The year 2006, my bone head math tells me that was 20 years ago. Least we forget the year is 2026 and sports has had significant changes in that time. 2006 is irrelevant in 2026.
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MBBALL WISH LIST FOR THE MEN'S BB PROGRAM
- Thread starter citygriz
- Start date
Ya... if you think basketball, and the person best equipped to put the ball in the hoop has changed that much in 20 years, you're trying to sell something nobody wants to buy. Thank you for clarifying that you're a bone head, because that was most certainly a bone headed thing to say.
You must love this cycle we're in of an endless revolving door of random dudes that have no connection to the state coming and going at the end of our bench.
Again, I'm not saying we need a comolete roster overhaul. Still gotta go get the money's, the tyler Thompsons, etc etc. But lets get this thing back to having atleast somewhat of a culture of montana dudes that can hoop. Ya, sure. Some won't make it, will transfer out to the frontier, whatever. But we'll have some that do. And those that do, move the needle.
And the energy level in dahlberg arena will feel the difference.
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The NCAA is now a business where you need more than just institutional funding to maintain a "competitive" program. As the basketball program stands now there is very little local interest at all in watching a bunch of kids from large areas play basketball at the local college. There is not opportunity for kids to dream about being one of them because, short of Conner, there are no other kids that they can look at and say that could be me some day. With competition for entertainment dollar the attendance has been dropping and there is no engagement with the local communities at all. Contrast that to the football program where we market the heck out of 37, kids dream of being that guy and work towards that goal. Kids go the games thinking this could be me some day. Are all recruited Montana raised football kids good or do they all make a name for themselves? No, but they are given a chance to make their dreams come true. I know the roster sizes are different between the sports, but there are not 14 kids on the Grizzly (or Bobcat) bench seeing playing time. Most of the kids that don't play most likely grew into the player they were going to be by their senior year in high school. One of the benefits of playing out of State is their access to competition and coaching to get to that level before college with no improvement once they get to campus. There needs to be at least 3 players from Montana on the team to drive interest in a fledgling program. They will at the very least drive interest and chances are they will work their way into playing time. If they don't work out for whatever reason, they will transfer like others have from both Montana and out of state.
At our level the hope is to win a conference championship and a NCAA game. Having some Montana kids would not harm that goal and IMO it would help stabilize the program. Lincoln should have been one of those guys. And for those of you saying he can go D2 and come back via the portal, if he goes D2 and gets more physically developed and better he will be looking at programs bigger than the Griz.
At our level the hope is to win a conference championship and a NCAA game. Having some Montana kids would not harm that goal and IMO it would help stabilize the program. Lincoln should have been one of those guys. And for those of you saying he can go D2 and come back via the portal, if he goes D2 and gets more physically developed and better he will be looking at programs bigger than the Griz.
Spot on.
Look kudos to Tech for coming in and beating us this year. They played better than us that night, there's no doubt about it. I'd bet you though that if we played them again we would've beaten them by 20. They caught us on a bad night and if we played like we did in Boise, they wouldn't have stood a chance against us.
This is not meant to dunk on anyone, but I'm from Butte and I happen to know Dougie Peoples and his family. I can tell you from having seen him play in person that he is not a D1 caliber player Tabs. He's a great NAIA player and I love that he's balling out at COI. However, he would not play any type of significant minutes if he played for the cats or the Griz, and you're kidding yourself if you actually believe that. Just because a kid is a good shooter does not mean he's a D1 caliber player. I'm not gonna pick the poor kid apart but there are other parts of his game that aren't up to D1 level. Same goes for all the other names you mentioned except for Rogers who is actually good enough IMO.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
My take, it would benefit the program to recruit Montana more, but I also don't see 1-2 kids every year as a needed benchmark or as a net positive. I am not sure basing your argument on 2006 or a one-game sample vs Tech is as definitive as you think.
True, its not an absolute by any means. However, I'd say the benchmark of creating a culture of getting 1-2 in state kids per year is a hell of a lot closer to a net positive as is the current narrative of "montana kids can't play d1 basketball".
2006 and the tech game arent absolutes either. However, it remains fact the last time we won an ncaa game was a team that had Montana dudes as key contributors. We havent sniffed it since, with the current mindset towards Montana players.
In regards to the tech game, in which I watched live in person, the best shooter on the court, without question, played for tech and is from Montana. And his quickness, ability to elevate to get shots off, and quick release were *also* the best on the floor. The diekhans kid had the physical size, activeness, and scoring ability / overall skill as anyone in the court. And its not like this was a fluke... tech beat us in 2019 at home too. Yes, I get we beat them way more often than not. Im not saying that team overall can compete consistently with the griz. But it also remains fact they have kids from Montana on their roster that proved in person they belonged. And would absolutely have a presence on the griz.
