MBBALL WISH LIST FOR THE MEN'S BB PROGRAM

[nicktaber58]

Every state outside of the CA's and TX's and FL's thinks that their in-state school does a bad job of recruiting local talent.

When fans see college level talent playing against local high school talent, it's easy to overestimate how that ability will translate to the next level.

Some of the questions I have looking at Lincoln and his frame (I have no dog in this fight):
1. What position can he guard?
2. How well does he move laterally?
3. How much weight can he put on & maintain his athleticsm?
4. What spots is he most effective offensively? Can he play on the perimeter or be a hybrid 4 in small ball lineups?

A lot of times these guys at the 6'4-6'7 ranges are tweeners who are too slow to guard on the perimeter but too light to guard on the block. We've seen this with guys Trav has brought in from out-of-state. Not a Montana issue, just a general challenge for projecting high school pontential.

Historically, guys from Montana that have played at UM (and beyond) have been offered by other D1s. Samuelson, Kendal, Tinks, Rollie, Brendon Howard. MT high school guys now have more opportunities to play on the circuit than ever, in front of hundreds of coaches and have more visibility than ever before. On the girl's side, we're seeing multiple Montana athletes go to Eastern, Gonzaga, Stanford, receive offers from Idaho, etc. So there's not an issue with out-of-state coaches recruiting Montana players.

I'm not saying Lincoln isn't a D1 guy, he looks to have the size and skill to contribute at a Montana or MSU eventually. I think we're seeing D1's less and less take HS guys because if they don't play, they leave, if they play, they leave.

It seems like most schools are taking the wait and see approach - where guys go to lower levels to actually play, and if they're good enough, they'll transfer up. There's no more of the old school red-shirt, sit as a freshman, play limited minutes as a sophomore, then contribute as a junior - senior season trajectory.

So here's whats fascinating about your 4 questions regarding Lincoln. And indicating why the college D1 basketball game has become so boring. Because so much of the recruiting and evaluation has become about physical measurable, and very little about simply putting the ball in the hoop and playing the game.

But Lincoln specifically does have great athleticism. To me, hes a more refined skill and athleticism version of Josh Bannon. Not quite as tall or as big, but he has a ton of room to add strength to his frame. Id say hes perfect fit for the 3 spot. He plays above the rim as well as anyone for the griz currently, and shoots it very well (hit game winning 3 at the AA title game).

Basketball isn't only physical measurable. The guard for Idaho, from CDA, is 6'1" 170lbs. He lit us up in the Big sky chipper. Because he could get the ball in the hoop. Great shooter, could attack the rim etc.

 

[BigSkyBreakdown]

Braden Koch came into missoula and showed everyone that was there that he literally has a better pure shot, with elevation and quick release, than anyone on our current roster. Better than isaak, kepley, Tyler Thompson, literally everyone.

Give me:
Rey johnston
Braden Koch
Dougie peoples
Lincoln rogers

On our current roster with:
Brooklyn hicks
Money Williams
Tyler Thompson
Kenyon aguino
Connor dick

Plus the freshman coming in, then go be lazer focused in bringing in big men with athleticism.

Never seen R. Johnston or Koch play but we have seen Peoples and he is exactly where he belongs. Rogers kid we will see.

 

[UncleRico]

Never seen R. Johnston or Koch play but we have seen Peoples and he is exactly where he belongs. Rogers kid we will see.

People's was a great high school player and it looks like he having a great career at College of Idaho. I agree with you.

 

[LittleBear]

So here's whats fascinating about your 4 questions regarding Lincoln. And indicating why the college D1 basketball game has become so boring. Because so much of the recruiting and evaluation has become about physical measurable, and very little about simply putting the ball in the hoop and playing the game.

But Lincoln specifically does have great athleticism. To me, hes a more refined skill and athleticism version of Josh Bannon. Not quite as tall or as big, but he has a ton of room to add strength to his frame. Id say hes perfect fit for the 3 spot. He plays above the rim as well as anyone for the griz currently, and shoots it very well (hit game winning 3 at the AA title game).

