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BOTH Numbers Don't Lie

M

Mick Belker

Well-known member
Egriz:
1,300,000 posts for the football forum, 164,100 posts to the MBB/WBB forum.
That's 12.62% of the former.

I thought it was just me. Seems to be a widely held opinion. Its still alive and well at the Montana Class C high school level, but what else is there to do in those one horse towns? Check out the attendance figures of BSC games. Probably similar to local high school attendance figures in those college towns.

No, I didn't watch the scat game despite it being broadcast on MTN, FOR FREE! Those wondering what can be done to increase attendance at Griz games might want to look at the broader picture.

Basketball is relatively irrelevant.
 
The truth is a bitch.

Well, of the subset of the population that post anything, then the subset of that subset of posters who bother to post about basketball, I'd say there that don't give a rats ass about basketball in general, or Griz basketball in particular, regardless of gender.

We just had the intra- state game, drawing 5,766. Lots of empty seats. If there was such enthusiasm, there should be no problem sell theing out Dahlberg or the Brick every time. Feel free to postulate what you will, oh wise one.
🙊🙉🙈.
 
For years I have wondered what happened. We used to pack the arena for both MBB and WBB back in the day. Student section was middle courtside. We were loud and rowdy.

Seriously - what happened?

Other D1 schools still draw good crowds...
 
We've had this discussion probably a million times over the past decade on this and other boards.

I grew up going to Griz games as a youth, in the 80's and my parents had season tickets for us and them. I was then a vastly bigger basketball fan than I was ever football. That is in part why I still participate heavily on the board, and if I was in Missoula I would have season tickets.

Here is a synopsis of the issues:

1. Bungled renovation that removed the aura of the old fieldhouse. Leaving one of the most antiseptic experiences and all the feel of a mausoleum at times.
2. Loss of student support that pre-dated the renovation. Change in school calendar (intersession), ticketing, location, etc.
3. Alienation of long time supporters with re-allocation of season tickets and cost. Changed who was at games and where.
4. Mediocre basketball or at least lack of elite success beyond BSC.
5. Unpopular decisions that pushed more fans out the door. North Bleachers, inability to create atmosphere that brings younger fans in the gate. No general admission.
6. Scheduling (watering down of BSC) and greater amount of choices during the winter. Distance and time makes it difficult for non-local to travel. Games are in-conflict w/ other local events.
7. Media deal allows community to watch games on TV in Missoula.
8. Not a centralized must see event attitude like football. Program has struggled to spread message, get people in the door.

There are more, but it is Monday morning and my brain isn't operating at full speed yet.
 
Grizfan-24 said:
We've had this discussion probably a million times over the past decade on this and other boards.

I grew up going to Griz games as a youth, in the 80's and my parents had season tickets for us and them. I was then a vastly bigger basketball fan than I was ever football. That is in part why I still participate heavily on the board, and if I was in Missoula I would have season tickets.

Here is a synopsis of the issues:

1. Bungled renovation that removed the aura of the old fieldhouse. Leaving one of the most antiseptic experiences and all the feel of a mausoleum at times.
2. Loss of student support that pre-dated the renovation. Change in school calendar (intersession), ticketing, location, etc.
3. Alienation of long time supporters with re-allocation of season tickets and cost. Changed who was at games and where.
4. Mediocre basketball or at least lack of elite success beyond BSC.
5. Unpopular decisions that pushed more fans out the door. North Bleachers, inability to create atmosphere that brings younger fans in the gate. No general admission.
6. Scheduling (watering down of BSC) and greater amount of choices during the winter. Distance and time makes it difficult for non-local to travel. Games are in-conflict w/ other local events.
7. Media deal allows community to watch games on TV in Missoula.
8. Not a centralized must see event attitude like football. Program has struggled to spread message, get people in the door.

There are more, but it is Monday morning and my brain isn't operating at full speed yet.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty inclusive and accurate list.
 
Yeah, it's not like back in the 80's, yet alone into the 90's. I remember that before a game at Dahlberg there'd be three to four hundred students awaiting outside the auditorium waiting for the doors to open. Once they were, mad ecstasy rush to the student section and first come first serve the sitting. Man, those were the good o' dayz.

What happened?
 
Prior to 1995, there were 2 or 3 inch advertisements in the Missoulian sports page advertising the upcoming basketball games. After the 1995 ncaa championship game win, it appeared to me that the UM athletic department decided to capitalize on it and heavily promote the football game reducing the budget for basketball and other sports. Football became the cash cow. Basketball advertisements became smaller and sometimes put in the obituary page. Attendance started to decline after then change to semesters, but this largest percentage decline happened after 1995 with the reduction in advertising for basketball and 1995 football championship. Average attendance dropped around 1,200 fans per game from 1995 until the remodel year (5,688 in 1995 and 4,455 in 1998). Attendance dropped only around 600 per game from semester change to 1995. Seems to indicate Football and the significant reduction in promoting basket after 1995.

After that, I agree with most of what Grizfan-24. But, attendance has stayed the same from the start of remodel season and through 2020. After Covid, attendance started to decline again. But how attendance is calculated changed with the scanners.
 
WyomingGrizFan said:
Yeah, it's not like back in the 80's, yet alone into the 90's. I remember that before a game at Dahlberg there'd be three to four hundred students awaiting outside the auditorium waiting for the doors to open. Once they were, mad ecstasy rush to the student section and first come first serve the sitting. Man, those were the good o' dayz.

What happened?
Click to expand...
That was early 90s. 1997-98 I sat across from the student section and there were empty seats.
 
