Clarifying my position - they are kinda growing on me.

[GrizRealist]

Okay, but you were/are talking about something different than what I was addressing, at least at the outset. My kids had some advantages, but most of them were the same as what I had been taught as a kid by my parents. Work hard, do well in school, play hard in sports, be nice, don't complain, make many friends, have some fun, and keep moving forward.

My view is somewhat different than yours. I feel there is still huge opportunity for kids/younger people who do what I was taught to do and what I taught my kids to do. And my view is that younger people have gotten big expectations, some good and some not good. Some have had it easy (not just because of money/wealth of parents). Some are entitled, and then can be disappointed when everything doesn't go their way. I've also read that that one big problem is that expectations of money/success have gotten into the heads of such a high percentage of younger people, that now there isn't enough room in the upper end and top for all of them. There's competition due to the numbers, and some younger people can't or won't compete.

As Roger Federer noted in his famous Dartmouth graduation speech, he won almost 80% of his matches and many Grand Slams, but he won only 54% of the points in matches. "Effortless" is a myth. When one is playing a point, the point is at that point in time the most important thing in the world. But lose it or win it, you need to move on to the next point. "It's only a point."

In my view, too many younger people don't want to earn their points and their matches. They think it is just going to happen or be given to them. The Colt Andersons and Marc Marianis of the world are not like that. Nor was I. If you stumble or get knocked down, get up and get moving forward again. If you start to see a brick wall, react and be a broken field runner and find another path.

And, in your case, don't complain that it was easier for me and Boomers and hard for you. Evaluate and deal with the situation and find your path forward to success, and happiness. And hope you are fortunate to have good or decent health.

Edit: I do agree that kids with affluent parents have advantages. Especially Anglo ones.

I don’t think anyone is arguing that hard work stopped mattering. The question is whether hard work pays off the same way it used to. When you were told work hard, go to school, keep your head down, there was a pretty clear path to stability. That path is a lot more expensive and less predictable now.

Calling younger people entitled ignores the environment they stepped into. They were raised to aim high and believe in themselves, then hit housing costs, student debt, and a hyper competitive job market. That disconnect creates frustration, not laziness.

Effort still matters. But pretending the playing field is identical just is not honest.

 

[GrizRealist]

The problem is Zoomers expect everything to just be given to them without working for it and going through the process to achieve it. If something doesn’t go a Zoomers way, they typically quit instead of working through adversity.

Lazy take. You are confusing frustration with entitlement. Zoomers are entering adulthood with higher housing costs, higher tuition, more debt, and less job security than previous generations had. Many of them are working just as hard, if not harder, for outcomes that are objectively tougher to reach. Walking away from a bad deal is not quitting, it is recognizing when the system is not paying out the way it used to. Every older generation thinks the next one is soft. It is easier to blame character than admit the landscape changed.

 

[5280Griz]

Lazy take. You are confusing frustration with entitlement. Zoomers are entering adulthood with higher housing costs, higher tuition, more debt, and less job security than previous generations had. Many of them are working just as hard, if not harder, for outcomes that are objectively tougher to reach. Walking away from a bad deal is not quitting, it is recognizing when the system is not paying out the way it used to. Every older generation thinks the next one is soft. It is easier to blame character than admit the landscape changed.

It’s a lazy take to say job security and outcomes are objectively harder to reach. The unemployment rate is 4.3% nationally today and it was 9% 15 years ago. The average household income increased from $50k to $84k in the same 15 year time period. Total debt is higher today but the debt to income ratio was worse 15 years ago. There are a lot more ways to earn money online and work remotely now than before COVID. Home ownership was more attainable for millennials but many millennials who purchased homes recently are going to be underwater if the market crashes. College is more expensive but in what other objective measure has outcomes not become easier for Zoomers compared to previous generations?