Basketball isn't only physical measurable. The guard for Idaho, from CDA, is 6'1" 170lbs. He lit us up in the Big sky chipper. Because he could get the ball in the hoop. Great shooter, could attack the rim etc.

"Can he put the ball in the hoop" is your one and only indicator as to his ability to play at the division 1 level...which I respect haha

Virtually every player that plays college basketball (at any level) can simply put the ball in the hoop and play the game.

With Lincoln playing the 3 as you hypothesize he's defending almost exclusively on the perimeter, in transition, getting through ball screens and down screens, and switching 1-3, guarding smaller, quicker guards.

If he's unable to do this, he'd then move down to a hybrid pick and pop 4. Playing the 4 he's fighting post touches, hedging, boxing out, switching big-to-big flex screens, protecting the rim, and ultimately trying to exploit his quickness and shooting advantage over bigger, slower players.

Idk which matchup you think is more favorable for Lincoln... smaller / faster vs. bigger / slower but this is the conundrum tweeners find themselves in, and has been the conversation surrounding Johnston, Germer, Wyman, etc

I've never questioned Lincoln's vertical athleticism, I'm unsure of his lateral athleticism(again i have no dog in this fight).

But again, I think it's a fair question to ask 1. does he have the lateral quickness to defend on the perimeter, not to mention ball skill offensively and if not 2. how much weight & muscle can he gain and still maintain his athleticism to be the player that everyone is so excited about.

I think with his body type, Bobby Moorehead would be a more comparable comp to what he would need to become (defensively) to play at this level. If what he's doing offensively translates to the next level you've got a Tres Tinkle archetype, and he'll be much too good to play at either state school.

 

[Grizd2]

"Can he put the ball in the hoop" is your one and only indicator as to his ability to play at the division 1 level...which I respect haha

Virtually every player that plays college basketball (at any level) can simply put the ball in the hoop and play the game.

With Lincoln playing the 3 as you hypothesize he's defending almost exclusively on the perimeter, in transition, getting through ball screens and down screens, and switching 1-3, guarding smaller, quicker guards.

If he's unable to do this, he'd then move down to a hybrid pick and pop 4. Playing the 4 he's fighting post touches, hedging, boxing out, switching big-to-big flex screens, protecting the rim, and ultimately trying to exploit his quickness and shooting advantage over bigger, slower players.

Idk which matchup you think is more favorable for Lincoln... smaller / faster vs. bigger / slower but this is the conundrum tweeners find themselves in, and has been the conversation surrounding Johnston, Germer, Wyman, etc

I've never questioned Lincoln's vertical athleticism, I'm unsure of his lateral athleticism(again i have no dog in this fight).

But again, I think it's a fair question to ask 1. does he have the lateral quickness to defend on the perimeter, not to mention ball skill offensively and if not 2. how much weight & muscle can he gain and still maintain his athleticism to be the player that everyone is so excited about.

I think with his body type, Bobby Moorehead would be a more comparable comp to what he would need to become (defensively) to play at this level. If what he's doing offensively translates to the next level you've got a Tres Tinkle archetype, and he'll be much too good to play at either state school.

This is all very fair, and honestly if the Griz coaches spent any time recruiting or acting interested in Montana much of this would be less troubling. That said, there's definitely players on the team currently with those same questions. Those same players do not have the archetype of being much too good to play at either state school. Which is EXACTLY why you get him in your program.

 

[nicktaber58]

"Can he put the ball in the hoop" is your one and only indicator as to his ability to play at the division 1 level...which I respect haha

Virtually every player that plays college basketball (at any level) can simply put the ball in the hoop and play the game.

With Lincoln playing the 3 as you hypothesize he's defending almost exclusively on the perimeter, in transition, getting through ball screens and down screens, and switching 1-3, guarding smaller, quicker guards.

If he's unable to do this, he'd then move down to a hybrid pick and pop 4. Playing the 4 he's fighting post touches, hedging, boxing out, switching big-to-big flex screens, protecting the rim, and ultimately trying to exploit his quickness and shooting advantage over bigger, slower players.

