Why Griz fell behind NDSU

[brewskis]

Bohl was an excellent coach and he built them into a juggernaut.

While he did that he did a phenomenal job of mentoring young coaches.

NDSU has continued to hire internally within that coaching tree. All of those coaches have done a great job running the program. I think it really is as simple as that.

We cannot compare what we have to what they have. Nobody else has done what they have. SDSU and the bobcats rise is a little more "grass roots", even tho Stigg is a little Bohl Lite.

Our challenge is to prove that last year wasnt an anomaly and that we can regularly do that shit.

 

[kemajic]

I don't know if I would call them falling behind..SDSU has more like just caught up.since 2011the bison have won 9 championships. SDSU has won the last two and the 2022 season sdsu beat ndsu and if I remember right the head coach had already announced he was leaving and they lost a bunch to the portal and to injuries...that and I guess they stopped selling beer in the dome and that cut down on fans......

Didn't SDSU win five straight?

 

[gotgame75]

Bohl was an excellent coach and he built them into a juggernaut.

While he did that he did a phenomenal job of mentoring young coaches.

NDSU has continued to hire internally within that coaching tree. All of those coaches have done a great job running the program. I think it really is as simple as that.

We cannot compare what we have to what they have. Nobody else has done what they have. SDSU and the bobcats rise is a little more "grass roots", even tho Stigg is a little Bohl Lite.

Our challenge is to prove that last year wasnt an anomaly and that we can regularly do that shit.

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

 

[mthoopsfan]

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

Huh? We beat NDSU last season. We were close to SDSU until we fumbled in the 3d Q. We may not get there this year, but we were right there last year. We have better coaches. The coaching staff is experienced but not old. It is impressive that Hauck got us back to the championship game as fast as he did.

 

[retiredpopo]

Didn't SDSU win five straight?

they have only won the natty the last two years 22 and 23. they were runner up in 2020. bison won it 2011-2019 and in 2021 and runner up in 2022.

 

[retiredpopo]

FCS Football Championship History | NCAA.com

The complete list of NCAA Football FCS champions from the first season to today.

www.ncaa.com

 

[kemajic]

they have only won the natty the last two years 22 and 23. they were runner up in 2020. bison won it 2011-2019 and in 2021 and runner up in 2022.

I'm talking about head on games.

 

[retiredpopo]

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

if Bobby retired you would be doing a nation wide search. On the other hand pretty sure Phencie would be a good choice.Green has done great with the backs maybe he would be a good OC. Most likely we will be facing one or both of the dakotas come the playoffs. I think we will fare well to some people's disappointment. Some will be saying we just got lucky some will be saying the other team was not the same due to injuries and probably a few other things..

I'm talking about head on games.

I think until this year the rabbits had won the last 5 meetings if you include that weird covid season where they played in April..

 

[brewskis]

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

Maybe Pease gets a chance? It's hard to say.

We are not going to match what Bohl did at NDSU, if we were it would have happened already.

Honestly, Im more interested in watching how this season ends and how we reload next year. We graduate a ton of guys at the end of this year, next year will have a lot of new faces.

 

[Allezchat]

As of now, that challenge looks like a pipe dream. It doesn't look to me like, from both a talent and coaching standpoint, we are anywhere near the Dakotas.

Where is the young coaching talent on this staff? If Bobby retired, who on the currennt staff would you be confident in turning to?

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

Just wait till he gets his guys in there.

 

[ElrodGrizzly]

If prior to Hauck 2.0, someone had told you we'd appear in one championship over 7 seasons (in a historically weak FCS), would that meet your definition of success?

7 seasons is stretching it. There was no covid season, and 2024 is his seventh season, it hasn't even gotten to the end of conference play yet.

When Bobby Hauck came back and the Griz had fallen to completely unranked, if you told me that within 5 seasons we would be back to playing for a national title, I would have been ecstatic. And so would any honest Griz fan.

 

[406football]

I am curious why you choose NDSU vs SDSU or ?

NDSU was the team that started to dominate the 2010's. SDSU is still very very good, but they still haven't done what NDSU was able to do.

 

[Money!]

NDSU also had incredibly talented players. 2021 team’s offense put 10/11 into the NFL. Not sure if thats recruiting or development but that’s something that is nearly impossible to replicate

 

[PTGrizzly]

7 seasons is stretching it. There was no covid season, and 2024 is his seventh season, it hasn't even gotten to the end of conference play yet.

When Bobby Hauck came back and the Griz had fallen to completely unranked, if you told me that within 5 seasons we would be back to playing for a national title, I would have been ecstatic. And so would any honest Griz fan.