 

[GrizRealist]

It’s a lazy take to say job security and outcomes are objectively harder to reach. The unemployment rate is 4.3% nationally today and it was 9% 15 years ago. The average household income increased from $50k to $84k in the same 15 year time period. Total debt is higher today but the debt to income ratio was worse 15 years ago. There are a lot more ways to earn money online and work remotely now than before COVID. Home ownership was more attainable for millennials but many millennials who purchased homes recently are going to be underwater if the market crashes. College is more expensive but in what other objective measure has outcomes not become easier for Zoomers compared to previous generations?

You are cherry picking short term stats and ignoring long term structural shifts.

Yes, unemployment is lower today than during the financial crisis. That is not a fair baseline. Compare housing prices to median income in the 1970s or 1990s versus today. Compare tuition as a percentage of income. Compare healthcare premiums. Compare the disappearance of pensions. That is where the structural squeeze shows up.

Household income going from 50k to 84k over 15 years sounds impressive until you factor inflation and asset prices. Real wage growth for many workers has not kept pace with housing and education costs in high opportunity metros. A 4% unemployment rate does not help much if the jobs available do not allow you to buy into the same asset ladder previous generations climbed.

Remote work and online income opportunities exist, but they also come with less stability, fewer benefits, and more competition. That is not automatically easier, it is just different risk shifted onto the individual.

If you want an objective measure, look at first time homebuyer age, student loan balances, and the share of income required for a down payment in major markets. Those are not cherry picked recession comparisons. They are long term structural changes.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

I don't agree with realist often, but he hit this one out of the park.

 

[mthoopsfan]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that hard work stopped mattering. The question is whether hard work pays off the same way it used to. When you were told work hard, go to school, keep your head down, there was a pretty clear path to stability. That path is a lot more expensive and less predictable now.

Calling younger people entitled ignores the environment they stepped into. They were raised to aim high and believe in themselves, then hit housing costs, student debt, and a hyper competitive job market. That disconnect creates frustration, not laziness.

Effort still matters. But pretending the playing field is identical just is not honest.

I think hard work still pays off very well. I don't know what the difference may have been in the past. Do you? Can you give some citations or something? When I was told what I was told, I didn't see a path to stability. Maybe it was there; maybe it wasn't.

I'm not sure that the path is alot more expensive now. The place people want to go now, is much different. More into business and big time business. Tech exists now. More doctors, lawyers and professionals. They want more expensive toys. Many paths in the past were to different places/jobs.

Not sure what you mean by less predictable. Feel free to explain.

I call some people entitled by their attitudes and lack of good work ethic, not because of the environment. There are two types of entitlement. Thinking everything will come to them, and being entitled by privilege. I don't know if the first existed in the old days. The second is more prevalent than it was.

To me, this is lack of persistence, work ethic and drive, mostly: "then hit housing costs, student debt, and a hyper competitive job market. That disconnect creates frustration, not laziness.

"then hit housing costs, student debt, and a hyper competitive job market. That disconnect creates frustration, not laziness."

I never said the playing field is level. I said the opposite. It wasn't level in the old days either. And I perceive "effort" to be lacking in many of the younger crowd. I worked for many decades. I had 5 kids. I have seen and experienced many younger people along the way.

I'm happy to look at more detailed stats that you may have.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Lazy take. You are confusing frustration with entitlement. Zoomers are entering adulthood with higher housing costs, higher tuition, more debt, and less job security than previous generations had. Many of them are working just as hard, if not harder, for outcomes that are objectively tougher to reach. Walking away from a bad deal is not quitting, it is recognizing when the system is not paying out the way it used to. Every older generation thinks the next one is soft. It is easier to blame character than admit the landscape changed.

My view is that it's not mostly from frustration. Some seem to have been born with expecting things to come to them.

My view is that is easier to blame landscape instead of character (and character isn't the right word; I just used your term).

I don't recall my parents thinking the younger generation to them was soft.

 

[mthoopsfan]

You are cherry picking short term stats and ignoring long term structural shifts.

Yes, unemployment is lower today than during the financial crisis. That is not a fair baseline. Compare housing prices to median income in the 1970s or 1990s versus today. Compare tuition as a percentage of income. Compare healthcare premiums. Compare the disappearance of pensions. That is where the structural squeeze shows up.