Idk which matchup you think is more favorable for Lincoln... smaller / faster vs. bigger / slower but this is the conundrum tweeners find themselves in, and has been the conversation surrounding Johnston, Germer, Wyman, etc

I've never questioned Lincoln's vertical athleticism, I'm unsure of his lateral athleticism(again i have no dog in this fight).

But again, I think it's a fair question to ask 1. does he have the lateral quickness to defend on the perimeter, not to mention ball skill offensively and if not 2. how much weight & muscle can he gain and still maintain his athleticism to be the player that everyone is so excited about.

I think with his body type, Bobby Moorehead would be a more comparable comp to what he would need to become (defensively) to play at this level. If what he's doing offensively translates to the next level you've got a Tres Tinkle archetype, and he'll be much too good to play at either state school.

I think the #1 stat kept is points scored, correct? I dont think the scoreboard keeps track of a running tally of vertical, height and weight Obviously physical measurable matter. I'll give you peoples, but ill give you run down of some others:

Koch: I watched him decimate our guards with his quickness, ability to elevate and shoot, and truly he has a better pure shot than anyone on our roster. Kai johnson from last year maybe similar, but I'd give the edge to Koch. And FAR better rhan anyone this year. His supposed knock was his athleticism, yet I watched him beat our guys athletically.

Johnston: would live to see him at our level. Won his leagues frosh of the year award. True freshman, he balled out. Hes undersized for a 4 in our league, but can score and is strong as an ox.

Lincoln: 3 or probably more of a stretch 4... has lateral quickness to defense 3 spot, size and can add strength to defend 4. As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create. Defends well, his biggest adjustment would be man defense on the perimeter. Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got. Gets to the rim very well.

 

[BigSkyBreakdown]

I think the #1 stat kept is points scored, correct? I dont think the scoreboard keeps track of a running tally of vertical, height and weight Obviously physical measurable matter. I'll give you peoples, but ill give you run down of some others:

Koch: I watched him decimate our guards with his quickness, ability to elevate and shoot, and truly he has a better pure shot than anyone on our roster. Kai johnson from last year maybe similar, but I'd give the edge to Koch. And FAR better rhan anyone this year. His supposed knock was his athleticism, yet I watched him beat our guys athletically.

Johnston: would live to see him at our level. Won his leagues frosh of the year award. True freshman, he balled out. Hes undersized for a 4 in our league, but can score and is strong as an ox.

Lincoln: 3 or probably more of a stretch 4... has lateral quickness to defense 3 spot, size and can add strength to defend 4. As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create. Defends well, his biggest adjustment would be man defense on the perimeter. Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got. Gets to the rim very well.

You are who you can defend in college basketball. It is that plain and simple. Scoring gets you in the door, defending keeps you there. Just our 2 cents.

 

[LittleBear]

This is all very fair, and honestly if the Griz coaches spent any time recruiting or acting interested in Montana much of this would be less troubling. That said, there's definitely players on the team currently with those same questions. Those same players do not have the archetype of being much too good to play at either state school. Which is EXACTLY why you get him in your program.

For sure, I'm all for it. Give him a scholarship and see what he develops into.

But he's by no means a bonafide D1 player, which is why no other D1 offered him, unlike previous MT high school greats.

I think a really talented Missoula kid deserves a scholarship and a shot to see what a redshirt and couple years of development could lead to.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Anderson was ... OK until he got hurt. Didnt move the needle much. Betts definitely was a flop.

Betts is still young and injury prone.
Not my definition of a flop.

 

[nicktaber58]

You are who you can defend in college basketball. It is that plain and simple. Scoring gets you in the door, defending keeps you there. Just our 2 cents.

Who / what is big sky breakdown?

 

[LittleBear]

I think the #1 stat kept is points scored, correct? I dont think the scoreboard keeps track of a running tally of vertical, height and weight Obviously physical measurable matter. I'll give you peoples, but ill give you run down of some others:

Koch: I watched him decimate our guards with his quickness, ability to elevate and shoot, and truly he has a better pure shot than anyone on our roster. Kai johnson from last year maybe similar, but I'd give the edge to Koch. And FAR better rhan anyone this year. His supposed knock was his athleticism, yet I watched him beat our guys athletically.

