3 Griz Arrested

[LongTimeCatFan]

You suck as a lawyer.

Read "Disparity of Force"

Kaarma couldn't use that to satisfy imminence because it was one kid.

This would have been 4:1

Doesn't matter if they are in a separate building and not coming into his building. Just no threat. Read the case law.

If he goes out to confront them, which he has every right to do, and they make a move that he interprets as a threat, then he can shoot them in self defense. To be more specific, they would have to be within 21' of him (Tueller) to satisfy Jeopardy of the AOJ of imminence(only because you said he was able to determine they were unarmed, if unable then no distance required). But still the disparity of force would allow him to use deadly force.

Read the book

Read the case law. The book is not a primary source. Note that some MT prosecutors have said that the doctrine applies only in the building, not outside of it. So going out to confront someone can also get the homeowner into trouble.

The book has plenty of case law in it.

We're not talking about castle doctrine are we? Because that is simply the absence of a duty to retreat from attack. Castle and "Stand your Ground" are the same thing.

The guys were on his property so he can confront them. He has a right to be there, they don't. If they make any moves that he interprets as threatening, he can shoot even though they are unarmed due to the disparity of force.

IF, they had entered the dwelling, he gets something else called the presumption of reasonableness. And that means he can assume they mean to do him harm, which is what most people think of when they talk about Castle Doctrine, but the two are separate and distinct.

BTW, I think he did the right thing by calling the police. Had they entered his dwelling, they would have left him no choice IMO.

 

[EverettGriz]

mcg, we're in full agreement. I see trespass as well.

I just can't fathom why anyone would try to justify their actions (e.g. "Well, it was raining!!"). f*** that. They broke the law. They KNEW they were breaking the law. For anyone, cough, cough, to suggest anything other than that is just sad, really.

Please point out the specific posts in which someone said or suggested they weren't breaking a law. I would be curious to see who was saying that and why. If you can't cite these posts, then please stop spewing that lie.

Excellent. So we agree these idiots knowingly and purposely broke a law? That they knowingly and purposely entered someone else's private residence. At 2:30 am.


Super. Can we all agree, then, that they are stupid morons who deserve significant punishment (outside the program and within), and that the University of Montana deserves better from those to whom they provide full ride athletic scholarships? Thanks.

If they end up with a misdemeanor, then UM should apply it's athletic code, which I believes says there would be a one-game suspension if they haven't had other problems in the past 2 or so years. This is what happened iwth Gamboa. Stitt can, of course, do what he wants. I assume you are not suggesting that UM should not comply with its athletic code.

Oh, I'm all for the COC. And I believe it allows latitude as you suggest. My latitude would be a conversation along the lines of, "it's clear you put yourselves ahead of our program and university. So be it. You have a year to think about the way you let this team, program and university down. If you're not a senior, I'll see you tomorrow in the weight room. If you are a senior, you can leave your playbook over there on my table".

 

[CDAGRIZ]

MCG's posts re: what law did they break are on point here. None of us know yet. They might have trespassed, or they might be running an international illegal sawzall ring with RICO implications. I agree with what almost everyone is saying, and I think a lot of you are talking past one another.

 

[Ursa Major]

I just woke up from a nap but all I know is that those punks are lucky they didn't cut across my lawn at 2:30 AM. Sorry, just trying to fit in.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I just woke up from a nap but all I know is that those punks are lucky they didn't cut across my lawn at 2:30 AM. Sorry, just trying to fit in.

You should probably take a look outside.

 

[doc3kgt]

It will be interesting to see what Stitt does. Canning a guy like KVA is no small thing..

 

[yellowstone60]

https://reptiledysfunction.wordpress.com/2015/11/02/bad-news-griz/

Bad News Griz
Posted on November 2, 2015 by William Skink
by William Skink

Once again the University of Montana is catching negative headlines. Last week it was a piece in the Indy about the UM enrollment decline being worse than reported. This week, it’s felony burglary charges for several Griz football players.

I don’t recommend that previous link, because it’s the Missoulian. The Kaiman did a much better job reporting what allegedly happened:

The homeowner, who wished to stay anonymous, said a few rooms on the first and second floor aren’t connected to the main house where he and his family live.

His wife and three daughters were home when, according to charging documents, Schmaing, Counts, Van Ackeren and Tomlinson allegedly entered the addition with a ladder. He and his wife said they could hear the assailants walking around and talking upstairs and could see them through a front window, but the homeowners stayed quiet.

