3 3 5 defense

[uofmman1122]

I only get "prickly" when posters don't post correct information or misrepresent reality - as you have.

They made substantive adjustments and you all but say it above.

2nd half und adjustments won that game for them. Lack of similar adjustments by the Griz lost that game...

Those are the cold, hard facts.

I'm not saying that, though. They literally ran the same offense until they had a lead, save for like 2 plays, and the ones on the final drive were not particularly effective, save for one Romfo run that got a 1st down.

They just played better than we did.

 

[SoldierGriz]

I'm not saying that, though. They literally ran the same offense until they had a lead, save for like 2 plays, and the ones on the final drive were not particularly effective, save for one Romfo run that got a 1st down.

They just played better than we did.

Sure...no und adjustments made. Got it.

There is no eye-roll emoji strong enough...

 

[uofmman1122]

Sure...no und adjustments made. Got it.

There is no eye-roll emoji strong enough...

Maybe mentally? I don't think they changed a whole lot of what they were doing, and if they did, it doesn't really show up on film. I'm with Peyton Manning when it comes to things like that, the coaches didn't spend an entire week on a rigorous and detailed gameplan only to scrap it and make changes in 10 minutes in the locker room.

It looked to me like they started winning on the LOS on both sides, and we made a lot of execution errors that compounded.

 

[GottaluvGriz]

One thing I’ve thought about since game one this year is that the 3-3-5 defense is fairly exotic. Not many teams run it from High School, JC, FCS or FBS.
With us recruiting quite a few players out of the portal to fill openings this year, it may take some time for the new guys to figure out what their 1/11th is in a 3-3-5 defense. Many have not played in this defensive formation their entire football career. It’s probably why we have people out of position and taking bad angles to tackle. It also comes across as poor tackling too. I’m confident the coaches will get our team there, but it sure looks different from Last year. (Not to mention the players we are replacing from last years defense).

 

[catgrizfan]

One thing I’ve thought about since game one this year is that the 3-3-5 defense is fairly exotic. Not many teams run it from High School, JC, FCS or FBS.
With us recruiting quite a few players out of the portal to fill openings this year, it may take some time for the new guys to figure out what their 1/11th is in a 3-3-5 defense. Many have not played in this defensive formation their entire football career. It’s probably why we have people out of position and taking bad angles to tackle. It also comes across as poor tackling too. I’m confident the coaches will get our team there, but it sure looks different from Last year. (Not to mention the players we are replacing from last years defense).

A buddy of mine (played for the Griz in the 90s) was talking about how people underestimate just how important Grub was in the 3-3-5. He consistently commanded a double team, giving a numbers advantage to the defense. Difficult to replace a guy like that. We were spoiled - he should have been on a P5 squad. Add to that your point of a lack of familiarity in the system and I can see why there seems to be a step back in execution thus far. I have no doubt it will get cleaned up. I don't care how we look now - I care about how we look in November.

 

[GottaluvGriz]

A buddy of mine (played for the Griz in the 90s) was talking about how people underestimate just how important Grub was in the 3-3-5. He consistently commanded a double team, giving a numbers advantage to the defense. Difficult to replace a guy like that. We were spoiled - he should have been on a P5 squad. Add to that your point of a lack of familiarity in the system and I can see why there seems to be a step back in execution thus far. I have no doubt it will get cleaned up. I don't care how we look now - I care about how we look in November.

Absolutely agree!

 

[Skookum-Jim]

One thing I’ve thought about since game one this year is that the 3-3-5 defense is fairly exotic. Not many teams run it from High School, JC, FCS or FBS.
With us recruiting quite a few players out of the portal to fill openings this year, it may take some time for the new guys to figure out what their 1/11th is in a 3-3-5 defense. Many have not played in this defensive formation their entire football career. It’s probably why we have people out of position and taking bad angles to tackle. It also comes across as poor tackling too. I’m confident the coaches will get our team there, but it sure looks different from Last year. (Not to mention the players we are replacing from last years defense).

A buddy of mine (played for the Griz in the 90s) was talking about how people underestimate just how important Grub was in the 3-3-5. He consistently commanded a double team, giving a numbers advantage to the defense. Difficult to replace a guy like that. We were spoiled - he should have been on a P5 squad. Add to that your point of a lack of familiarity in the system and I can see why there seems to be a step back in execution thus far. I have no doubt it will get cleaned up. I don't care how we look now - I care about how we look in November.