MissoulaMarinerFan
Well-known member
I'm seeing it a bit different. Yes, you cannot recruit only Montana, but when you have excellent homegrown talent, you gotta at least try and put the full-court press on for recruiting. Rollie was committed and then the staff got weird about him playing multiple sports - and they lost him.
You don't get Lincoln Rogers after doing your very best? Fine - but the way the state of Montana works - particularly with "relationships", that effort goes a long way in building goodwill.
You can't recruit every MT player but you should try your darndest to land the best ones when they come around (there's not a Lincoln Rogers or a Jordan Hasquet or a Rollie Worster that come around every single year).
It doesn't hurt to see if you could get a borderline MT player to walk-on at the end of the bench rather than some random, 3 states away juco/other walk-on.
My issue is at least put in the effort. Seems that hasn't happened in a long while.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
I think any roster that consists of 7-8 Montana kids would struggle in the BSC. I know you disagree, but there just aren't that many D1 players. I believe the best you could hope for to maintain a top tier BSC team is a kid every 2-3 years, giving you around 3 on the roster. Reality is that little evaluation actually happens for kids during the high school season. Coaches put more weight on the AAU circuit where the overall competition is better.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
This is literally what I said.
If you brought in 1-2 per year, and you assumed a normal attrition rate of kids that didnt work out and transferred to a frontier or d2, youd end up with 4-5 montana kids per year (ish) on roster on average. We absolutely could dominate the big sky under this. Why do I know, because its been the way we've built the tradition and history of success and excellence we have as a program. More than half of the scorers in our 1000 pt club are from Montana! The leading scorer in program history is from Montana. Program was built this way. Just hasnt been the case the last decade. And we absolutely have the talent to maintain this balance. I do agree, I dont think there is room for 8 on roster (and that would be very rare historically). But we damn sure have enough for 4-5.
Reality is, we have 4-6 kids every year the past decade that are from other regions, come and go, never see the floor, and dont work out. We could use the same roster spots to cultivate a culture of success building homegrown talent.
Honestly, im not even sure why anyone WOULDN'T want that. Can still go get the talent weve always got from out of state, which of course we need too.
They've fucked up on rollie, reaquan, Kendall Manuel (luckily he still ended up coming back), Lincoln, Josh huestis and many others that could've helped that didnt get any attention that went frontier or elsewhere.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
Agree to disagree.
HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
They were never getting Huestis.
I love griz hoops. Ive got rings from the last 3 conference championship teams. Active booster and also help put together the roundball golf tournament every year. Love taking my kids to games. Honestly, really like Travis and the staff. But the reality is the program has easily fixable blindspots. Having just returned from the state AA highschool basketball tournament, watching Lincoln rogers burry the game winning 3 for the stae title, I'm keenly aware of the blindspot currently of the lack of recruiting of mantana highschool basketball. It also doesnt help that I had multiple conversations with a extremely successful AA head coach (his team didnt make it this year), whom stayed at our hotel. And we chatted frankly about multiple topics, this being one of them...
There are currently 4 rostered D-1 basketball players from the state of Montana across 365 Division One Teams.
They are:
Seth Amunrud - Bozeman, MT (MSU)
7 PPG in 20 MPG off the bench
Connor Dick - Missoula, MT (UM)
2.4 PPPG in 10 minutes, bench piece
Fischer Brown - Lewistown, MT (Western Carolina)
Scholarship player that averaged 2 points in 10 minutes for 15-16 WCU
Luke Allison - Missoula, MT (Presbyterian)
Walk-on that appeared in 3 games for 15-18 Presbyterian
There are 0 MT natives starting on a division one basketball team. 3 of them hardly play or make any impact. Montana does not produce great D-1 basketball talent. If they did, more of them would appear on UM and MSU rosters.
And I’ll give you this. I think Brayden Koch is maybe one more guy that could be a solid bench piece at the Div-1 level. But to put things in perspective, he was the leading scorer for Tech last year in a game UM won by 30 points. That was a better Tech team than this years, which had a fluke shooting night to beat us.
Maybe the real critique should be our choice of Montanans. There are better MT prospects than Connor Dick, Mack Anderson, and Dylan Holst. Replace them with the Brayden Kochs, Zacheus Darko-Kelly’s of the world and I’d be fully on board.
They are:
Seth Amunrud - Bozeman, MT (MSU)
7 PPG in 20 MPG off the bench
Connor Dick - Missoula, MT (UM)
2.4 PPPG in 10 minutes, bench piece
Fischer Brown - Lewistown, MT (Western Carolina)
Scholarship player that averaged 2 points in 10 minutes for 15-16 WCU
Luke Allison - Missoula, MT (Presbyterian)
Walk-on that appeared in 3 games for 15-18 Presbyterian
There are 0 MT natives starting on a division one basketball team. 3 of them hardly play or make any impact. Montana does not produce great D-1 basketball talent. If they did, more of them would appear on UM and MSU rosters.