I just can’t agree with you here.

This isn’t some program that just fell to the depths of college football.

This is a program with the best stadium in FCS football. This is a program with probably the most rabid fans in FCS football. This is a program with one of the best histories in FCS football. This is a program where the recruiting advantages over their peers are so extreme, they compete more against Mountain West teams for recruits than Big Sky teams. This is a program that should expect to be competing for national championships every single year, because that’s how good the advantages are over everybody else that could be a peer.

While of course I’m ecstatic about being a national contender, the idea that we shouldn’t have expected it within 5 years is ludicrous. And don’t discount that extra Covid year of eligibility, of experience, of strength and mental maturity. That counts. But I digress, being a national contender here should be the rule, not the exception. If we’re being honest, completely honest, there are 4 teams that should ALWAYS be in the talks of the top teams, and UM is one of them.

So yeah, while I’m excited to be a contender, and will always enjoy it, we best not forget that it is exactly where this program should be with all of its advantages, and if it isn’t, then there’s big problems.

 

[ElrodGrizzly]

I just can’t agree with you here.

This isn’t some program that just fell to the depths of college football.

This is a program with the best stadium in FCS football. This is a program with probably the most rabid fans in FCS football. This is a program with one of the best histories in FCS football. This is a program where the recruiting advantages over their peers are so extreme, they compete more against Mountain West teams for recruits than Big Sky teams. This is a program that should expect to be competing for national championships every single year, because that’s how good the advantages are over everybody else that could be a peer.

While of course I’m ecstatic about being a national contender, the idea that we shouldn’t have expected it within 5 years is ludicrous. And don’t discount that extra Covid year of eligibility, of experience, of strength and mental maturity. That counts. But I digress, being a national contender here should be the rule, not the exception. If we’re being honest, completely honest, there are 4 teams that should ALWAYS be in the talks of the top teams, and UM is one of them.

So yeah, while I’m excited to be a contender, and will always enjoy it, we best not forget that it is exactly where this program should be with all of its advantages, and if it isn’t, then there’s big problems.

I mean, I'd first say I was responding to a question that was posed. When Bobby came back, if someone said "Hey, PT, within five seasons we will be playing for the national championship," you would have said "Awesome, glad we will stop going backwards after these last 6 years!"

I don't agree that we have the same level of advantages that you are saying here. I know that this has been talked about ad nauseum on the board, and I'm not trying to push you into a debate about just how elite our recruiting advantages are. I think you and I could politely agree to disagree on that, as we won't convince each other.

To your bigger point, I hear often people saying "with our advantages like our stadium we should be a contender every year." Wa-Griz opened in 1986. Since that time, there has never been a time where we competed in the national championship, or realistically had a shot at the national championship, every year. By framing the conversation that way, you are saying that right now we should achieve a bar that has never been achieved before.

NDSU's run of success skewed peoples' opinions on what constitutes success at the FCS level. Until them, no team at the D1 level has been able to do that in modern times. Teams rise and fall, have good periods and down periods. They have national championship runs and reloading years. Would I love for us to be in the national title game every year or the semis every year? Absolutely. Only one team has ever shown they can do that for more than a few years at a time, though, and it has never happened for Montana. I'm not going to set a standard for success as one that has never been achieved.

As I've said many times, I look for trend lines to see how things are going. When he came back, we had missed the playoffs for 2 years and taken 6th and 8th in the Big Sky. I'd say the below is a pretty good trend line. Its going in the direction we want, and it doesn't happen overnight.

2018	Bobby Hauck	6–5	4–4	T–6th
2019	Bobby Hauck	10–4	6–2	T–3rd	L NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2020	Bobby Hauck	2–0	0–0[n 2]	[n 2]
2021	Bobby Hauck	10–3	6–2	T–3rd	L NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2022	Bobby Hauck	8–5	4–4	6th	L NCAA Division I Second Round
2023	Bobby Hauck	13-2	7-1	1st	L NCAA Division I Championship

 

[PTGrizzly]

I mean, I'd first say I was responding to a question that was posed. When Bobby came back, if someone said "Hey, PT, within five seasons we will be playing for the national championship," you would have said "Awesome, glad we will stop going backwards after these last 6 years!"

I don't agree that we have the same level of advantages that you are saying here. I know that this has been talked about ad nauseum on the board, and I'm not trying to push you into a debate about just how elite our recruiting advantages are. I think you and I could politely agree to disagree on that, as we won't convince each other.