Johnston: would live to see him at our level. Won his leagues frosh of the year award. True freshman, he balled out. Hes undersized for a 4 in our league, but can score and is strong as an ox.

Lincoln: 3 or probably more of a stretch 4... has lateral quickness to defense 3 spot, size and can add strength to defend 4. As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create. Defends well, his biggest adjustment would be man defense on the perimeter. Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got. Gets to the As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create. Defends well, his biggest adjustment would be man defense on the perimeter. Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got. Gets to the rim very well

“As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create.”

“Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got.”

A high school senior who’s both a better shooter and above the rim athlete than anyone on UM’s roster is too talented to be a Griz.

 

[nicktaber58]

“As good a shooter as griz have currently, can create.”

“Plays above the rum as well as anyone weve got.”

A high school senior who’s both a better shooter and above the rim athlete than anyone on UM’s roster is too talented to be a Griz.

Yep. And the griz stiff armed him. Wanted to be a griz. Wild.

 

[grizjumps45]

Who are these D1 players you speak of? Lets say going back 5 yrs?

I mean Rhett reynolds’s could certainly be helping out the griz right now.

 

[Sport]

And the debate goes on…….and on…….and on. Isn’t it great to be an armchair quarterback? It amazes me how some of the posters on this board seem to think they are better judges of talent than the coaching staff who literally spend hundreds if not thousands of hours evaluating talent. Sometimes even the coaches get it wrong, but I’d rather take the opinion of Travis and staff as to whether or not to offer certain players scholarships or not.
The truth is, in my opinion, the competition in Montana high school basketball is not as competitive as it is in most urban cities. Just because a player in Montana has stats that jump off the page doesn’t mean he’ll be a superstar at the collegiate level. It’s as much based on the level of competition he goes up against. The AAU circuit is a good evaluation tool for talent. There at least the players go up against comparable talent.

 

[Hoops watcher]

I think any roster that consists of 7-8 Montana kids would struggle in the BSC. I know you disagree, but there just aren't that many D1 players. I believe the best you could hope for to maintain a top tier BSC team is a kid every 2-3 years, giving you around 3 on the roster. Reality is that little evaluation actually happens for kids during the high school season. Coaches put more weight on the AAU circuit where the overall competition is better.

I think a reasonable person could hope for a few in state dudes as a way to rekindle enthusiasm for a program that is losing steam and an engaged fan base. And has been the last half decade. Though I can understand a kid going Frontier rather than spending 4 years on the pine. Will they all be contributors? Not realistically, but if it helped generate some excitement around the program it's worth a try. It's not like we have studs that can't make the rotation because of excess talent in those spots now.

 

[nicktaber58]

And the debate goes on…….and on…….and on. Isn’t it great to be an armchair quarterback? It amazes me how some of the posters on this board seem to think they are better judges of talent than the coaching staff who literally spend hundreds if not thousands of hours evaluating talent. Sometimes even the coaches get it wrong, but I’d rather take the opinion of Travis and staff as to whether or not to offer certain players scholarships or not.
The truth is, in my opinion, the competition in Montana high school basketball is not as competitive as it is in most urban cities. Just because a player in Montana has stats that jump off the page doesn’t mean he’ll be a superstar at the collegiate level. It’s as much based on the level of competition he goes up against. The AAU circuit is a good evaluation tool for talent. There at least the players go up against comparable talent.

I like travis. I support the program. I was at the meet the team dinner. Great kids on the team. However, Not one person can convince me our team this season, and most seasons, are so talented as cross the board that there isnt room for a handful of Montana kids to develop. Especially home grown kids. Especially given the revolving door that is the end of our bench.

Of course we need to get the Brandon Whitney, sayeed pridgetts, pridgens etc etc of the world. But we damn sure have room talent wise for Montana kids.