I'm no coach but from my understanding you can think of our 3-3-5 sceme as just a flexible 3-4 with a hybred lb that can line up on the LOS or the backfield. It's flexible and is great when you have better athletes than your opposition which we usually do. You can disguise the blitz and do alot of twisting. It fits well with the thumper safety type of athletes we always recruit. But you certainly need a good nose tackle or 3 tech big body.

 

[RobGriz]

I'm not sure UND really changed their game plan or made many adjustments all that much.

They just completely out-executed us from the 2nd half kickoff.

Bingo.

 

[The.Real.2506]

One thing I’ve thought about since game one this year is that the 3-3-5 defense is fairly exotic. Not many teams run it from High School, JC, FCS or FBS.
With us recruiting quite a few players out of the portal to fill openings this year, it may take some time for the new guys to figure out what their 1/11th is in a 3-3-5 defense. Many have not played in this defensive formation their entire football career. It’s probably why we have people out of position and taking bad angles to tackle. It also comes across as poor tackling too. I’m confident the coaches will get our team there, but it sure looks different from Last year. (Not to mention the players we are replacing from last years defense).

New Mexico runs it, maybe you could get some transfers from them

 

[HelenaHandBasket]

New Mexico runs it, maybe you could get some transfers from them

Better than their receivers that couldn't seal the deal.

 

[horribilisfan8184]

Soldier Griz has 5 posts screaming UND made 2nd half adjustments, without listing one single adjustment made. I have to agree with UofM the single most effective adjustment they made was to begin playing with discipline and determination. Why don't you post what UND was doing as you claim with 1st half video clips, and 2nd half video showing each adjustment. Should be fairly simple to do if you watched the game, ie., show us the cold, hard facts.

 

[SoldierGriz]

Soldier Griz has 5 posts screaming UND made 2nd half adjustments, without listing one single adjustment made. I have to agree with UofM the single most effective adjustment they made was to begin playing with discipline and determination. Why don't you post what UND was doing as you claim with 1st half video clips, and 2nd half video showing each adjustment. Should be fairly simple to do if you watched the game, ie., show us the cold, hard facts.

Sure, I'll just cut up some tape and narrate for you.

Soldier Griz has 5 posts screaming UND made 2nd half adjustments, without listing one single adjustment made. I have to agree with UofM the single most effective adjustment they made was to begin playing with discipline and determination. Why don't you post what UND was doing as you claim with 1st half video clips, and 2nd half video showing each adjustment. Should be fairly simple to do if you watched the game, ie., show us the cold, hard facts.

Sure, I'll just cut up some tape and narrate for you.

You may have the time since your mom cuts the crust off your PB&Js.

SMH.

 

[garizzalies]

Soldier Griz has 5 posts screaming UND made 2nd half adjustments, without listing one single adjustment made. I have to agree with UofM the single most effective adjustment they made was to begin playing with discipline and determination. Why don't you post what UND was doing as you claim with 1st half video clips, and 2nd half video showing each adjustment. Should be fairly simple to do if you watched the game, ie., show us the cold, hard facts.

I thought this too at first (that UND didn’t really make an adjustment) but then I saw BH’s post game presser. He was asked about the UND qb running more in the second half. Apparently, UND’s qb did not run once in the first half but had several very significant runs in the second half including the 20 yard TD. BH said (paraphrasing) UM did not think UND would do that very much because they were so thin at QB but then UND changed at half and started running the QB more with keeps and designed runs, and although UM has a special defensive call for running QBs, it did not use it. Wish the reporter would have asked the follow up question: why didn’t UM also adjust and use that D call for a running QB?

 

[uofmman1122]

I thought this too at first (that UND didn’t really make an adjustment) but then I saw BH’s post game presser. He was asked about the UND qb running more in the second half. Apparently, UND’s qb did not run once in the first half but had several very significant runs in the second half including the 20 yard TD. BH said (paraphrasing) UM did not think UND would do that very much because they were so thin at QB but then UND changed at half and started running the QB more with keeps and designed runs, and although UM has a special defensive call for running QBs, it did not use it. Wish the reporter would have asked the follow up question: why didn’t UM also adjust and use that D call for a running QB?

That's not what happened and likely not what Bobby meant.