Household income going from 50k to 84k over 15 years sounds impressive until you factor inflation and asset prices. Real wage growth for many workers has not kept pace with housing and education costs in high opportunity metros. A 4% unemployment rate does not help much if the jobs available do not allow you to buy into the same asset ladder previous generations climbed.

Remote work and online income opportunities exist, but they also come with less stability, fewer benefits, and more competition. That is not automatically easier, it is just different risk shifted onto the individual.

If you want an objective measure, look at first time homebuyer age, student loan balances, and the share of income required for a down payment in major markets. Those are not cherry picked recession comparisons. They are long term structural changes.

The younger crowd is wanting and expecting much bigger and better housing and a much bigger and better lifestyle. And more toys. If you want more and bigger, you have to work harder, longer and compete for it. None of the people I know had a house before they were 35 or older. I didn't. I didn't buy a new car for myself until I was almost 75.

 

[5280Griz]

The younger crowd is wanting and expecting much bigger and better housing and a much bigger and better lifestyle. And more toys. If you want more and bigger, you have to work harder, longer and compete for it. None of the people I know had a house before they were 35 or older. I didn't. I didn't buy a new car for myself until I was almost 75.

My parents didn’t own a house until they were older than 35 but it was a custom new build that they spent $180k on and is now worth around $1.8m. Their 2 neighbors that have sold in the past few years did so for $2.7m and $4.3m. That kind of wealth that boomers saw through real estate hasn’t been seen by a previous generation and likely won’t with future generations either.

 

[alabamagrizzly]

My parents didn’t own a house until they were older than 35 but it was a custom new build that they spent $180k on and is now worth around $1.8m. Their 2 neighbors that have sold in the past few years did so for $2.7m and $4.3m. That kind of wealth that boomers saw through real estate hasn’t been seen by a previous generation and likely won’t with future generations either.

My parents didn't own a house until i let them buy one in my name, then they let it go into foreclosure, and now they live in my moms dads double wide that they inherited when we died. Guess the older generation is looking for handouts too.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

I think part of the issue is some people in the boomer generation take offense to younger people identifying non-anecdotal metrics to explain that boomers had things easier. It can be difficult not to take that personally and say, "But I worked hard", or to somehow think a younger person is trying to "cheapen" a specific boomer's accomplishments because that generation had it easier on average. That's where I think the "you're just entitled" feelings come from.

To me, there is no doubt that there are a lot of boomers that worked way harder than I've ever worked, AND younger generations have it harder on average than boomers ever did. Like a lot of things in life, I see it as "both/and" rather than "either/or."

 

[mthoopsfan]

I don’t get the supposed “frustration” excuse in high school, college or in earlier years after college. That’s entitled, or something negative. And I don’t accept frustration as an excuse or explanation anytime. Jeez, figure it out. Do you expect someone else to make it easier for you or give you something? That’s the worst excuse or explanation I have ever heard. Heck, I didn’t have crypto or day-trading or online poker tourneys, but I still figured things out. I never even got a Porsche or Tesla. The only camp I ever attended was church and Boy Scout camp. I only had one pair of sneakers. That frustrates me. Ha.

 

[GrizRealist]

I don’t get the supposed “frustration” excuse in high school, college or in earlier years after college. That’s entitled, or something negative. And I don’t accept frustration as an excuse or explanation anytime. Jeez, figure it out. Do you expect someone else to make it easier for you or give you something? That’s the worst excuse or explanation I have ever heard. Heck, I didn’t have crypto or day-trading or online poker tourneys, but I still figured things out. I never even got a Porsche or Tesla. The only camp I ever attended was church and Boy Scout camp. I only had one pair of sneakers. That frustrates me. Ha.

Hard work still matters. Nobody is arguing it does not. The point is that the cost of the starting line moved, not that effort stopped mattering.