Colton Mitchell, a 6'1" guard from Coeur d'alene, ID, went on a personal 8-0 run early on in the Big sky chipper, we're on our heals the rest of the game. 4 other Idaho kids helped whoop our ass. Im sure youre going to tell me the 6'1' guards in Montana are too small, too slow, and can't shoot? Just a few hours away? Absolutely uncanny how evolution works. Very tribal and very distinct via state lines, I'm sure.

 

[Sport]

I like travis. I support the program. I was at the meet the team dinner. Great kids on the team. However, Not one person can convince me our team this season, and most seasons, are so talented as cross the board that there isnt room for a handful of Montana kids to develop. Especially home grown kids. Especially given the revolving door that is the end of our bench.

Of course we need to get the Brandon Whitney, sayeed pridgetts, pridgens etc etc of the world. But we damn sure have room talent wise for Montana kids.

Colton Mitchell, a 6'1" guard from Coeur d'alene, ID, went on a personal 8-0 run early on in the Big sky chipper, we're on our heals the rest of the game. 4 other Idaho kids helped whoop our ass. Im sure youre going to tell me the 6'1' guards in Montana are too small, too slow, and can't shoot? Just a few hours away? Absolutely uncanny how evolution works. Very tribal and very distinct via state lines, I'm sure.

I was also at the meet the players event last fall. I’ve known Travis since he came back to coach the men’s program. Although he has never stated it publicly I think his philosophy is “what’s more important, to win the BSC championship or continue to maintain the teams 100% graduation rate? Yes, winning the BSC championship is important, helps him keep his job but Travis’s real challenge lies in preparing these young men for what lies beyond basketball. Let’s be realistic, how many Damon Lillards has the Big Sky produced? You could count on one hand how many players from the Big Sky have had successful careers in the NBA.
But back to your original point, recruiting Montana players. Don’t you think Travis would love to have Montana kids on his team? Would it help attendance, maybe. Part of Travis’s compensation is based on butts in the seats.

 

[LittleBear]

I think Taber's enthusiasm and unshakeable belief in Rogers is the reason why it is important to have the few MT hoopers that have the potential to play at the Division 1 level on UM's roster. He genuinely believes that an 18-year-old (playing against kids who 99% of which will never touch a college floor at any level) is better than current Griz players.

That kind of excitement is what matters and is why Cat and Griz football continue to have the following it does.

Outside of Kendal and Jared we haven't had a Montana kid start for the Griz in the last 15 or so years, even longer for a Missoula kid. If Rollie would've been a Griz and developed as he did at other schools I imagine that Dahlberg would have been rocking.

So while I hesitate to mark Lincoln as the 2nd coming and a sure-fire 1st teamer I do think it would mean a lot to the community and program + be pretty cool that he be a Griz. It's unfortunate that he won't be.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

I think a reasonable person could hope for a few in state dudes as a way to rekindle enthusiasm for a program that is losing steam and an engaged fan base. And has been the last half decade. Though I can understand a kid going Frontier rather than spending 4 years on the pine. Will they all be contributors? Not realistically, but if it helped generate some excitement around the program it's worth a try. It's not like we have studs that can't make the rotation because of excess talent in those spots now.

I don't disagree, they need to be better. But reality is there are only D1 caliber kids every few years, so not something you can use as the foundation of a program.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

I like travis. I support the program. I was at the meet the team dinner. Great kids on the team. However, Not one person can convince me our team this season, and most seasons, are so talented as cross the board that there isnt room for a handful of Montana kids to develop. Especially home grown kids. Especially given the revolving door that is the end of our bench.

Of course we need to get the Brandon Whitney, sayeed pridgetts, pridgens etc etc of the world. But we damn sure have room talent wise for Montana kids.

Colton Mitchell, a 6'1" guard from Coeur d'alene, ID, went on a personal 8-0 run early on in the Big sky chipper, we're on our heals the rest of the game. 4 other Idaho kids helped whoop our ass. Im sure youre going to tell me the 6'1' guards in Montana are too small, too slow, and can't shoot? Just a few hours away? Absolutely uncanny how evolution works. Very tribal and very distinct via state lines, I'm sure.

You mean the kid that Idaho didn't offer out of high school and transferred from Idaho St?