Romfo got 48 of his 57 yards on the ground on 3 plays:
29 yards on two pass plays where everyone was covered and containment broke down and he scrambled.
This is likely what Bobby was referring to. They didn't think he'd take off like that.

19 yards on a broken zone run play where he dropped the snap and had no other option.

He ran 4 keeps/designed runs in the entire 2nd half out of 45 plays.

They did the same things in the 2nd half they did in the 1st, just better. That's it. I know we want to look at the huge difference in the halves and assume they changed something drastically, but they didn't.

4 yards at a time running RPOs. Slow cuts we couldn't stop and our offense going completely cold.

 

[Wolf777]

That's not what happened and likely not what Bobby meant.

Romfo got 48 of his 57 yards on the ground on 3 plays:
29 yards on two pass plays where everyone was covered and containment broke down and he scrambled.
This is likely what Bobby was referring to. They didn't think he'd take off like that.

19 yards on a broken zone run play where he dropped the snap and had no other option.

He ran 4 keeps/designed runs in the entire 2nd half out of 45 plays.

They did the same things in the 2nd half they did in the 1st, just better. That's it. I know we want to look at the huge difference in the halves and assume they changed something drastically, but they didn't.

4 yards at a time running RPOs. Slow cuts we couldn't stop and our offense going completely cold.

I think people need to go back and look at some of the success they had on runs early in the game. They were executing well in the first quarter too. It was overshadowed by our hot start and ability to get off the field. They had some great runs early and instead of getting cute, just doubled down on the ground game in the second half. We shouldn’t have gotten complacent as easy as that first quarter went on the scoreboard.

 

[Griz Addict]

That's not what happened and likely not what Bobby meant.

Romfo got 48 of his 57 yards on the ground on 3 plays:
29 yards on two pass plays where everyone was covered and containment broke down and he scrambled.
This is likely what Bobby was referring to. They didn't think he'd take off like that.

19 yards on a broken zone run play where he dropped the snap and had no other option.

He ran 4 keeps/designed runs in the entire 2nd half out of 45 plays.

They did the same things in the 2nd half they did in the 1st, just better. That's it. I know we want to look at the huge difference in the halves and assume they changed something drastically, but they didn't.

4 yards at a time running RPOs. Slow cuts we couldn't stop and our offense going completely cold.

I don't know why Bobby wouldn't expect their QB to run. If I'm not mistaken he had 60+ rushing yards against Iowa St and was also the leading rusher.

If I remember correctly.

 

[garizzalies]

That's not what happened and likely not what Bobby meant.

Romfo got 48 of his 57 yards on the ground on 3 plays:
29 yards on two pass plays where everyone was covered and containment broke down and he scrambled.
This is likely what Bobby was referring to. They didn't think he'd take off like that.

19 yards on a broken zone run play where he dropped the snap and had no other option.

He ran 4 keeps/designed runs in the entire 2nd half out of 45 plays.

They did the same things in the 2nd half they did in the 1st, just better. That's it. I know we want to look at the huge difference in the halves and assume they changed something drastically, but they didn't.

4 yards at a time running RPOs. Slow cuts we couldn't stop and our offense going completely cold.

Nope, disagree. It is what happened. Straight from the horse’s mouth. Go back and listen to the last two mins of the presser. I’m taking BH’s words at face value and not guessing he meant something else.

Bubba, the UND coach, said it too. Right after half, during his interview, Bubba said they were going to get back to what they do best or words to that effect. Run the ball and not long drop backs or big passes and Griz had no sacks or pressure the second half. UND’s passes became quick hitters, unlike that horrible pick and a few other drop backs.

Thus it wasn’t just a few calls here or there, it was the entire approach. More qb runs less drop backs.

All those qb rushing yards and the 4 designed runs you mentioned came in the second half and at critical times. None in the first half. I believe at least one of those scrambles you are referencing was not a passing play at all, more like a draw.

The bigger issue is not that the UND adjusted after half (that seems obvious to me), it’s why the Griz did not. That’s the real point of the presser.

BH used the phrase “thin” at the qb position, as in, they didn’t think they would be calling any designed runs, not that “they didn't think he'd take off like that.” Sounds like they didn’t expect either. Otherwise they would have used the D call he referenced or a spy call. That’s the point. They can’t make that call after the snap. It’s got to come before, but they were not expecting it for some reason which seems so weird to me. What’s that saying, a tiger cannot change their stripes?