TrueGriz said:
Prior to 1995, there were 2 or 3 inch advertisements in the Missoulian sports page advertising the upcoming basketball games. After the 1995 ncaa championship game win, it appeared to me that the UM athletic department decided to capitalize on it and heavily promote the football game reducing the budget for basketball and other sports. Football became the cash cow. Basketball advertisements became smaller and sometimes put in the obituary page. Attendance started to decline after then change to semesters, but this largest percentage decline happened after 1995 with the reduction in advertising for basketball and 1995 football championship. Average attendance dropped around 1,200 fans per game from 1995 until the remodel year (5,688 in 1995 and 4,455 in 1998). Attendance dropped only around 600 per game from semester change to 1995. Seems to indicate Football and the significant reduction in promoting basket after 1995.

After that, I agree with most of what Grizfan-24. But, attendance has stayed the same from the start of remodel season and through 2020. After Covid, attendance started to decline again. But how attendance is calculated changed with the scanners.
Click to expand...

The 1995-1998 period may have had the largest decline, but the period with the largest percentage would be from 2020 to now. Maybe due to the death of the Missoulian as a reputable newspaper and maybe just a few to many old fans died of covid.
 
TrueGriz said:
The 1995-1998 period may have had the largest decline, but the period with the largest percentage would be from 2020 to now. Maybe due to the death of the Missoulian as a reputable newspaper and maybe just a few to many old fans died of covid.
Click to expand...
Forgot to add the loss of the GA section on the north end the past 2 or 3 years for the decline since 2020 and significant increase in costs to watch the basketball games as GSA dues have increased.
 
Grizfan-24 and TrueGriz have pretty much defined the issues behind the decline and fall of Griz Basketball, IMHO.👍 I knew it had been discussed before but specifics escaped me. There had been some discussion about poor attendance and what could be done to fill those seats. After seeing there were about 1,200 empty seats, FOR THE SCAT-GRIZ GAMES, I thought the subject needed to be re-examined. Maybe Haslam and Bodnar, et al, need to address the issue.

I figured the Kool Aid drinkers knee jerk response would happen. Its not being a bad fan/alum to point out what is obvious for all to see, IF you open your eyes. The fairy tale 'The Emperor's New Clothes' provide the idiom for "logical fallacies," "pluralistic ignorance or collective illusions." (Wiki)
 
We watch a lot of college basketball games on TV. Except for Duke, Kansas and a handful of other venues, half empty arenas are the norm in today’s world, not the exception. We watched a UCLA game in mid-December where there was virtually no one present above midway in the first level. Lots of reasons, I suppose, but, to me, the fact that most every Div 1 game is televised is a big reason. Why drive all the way across town, find (and pay for!) a parking spot, deal with a lot of pushing and shoving people, stand in line for expensive not-very-good concessions, sit in an uncomfortable pricey seat (surrounded by people who might not be rooting for the same team you are) to watch a game tha usually runs less than 1 1/2 hours??? Takes longer to get there and back. Why not stay home and watch it in the comfort of your family room?
 
Grizfan-24 said:
We've had this discussion probably a million times over the past decade on this and other boards.

I grew up going to Griz games as a youth, in the 80's and my parents had season tickets for us and them. I was then a vastly bigger basketball fan than I was ever football. That is in part why I still participate heavily on the board, and if I was in Missoula I would have season tickets.

Here is a synopsis of the issues:

1. Bungled renovation that removed the aura of the old fieldhouse. Leaving one of the most antiseptic experiences and all the feel of a mausoleum at times.
2. Loss of student support that pre-dated the renovation. Change in school calendar (intersession), ticketing, location, etc.
3. Alienation of long time supporters with re-allocation of season tickets and cost. Changed who was at games and where.
4. Mediocre basketball or at least lack of elite success beyond BSC.
5. Unpopular decisions that pushed more fans out the door. North Bleachers, inability to create atmosphere that brings younger fans in the gate. No general admission.
6. Scheduling (watering down of BSC) and greater amount of choices during the winter. Distance and time makes it difficult for non-local to travel. Games are in-conflict w/ other local events.
7. Media deal allows community to watch games on TV in Missoula.
8. Not a centralized must see event attitude like football. Program has struggled to spread message, get people in the door.

There are more, but it is Monday morning and my brain isn't operating at full speed yet.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. Admittedly, I don't visit the bb thread as much as I should...
 
The younger generations have many more options for entertainment now than they did in the 80's and 90's. The allure of a basketball game is far, far down the list of those options. As 68 noted, basketball is now a tv sport for most. Football has the large social scene attached.
 
The student section for the game on Saturday was well attended. There are plenty (maybe all) BSC schools that would love to get that kind of student attendance at a game. Plus the students looked to be highly engaged in the game. Good to see. Nothing will probably ever replicate what it was like back in the days of the Zoo or even the 10 years or so after Michael Ray and on through the Montgomery, Morrill and Blaine Taylor eras. But still, that was a nice student section on Saturday.
 
I believe this is a "problem" that affects the Big Sky Conf. in general. Below are attendance total (all-home games) numbers for all Big Sky Schools; for specific break-downs, check the Big Sky stats page. Sadly, the Big Sky doesn't even bother posting WBB attendance numbers (which UM leads by a large margin).
TOTAL ATTENDANCE 2024-5
1. Montana: 22,265
2.Weber State: 22069
3 MSU: 17,568
4. Idaho: 13,847
5. Northern Colorado: 11,111
6. ISU: 10,557
7. EWU: 10,458
8. NAU: 7273
9. SAC: 5312
10. PSU: 4271
P.S. The per-game numbers for the bottom 3 schools barely cracks 500 per game.

Yes: Numbers do not lie. At this point in the season, the all-games Montana men's hoops total is LESS than one UM home football game.
 
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