing" in that case, and the net result did NOT support what many posters here claimed that the homeowner was entitled to do, nor did it support anything about "innocent" trespass, ie without criminal intent. Let it go.
 
signedbewildered said:
I vote to lock this thread. It's over, we are going in circles over something only very remotely related. How about some football?
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Come on man. We haven't had any time for the righteous indignation, I told you so's, I knew this was a crock, travesty of justice and so forth to be said. Oh yeah, that's already been said. Good idea. Games tomorrow. Good call.
 
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