To your bigger point, I hear often people saying "with our advantages like our stadium we should be a contender every year." Wa-Griz opened in 1986. Since that time, there has never been a time where we competed in the national championship, or realistically had a shot at the national championship, every year. By framing the conversation that way, you are saying that right now we should achieve a bar that has never been achieved before.

NDSU's run of success skewed peoples' opinions on what constitutes success at the FCS level. Until them, no team at the D1 level has been able to do that in modern times. Teams rise and fall, have good periods and down periods. They have national championship runs and reloading years. Would I love for us to be in the national title game every year or the semis every year? Absolutely. Only one team has ever shown they can do that for more than a few years at a time, though, and it has never happened for Montana. I'm not going to set a standard for success as one that has never been achieved.

As I've said many times, I look for trend lines to see how things are going. When he came back, we had missed the playoffs for 2 years and taken 6th and 8th in the Big Sky. I'd say the below is a pretty good trend line. Its going in the direction we want, and it doesn't happen overnight.

2018	Bobby Hauck	6–5	4–4	T–6th
2019	Bobby Hauck	10–4	6–2	T–3rd	L NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2020	Bobby Hauck	2–0	0–0[n 2]	[n 2]
2021	Bobby Hauck	10–3	6–2	T–3rd	L NCAA Division I Quarterfinal
2022	Bobby Hauck	8–5	4–4	6th	L NCAA Division I Second Round
2023	Bobby Hauck	13-2	7-1	1st	L NCAA Division I Championship

I don’t think you need to make the championship game to be considered a contender. I mean, shit happens in the playoffs. A true contender can lose in the first or second round. But from Joe Glenn to end of Bobby’s first tenure, the Griz were contenders every year. The Bison are contenders every year. SDSU is. MSU is building towards that. UM is too. That should be the standard, not the exception.

Regarding the “advantages”, who in the FCS has better? NDSU, SDSU, and who? UND and USD don’t, even with FCOA. So who has better overall advantages? The list is quite small.

 

[ElrodGrizzly]

I don’t think you need to make the championship game to be considered a contender. I mean, shit happens in the playoffs. A true contender can lose in the first or second round. But from Joe Glenn to end of Bobby’s first tenure, the Griz were contenders every year. The Bison are contenders every year. SDSU is. MSU is building towards that. UM is too. That should be the standard, not the exception.

Regarding the “advantages”, who in the FCS has better? NDSU, SDSU, and who? UND and USD don’t, even with FCOA. So who has better overall advantages? The list is quite small.

To your first point, then we have done that. We are in the playoffs every year and contending. Akem and Cam aren't hurt, maybe the JMU game is different and we are in to the semis. You're right, shit happens in the playoffs, and teams go on runs. My statement is always that the first goal is to make the playoffs, hopefully with a good seed, then the next goal is just to win each game from there. We are doing that, and our playoff runs are getting deeper.

To your second point, we'd have to define what advantages you are talking about. I'm happy to just agree to disagree, as I think we will probably just not be on the same page, but I'm happy to share my perspective. The best recruits in the country are not from Montana, and that is just factual. Proximity to home is commonly one of the biggest factors in recruiting choices for student athletes. Kids want to play in front of their families. It isn't easy or cheap to get in and out of Missoula and watch your family member play if you are from out of state. Over the last few years, NIL is becoming the biggest factor. Saban and his wife have said that by the time he retired, every kid was asking how much money they could get. We have never been able to do "Full Cost of Attendance" like the Dakota schools, which was essentially NIL in 2015. We certainly don't have a huge pool of NIL money now in comparison to what I've heard from other schools.

So, right away, the two biggest factors to a huge percentage of recruits are areas that we have a natural disadvantage in. It is also cold AF here. Lots of kids don't want that. And that's even before you get into the perception of Montana that a lot of people of color out of state have. If your point is that we are competing with recruits with the Mountain West, plenty of those schools have fancy locker rooms and nice weight rooms too. I don't think any kid coming out of high school right now cares that we have a rich history from 20 years ago. I just don't see the same advantages in recruiting that you see. I think this is actually a difficult place to recruit.

Like I said, though, no disrespect. I could totally be wrong. This is all subjective opinion, and I'm happy to hear your thoughts or let it go and agree to disagree.

 

[PTGrizzly]

To your first point, then we have done that. We are in the playoffs every year and contending. Akem and Cam aren't hurt, maybe the JMU game is different and we are in to the semis. You're right, shit happens in the playoffs, and teams go on runs. My statement is always that the first goal is to make the playoffs, hopefully with a good seed, then the next goal is just to win each game from there. We are doing that, and our playoff runs are getting deeper.