“One of the guys was standing in the doorway and he was as big as the door, so I thought it wasn’t in my best interests to confront him,” he said.

The home owner said he heard the four students talked about taking something, but the homeowner said nothing was stolen or damaged.

Reep arrived just before police arrived and the homeowner said he didn’t think she knew she was picking up the guys from a burglary.

“I hope they’re not guilty of much more than being extraordinarily stupid,” he said.

Does this incident warrant a burglary charge? I don’t know. Regardless, the behavior exhibits a continued culture of entitlement from the UM football program that’s troubling. Going places without consent just seems to keep happening.

Luckily, the Missoulian has another headline to help out Griz Nation, titled Prosecutor: Initial Investigation Insufficient to File Charges Against Griz Players, Two Others.

If you read the article you won’t find a quote from a prosecutor stating what the title implies. Instead, you’ll read this:

“The Missoula City Police Department has given this case to their detective division for further investigation,” Pabst wrote in the statement. “We are meeting with the detectives this morning to request specific additional information. Once the investigation is sufficiently complete, our office will make individual charging decisions for each of the suspects.”

Paul Ryan is representing some of these potential felons, and so far his strategy is to depict this breaking and entering as simply some curious guys with a ladder and perhaps some interest in construction:

A Missoula attorney representing one of the University of Montana football players arrested early Sunday on burglary charges says the students entered a Pattee Canyon residence out of curiosity.

“I haven’t seen any charging documents,” Paul Ryan said. “From what it appeared to them, it was just an unoccupied structure.”

“They were just curious as much as anything,” he added.

Nice defense. I wonder who is footing the bill?

 

[CDAGRIZ]

Going places without consent just seems to keep happening.

Wow. Quite the statement. Who is this guy?

 

[MsMaroon]

Going places without consent just seems to keep happening.

Wow. Quite the statement. Who is this guy?

About William Skink
I'm a poet and political cynic living and writing in Montana.

Writes a blog called Reptile Dysfunction. Not a sports guy . . .

 

[NorthwestFresh]

Yeah...cutting across the lawn is the same thing.

Actually, I said it was "ridiculous."

But, that's just me, because that is also the dead-end of "zero tolerance." It IS the same thing to fanatics for those kinds of simplistic notions of "justice."

YOU are a big part of the reason why the Griz program is in shambles, JM.

 

[NorthwestFresh]

Paul Ryan is representing some of these potential felons, and so far his strategy is to depict this breaking and entering as simply some curious guys with a ladder and perhaps some interest in construction:

A Missoula attorney representing one of the University of Montana football players arrested early Sunday on burglary charges says the students entered a Pattee Canyon residence out of curiosity.

“I haven’t seen any charging documents,” Paul Ryan said. “From what it appeared to them, it was just an unoccupied structure.”

“They were just curious as much as anything,” he added.

The Griz Cleaner is back. Is this one pro bono too? I called it in the Urban Meyer thread. Whom exactly is paying for Counselor Ryan's services yet again? Is there an Uncle Milt in the equation? :shock:

 

[XxSpectrexX]

Paul Ryan is representing some of these potential felons, and so far his strategy is to depict this breaking and entering as simply some curious guys with a ladder and perhaps some interest in construction:

A Missoula attorney representing one of the University of Montana football players arrested early Sunday on burglary charges says the students entered a Pattee Canyon residence out of curiosity.

“I haven’t seen any charging documents,” Paul Ryan said. “From what it appeared to them, it was just an unoccupied structure.”

“They were just curious as much as anything,” he added.

The Griz Cleaner is back. Is this one pro bono too? I called it in the Urban Meyer thread. Whom exactly is paying for Counselor Ryan's services yet again? Is there an Uncle Milt in the equation? :shock:

Who the fuck cares? The homeowner isn't butt hurt so why are you?

 

[SoldierGriz]

Swing and miss. There are infinite levels of "grey" in the law. Jaywalking is breaking the law. Murder is breaking the law. Should a "zero tolerance" policy kick a player off for both offenses? Trespassing is breaking the law. Burglary is breaking the law. Should a "zero tolerance" policy result in the same suspension regardless of the level of offense?