A few concrete examples. In 1980 the median home price was about 3× median household income. Today it is roughly 5 to 6 times nationally and much higher in the places where a lot of jobs are. Public college tuition, adjusted for inflation, has more than doubled since the 1980s, and student loan balances now exceed $1.7 trillion. At the same time, pensions largely disappeared, healthcare costs shifted to employees, and retirement risk moved from employers to individuals through 401K's. That's what I mean by the path being more expensive and less predictable.

You are right that people choose different careers today and some want nicer things. But the data above is not about Porsches or Teslas. It is about basic middle class entry points like housing, education, and retirement security.

Every generation has motivated people and unmotivated people. The difference now is that even motivated people face higher fixed costs and thinner margins for error. That does not remove personal responsibility, but it does change the math.

And just to clarify one thing, nobody is saying people should be given anything or that frustration is an excuse. The point is simply that the economic structure around hard work is different now than it was decades ago, and that difference is measurable. You keep circling back to work ethic and personal attitude, which honestly just shows you are missing the point of the whole discussion. The argument isn’t that effort stopped mattering, it’s that the economic structure around that effort changed in measurable ways. If you can’t separate those two things, then you’re just not going to see what people are talking about here.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Hard work still matters. Nobody is arguing it does not. The point is that the cost of the starting line moved, not that effort stopped mattering.

A few concrete examples. In 1980 the median home price was about 3× median household income. Today it is roughly 5 to 6 times nationally and much higher in the places where a lot of jobs are. Public college tuition, adjusted for inflation, has more than doubled since the 1980s, and student loan balances now exceed $1.7 trillion. At the same time, pensions largely disappeared, healthcare costs shifted to employees, and retirement risk moved from employers to individuals through 401K's. That's what I mean by the path being more expensive and less predictable.

You are right that people choose different careers today and some want nicer things. But the data above is not about Porsches or Teslas. It is about basic middle class entry points like housing, education, and retirement security.

Every generation has motivated people and unmotivated people. The difference now is that even motivated people face higher fixed costs and thinner margins for error. That does not remove personal responsibility, but it does change the math.

And just to clarify one thing, nobody is saying people should be given anything or that frustration is an excuse. The point is simply that the economic structure around hard work is different now than it was decades ago, and that difference is measurable. You keep circling back to work ethic and personal attitude, which honestly just shows you are missing the point of the whole discussion. The argument isn’t that effort stopped mattering, it’s that the economic structure around that effort changed in measurable ways. If you can’t separate those two things, then you’re just not going to see what people are talking about here.

You are missing the point, not me. Tough luck if things are different. I think the starting line has become easier. Figure out the situation, move on and move forward. Who cares if the starting line is different? It is what it is. Who cares if you are frustrated? The world isn't going to change because you are "frustrated".

What you seem to be saying is that younger people are "frustrated" and don't want to put in the necessary effort or figure out how to be successful. If you want success and money, figure out how to do it. So what if you think that it is tougher now than is used to be. I don't agree with that, but if you want success, figure out a way to do it.

l think you are a liberal and are a big part of the problem. You want something for nothing. Your view and attitude highlights what the current problem is.

I am enjoying the discussion. Thx.

 

[GrizRealist]

You are missing the point, not me. Tough luck if things are different. I think the starting line has become easier. Figure out the situation, move on and move forward. Who cares if the starting line is different? It is what it is. Who cares if you are frustrated? The world isn't going to change because you are "frustrated".

What you seem to be saying is that younger people are "frustrated" and don't want to put in the necessary effort or figure out how to be successful. If you want success and money, figure out how to do it. So what if you think that it is tougher now than is used to be. I don't agree with that, but if you want success, figure out a way to do it.

l think you are a liberal and are a big part of the problem. You want something for nothing. Your view and attitude highlights what the current problem is.

I am enjoying the discussion. Thx.

You’re arguing against a position I never took. I never said people should be given anything, and I never said effort doesn’t matter. I’m saying the economic structure changed, which is a factual claim, not a political one.

Acknowledging that housing, tuition, and retirement risk shifted dramatically over the last few decades isn’t “liberal,” it’s basic economics. People still have to figure it out and work hard, just like they always have. The difference is the same level of effort now buys less stability than it used to, which is why the conversation even exists.