To your second point, we'd have to define what advantages you are talking about. I'm happy to just agree to disagree, as I think we will probably just not be on the same page, but I'm happy to share my perspective. The best recruits in the country are not from Montana, and that is just factual. Proximity to home is commonly one of the biggest factors in recruiting choices for student athletes. Kids want to play in front of their families. It isn't easy or cheap to get in and out of Missoula and watch your family member play if you are from out of state. Over the last few years, NIL is becoming the biggest factor. Saban and his wife have said that by the time he retired, every kid was asking how much money they could get. We have never been able to do "Full Cost of Attendance" like the Dakota schools, which was essentially NIL in 2015. We certainly don't have a huge pool of NIL money now in comparison to what I've heard from other schools.

So, right away, the two biggest factors to a huge percentage of recruits are areas that we have a natural disadvantage in. It is also cold AF here. Lots of kids don't want that. And that's even before you get into the perception of Montana that a lot of people of color out of state have. If your point is that we are competing with recruits with the Mountain West, plenty of those schools have fancy locker rooms and nice weight rooms too. I don't think any kid coming out of high school right now cares that we have a rich history from 20 years ago. I just don't see the same advantages in recruiting that you see. I think this is actually a difficult place to recruit.

Like I said, though, no disrespect. I could totally be wrong. This is all subjective opinion, and I'm happy to hear your thoughts or let it go and agree to disagree.

Lol. There is a difference between having a team good enough to make the playoffs and good enough to contend. You’re welcome to have the opinion that those teams were contenders, but you’d be wrong. Last year, yes. Before that, no. The line play wasn’t good enough. Shit, as an example, that time MSU went to the championship they weren’t true contenders. Just caught a hot streak.

Don’t talk Saban and the FBS when we’re talking FCS recruiting. What Bama does, and what the FCS schools do, and deal with, are very different.

What FCS schools have a significant recruiting advantage over UM? What reasons are there that UM shouldn’t be a top team every single year? Maybe you’re okay with low expectations. Happy to squeak by mediocre BSC teams, maybe win the conference, maybe get lucky and go on a hot streak in the playoffs but if not, oh well! I just don’t think that’s good enough. It’s good enough for Idaho for sure. It’s not good enough for UM.

 

[Mousegriz]

I'm not as excited as some the Griz are a top 16 (24??) team in a 3rd tier college football division. The trend Elrod pointed out shows a couple 6th place conference finishes the last in 2022. A couple 3rds. One 1st. Couple quarterfinals losses and last year's surprising run.

The narrative still seems "at least better than Stitt and Delaney" "making the playoffs" "Engstrom and Krakauer sure screwed things up a decade ago".

 

[ElrodGrizzly]

Lol. There is a difference between having a team good enough to make the playoffs and good enough to contend. You’re welcome to have the opinion that those teams were contenders, but you’d be wrong. Last year, yes. Before that, no. The line play wasn’t good enough. Shit, as an example, that time MSU went to the championship they weren’t true contenders. Just caught a hot streak.

Don’t talk Saban and the FBS when we’re talking FCS recruiting. What Bama does, and what the FCS schools do, and deal with, are very different.

What FCS schools have a significant recruiting advantage over UM? What reasons are there that UM shouldn’t be a top team every single year? Maybe you’re okay with low expectations. Happy to squeak by mediocre BSC teams, maybe win the conference, maybe get lucky and go on a hot streak in the playoffs but if not, oh well! I just don’t think that’s good enough. It’s good enough for Idaho for sure. It’s not good enough for UM.

Okay, can you give me anything concrete about what makes a contender? It seems like you're just going off of a subjective opinion of whether or not you personally thought they were a contender. You make the playoffs, and especially in the quarter finals, you are by definition contending for a championship.

I used an example of a D1 coach talking about how kids want NIL. That is absolutely applicable. You realize Sac State just recently announced a 7 figure NIL program, right? Kids wanting to get paid is not unique to the FBS>

As for your last paragraph, you just ignored everything I pointed out. This is why we should just agree to disagree. You seem to think we have advantages, but you cannot name them. I said we have disadvantages, and I named them.

What FCS Schools have an advantage over us in recruiting? Many closer to a major city, major airport. Any of them with local high schools that play higher level football than Montana. Any FCS school with more NIL Money. I know what Sac has announced. I know Davis has some heavy hitters donating. Again, man, you just ignored every point I made.

Lastly, you're just misconstruing me. I'm not saying I have low expectations, I am saying the trend line is clearly going in the right direction since Hauck came back, and I'm hoping it continues to.