Of course not...the nuance you describe is relevant. But, there are some who actually think the homeowners are at fault, or it was unclear if it was a dwelling, or the rain forced them into the structure. Those ideas floating around on here in an attempt to somehow dismiss this are insane.

They did the wrong thing. No nuance there in my opinion. The remedy formed by the court, admin, and coaches has spece for nuance. I believe Stitt needs to send a strong message in his first big test. I would.

Great post

Must be some other thread railing on the homeowners for being at fault. I haven't seen a single post here blaming them.

Ummm...go back a few pages. Look for the words attractive nuisance, or look for the posts discussing what might have happened if players fell through the floor, or codes about marking construction sites, or posts stating the kids were asleep therefore not traumatized, or the post doubting the homeowner heard criminal intent. The posts are there. Others can have a different conclusion about what they mean. They aren't ambiguous to me. Just like the actions of the players are not ambiguous.

 

[SoldierGriz]

The "ladder" was a makeshift wooden thing for carrying stuff to and from the room being built.

some of you have really had a chance to analyze the evidence. :shock:

question....did this makeshift wooden thing have two long pieces of wood joined by many smaller pieces of wood that connected them from top to bottom? maybe something that looked similar to a capital letter "H" but instead of just one line in the middle connecting the sides there were many lines in the middle connecting the sides?

this could completely make or break this case i feel like....

:lol:

 

[grizaremoregooder]

It will be interesting to see what Stitt does. Canning a guy like KVA is no small thing..

I don't think it is...KVA (if is guilty as charged) has not one to blame but himself for throwing it all away. Kid was going to be 1st team all Big Sky, an All American, and maybe had a shot to play on Sundays. I feel sorry for his parents and family.

 

[UMGriz75]

The Griz Cleaner is back. Is this one pro bono too? I called it in the Urban Meyer thread. Whom exactly is paying for Counselor Ryan's services yet again? Is there an Uncle Milt in the equation? :shock:

Who the f*** cares? The homeowner isn't butt hurt so why are you?

This guy got thrown off his kindergarten football team and has been whining ever since with a pious moralism more appropriate to religious fanatics. Go back and read what he had to say about JJ leading up to the trial, and then the utter destruction of that crap with the not guilty verdict. I would not want to be a UM athlete with moronic and vindictive fans like that one.

 

[UMGriz75]

Ummm...go back a few pages. Look for the words attractive nuisance, or look for the posts discussing what might have happened if players fell through the floor, or codes about marking construction sites, or posts stating the kids were asleep therefore not traumatized, or the post doubting the homeowner heard criminal intent. The posts are there. Others can have a different conclusion about what they mean. They aren't ambiguous to me. Just like the actions of the players are not ambiguous.

This is classic, an example of taking a factual description and twisting it into an agenda.

I used the words "attractive nuisance" because I know what they mean on an unmarked construction site. I'm one of those people that understand the law even if I don't agree with it, unlike the morons who post here in their all knowing fashion, and then further misrepresent what was said, because what was actually posted wasn't good enough. I dislike fabrication to obtain a talking point. Find the post about "codes marking construction sites." Find the post about players "falling through the floor." Find the post about "the kids being asleep." I didn't write them. I don't remember anyone else writing them. It's simply false.

Did you know that deceit is "against the law?" How should you be punished?

This is precisely what I mean by a bunch of pious hypocrites piling onto a Halloween night visit to a construction site. They need to lie to sustain some dam fool narrative that they carry around like a rotten potato, because no slander is good enough if a fb player is involved. Get a life.

 

[grizcountry420]

No way this makes it to 34 pages..

 

[UMcheer2000]

No way this makes it to 34 pages..

Looked at the page number, thought the same and then what do I do?

 

[Raider]

The Griz Cleaner is back. Is this one pro bono too? I called it in the Urban Meyer thread. Whom exactly is paying for Counselor Ryan's services yet again? Is there an Uncle Milt in the equation? :shock:

Who the f*** cares? The homeowner isn't butt hurt so why are you?

This guy got thrown off his kindergarten football team and has been whining ever since with a pious moralism more appropriate to religious fanatics. Go back and read what he had to say about JJ leading up to the trial, and then the utter destruction of that crap with the not guilty verdict. I would not want to be a UM athlete with moronic and vindictive fans like that one.

For what it's worth, NorthwestFresh is a graduate of MSU. Sooo, you should probably take most of it with a grain of salt.