And I’ll give you this. I think Brayden Koch is maybe one more guy that could be a solid bench piece at the Div-1 level. But to put things in perspective, he was the leading scorer for Tech last year in a game UM won by 30 points. That was a better Tech team than this years, which had a fluke shooting night to beat us.
Maybe the real critique should be our choice of Montanans. There are better MT prospects than Connor Dick, Mack Anderson, and Dylan Holst. Replace them with the Brayden Kochs, Zacheus Darko-Kelly’s of the world and I’d be fully on board.
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The choice is also accurate. Totally agree there. Aside from Mack, he was a stud in his own way. Never much of a scorer, but al other accounts he was a stud. Great locker room dude. Defensively he was impressive. But youre spot on on the premise otherwise.
In regards to tech. They beat us fair and square. Yes it was a great shooting performance, but isnt that kinda the point ? Don't give me the whole team. But give me Koch, diekhans, and the freshman from bonners ferry all day.
The odd part of the great discussion is the confusion of some assuming im saying we need all of techs team, or we need to have a roster FULL of Montana kids. We don't, and definitely not what im saying. I'd just love to see a culture and concerted effort to have a pipeline of them. Maybe some years its only 2 on roster. Maybe some years 5 or 6 on roster! It would ebb and flow. Anything would better than the current stiff arm they are giving Montana kids. And its particularly glaring right now given the loss to tech, the mediocre season (for our standards), and missoula product Lincoln rogers having a terrible experience with the recruiting process with Montana. Its all top of mind.
LittleBear
Well-known member
Every state outside of the CA's and TX's and FL's thinks that their in-state school does a bad job of recruiting local talent.
When fans see college level talent playing against local high school talent, it's easy to overestimate how that ability will translate to the next level.
Some of the questions I have looking at Lincoln and his frame (I have no dog in this fight):
1. What position can he guard?
2. How well does he move laterally?
3. How much weight can he put on & maintain his athleticsm?
4. What spots is he most effective offensively? Can he play on the perimeter or be a hybrid 4 in small ball lineups?
A lot of times these guys at the 6'4-6'7 ranges are tweeners who are too slow to guard on the perimeter but too light to guard on the block. We've seen this with guys Trav has brought in from out-of-state. Not a Montana issue, just a general challenge for projecting high school pontential.
Historically, guys from Montana that have played at UM (and beyond) have been offered by other D1s. Samuelson, Kendal, Tinks, Rollie, Brendon Howard. MT high school guys now have more opportunities to play on the circuit than ever, in front of hundreds of coaches and have more visibility than ever before. On the girl's side, we're seeing multiple Montana athletes go to Eastern, Gonzaga, Stanford, receive offers from Idaho, etc. So there's not an issue with out-of-state coaches recruiting Montana players.
I'm not saying Lincoln isn't a D1 guy, he looks to have the size and skill to contribute at a Montana or MSU eventually. I think we're seeing D1's less and less take HS guys because if they don't play, they leave, if they play, they leave.
It seems like most schools are taking the wait and see approach - where guys go to lower levels to actually play, and if they're good enough, they'll transfer up. There's no more of the old school red-shirt, sit as a freshman, play limited minutes as a sophomore, then contribute as a junior - senior season trajectory.
When fans see college level talent playing against local high school talent, it's easy to overestimate how that ability will translate to the next level.
Some of the questions I have looking at Lincoln and his frame (I have no dog in this fight):
1. What position can he guard?
2. How well does he move laterally?
3. How much weight can he put on & maintain his athleticsm?
4. What spots is he most effective offensively? Can he play on the perimeter or be a hybrid 4 in small ball lineups?
A lot of times these guys at the 6'4-6'7 ranges are tweeners who are too slow to guard on the perimeter but too light to guard on the block. We've seen this with guys Trav has brought in from out-of-state. Not a Montana issue, just a general challenge for projecting high school pontential.
Historically, guys from Montana that have played at UM (and beyond) have been offered by other D1s. Samuelson, Kendal, Tinks, Rollie, Brendon Howard. MT high school guys now have more opportunities to play on the circuit than ever, in front of hundreds of coaches and have more visibility than ever before. On the girl's side, we're seeing multiple Montana athletes go to Eastern, Gonzaga, Stanford, receive offers from Idaho, etc. So there's not an issue with out-of-state coaches recruiting Montana players.
I'm not saying Lincoln isn't a D1 guy, he looks to have the size and skill to contribute at a Montana or MSU eventually. I think we're seeing D1's less and less take HS guys because if they don't play, they leave, if they play, they leave.
It seems like most schools are taking the wait and see approach - where guys go to lower levels to actually play, and if they're good enough, they'll transfer up. There's no more of the old school red-shirt, sit as a freshman, play limited minutes as a sophomore, then contribute as a junior - senior season trajectory.
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HelenaHandBasket
Well-known member
For better or worse, this is the new reality, especially for mid-majors.