So no, it’s not about frustration or wanting something for nothing. It’s about recognizing that the rules of the game changed whether we like it or not. Ignoring that doesn’t make people tougher, it just means we’re refusing to look at the landscape honestly.

I would not describe myself as a liberal either. I’m right of center politically, but I also understand economics well enough to call things as they are. A lot of what you’re saying seems rooted in your personal experience and how the world looked from your vantage point, which isn’t necessarily how most people experience it today.

I think your perspective is common among older men who came up in a different economic environment. If many of them suddenly found themselves 25 again trying to build a life in today’s landscape, they might be pretty surprised at how far the same level of “effort” actually goes.

And for clarification, I am not in the Millennial/Gen Z age group, nor am I in yours. I have been plenty successful, and as you can probably attest to, some success is from hard work, and some is just luck and timing. Pretending the circumstances today aren't vastly different than they were when you were 25 is quintessential ostrich syndrome.

 

[mthoopsfan]

You’re arguing against a position I never took. I never said people should be given anything, and I never said effort doesn’t matter. I’m saying the economic structure changed, which is a factual claim, not a political one.

Acknowledging that housing, tuition, and retirement risk shifted dramatically over the last few decades isn’t “liberal,” it’s basic economics. People still have to figure it out and work hard, just like they always have. The difference is the same level of effort now buys less stability than it used to, which is why the conversation even exists.

So no, it’s not about frustration or wanting something for nothing. It’s about recognizing that the rules of the game changed whether we like it or not. Ignoring that doesn’t make people tougher, it just means we’re refusing to look at the landscape honestly.

I would not describe myself as a liberal either. I’m right of center politically, but I also understand economics well enough to call things as they are. A lot of what you’re saying seems rooted in your personal experience and how the world looked from your vantage point, which isn’t necessarily how most people experience it today.

I think your perspective is common among older men who came up in a different economic environment. If many of them suddenly found themselves 25 again trying to build a life in today’s landscape, they might be pretty surprised at how far the same level of “effort” actually goes.

And for clarification, I am not in the Millennial/Gen Z age group, nor am I in yours. I have been plenty successful, and as you can probably attest to, some success is from hard work, and some is just luck and timing. Pretending the circumstances today aren't vastly different than they were when you were 25 is quintessential ostrich syndrome.

Again, I don't care what the circumstances are now, compared to earlier days. That is different discussion. I said some of the younger generations don't go after things as hard as they should and expect more things to come to them. You then used the "excuse" of frustration. That is not a valid excuse. Everyone gets frustrated, but one has to figure out how to move forward anyway, if you want to. get to towards success.

Circumstances may be different now, but some of those circumstances make it easier to get ahead. All the of the circumstances have not gotten harder. You aren't recognizing that. For example, getting into aspects of technology have made things easier and quicker for some to get ahead, and get way ahead, faster. We'll see how much AI changes that.

If I was 25 now, I would go into something different and believe I would get ahead bigger and faster than I did before. There are many more opportunities and good areas now, in my view. Again, more people are chasing the best parts of the pie, I have read.

If a young person told me they were frustrated because some things were harder, I would not hire them.

 

[kemajic]

I think your perspective is common among older men who came up in a different economic environment. If many of them suddenly found themselves 25 again trying to build a life in today’s landscape, they might be pretty surprised at how far the same level of “effort” actually goes.

Daunting, actually. And glad we were 25 when we were. Carving out a career in today's world is scary to think about. The environment is part of it; the other part is that we have reduced capability to generate that energy required to succeed that we had at 25.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

Again, I don't care what the circumstances are now, compared to earlier days. That is different discussion.

Yes, the discussion he was posting about.

 

[mthoopsfan]

Yes, the discussion he was posting about.

But not the one I started, and he responded to. You need to pay better attention.

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

But not the one I started, and he responded to. You need to pay better attention.

No, not the one you morphed to when he put holes in the one you started. Keep up.