 

[uofmman1122]

Nope, disagree. It is what happened. Straight from the horse’s mouth. Go back and listen to the last two mins of the presser. I’m taking BH’s words at face value and not guessing he meant something else.

Bubba, the UND coach, said it too. Right after half, during his interview, Bubba said they were going to get back to what they do best or words to that effect. Run the ball and not long drop backs or big passes and Griz had no sacks or pressure the second half. UND’s passes became quick hitters, unlike that horrible pick and a few other drop backs.

Thus it wasn’t just a few calls here or there, it was the entire approach. More qb runs less drop backs.

All those qb rushing yards and the 4 designed runs you mentioned came in the second half and at critical times. None in the first half. I believe at least one of those scrambles you are referencing was not a passing play at all, more like a draw.

The bigger issue is not that the UND adjusted after half (that seems obvious to me), it’s why the Griz did not. That’s the real point of the presser.

BH used the phrase “thin” at the qb position, as in, they didn’t think they would be calling any designed runs, not that “they didn't think he'd take off like that.” Sounds like they didn’t expect either. Otherwise they would have used the D call he referenced or a spy call. That’s the point. They can’t make that call after the snap. It’s got to come before, but they were not expecting it for some reason which seems so weird to me. What’s that saying, a tiger cannot change their stripes?

Look, I really only got fired up about this because Soldier decided to be a giant dick for no reason, and I don't really want to go against Bobby who clearly knows way more than I do, but to say that they went to a +1 QB run game and that it was the difference in the 2nd half, to me, is just not true.

I don't know what to tell you about the 2 scrambles. 2nd and 6 from their 39, 3rd play of the 2nd half, he drops back to hit a quick RPO pass, gets pushed back by pressure, spins around looking for another receiver before running past the pass rushers and into the open field for 17 yards.

2nd and 10 from their 45 with 3:04 in the 3rd, he does play action boot looking for receivers who aren't open, slips a tackle, then some more, and gains 12 yards.

You're right about not running longer passing plays, except for the rollout scramble and a few others that didn't work, but going back, they actually only ran 2 QB power plays in the whole 2nd half, and both came on their final FG drive after they had already tied the game and only netted 8 yards, although 1 did result in a first down. Its true that if you want to count the dropped snap play in there, it was a pretty pivotal QB run, I will admit.

If Bobby or anyone else wants to say those 3 plays were the difference out of the 47 they ran in the 2nd half, I guess they can, but that just doesn't square with what I saw. I saw us get our asses kicked by the same RPO zone run they ran in the first half over and over. 13 RB carries out of 32 plays in the first half, 27 RB carries out of 47 plays in the 2nd. If you want to argue for any adjustments, there it is, right there.

 

[garizzalies]

Look, I really only got fired up about this because Soldier decided to be a giant dick for no reason, and I don't really want to go against Bobby who clearly knows way more than I do, but to say that they went to a +1 QB run game and that it was the difference in the 2nd half, to me, is just not true.

I don't know what to tell you about the 2 scrambles. 2nd and 6 from their 39, 3rd play of the 2nd half, he drops back to hit a quick RPO pass, gets pushed back by pressure, spins around looking for another receiver before running past the pass rushers and into the open field for 17 yards.

2nd and 10 from their 45 with 3:04 in the 3rd, he does play action boot looking for receivers who aren't open, slips a tackle, then some more, and gains 12 yards.

You're right about not running longer passing plays, except for the rollout scramble and a few others that didn't work, but going back, they actually only ran 2 QB power plays in the whole 2nd half, and both came on their final FG drive after they had already tied the game and only netted 8 yards, although 1 did result in a first down. Its true that if you want to count the dropped snap play in there, it was a pretty pivotal QB run, I will admit.

If Bobby or anyone else wants to say those 3 plays were the difference out of the 47 they ran in the 2nd half, I guess they can, but that just doesn't square with what I saw. I saw us get our asses kicked by the same RPO zone run they ran in the first half over and over. 13 RB carries out of 32 plays in the first half, 27 RB carries out of 47 plays in the 2nd. If you want to argue for any adjustments, there it is, right there.

I don’t think they suddenly turned to a “+1 QB run game”, certainly not as extreme like the bubz running qb power with Chambers or anything like that. Instead, they made a concerted effort to do less drop backs and more qb running. It’s their bread and butter, and if you saw the Romfo HS highlight reel they showcased, it was his too.

They may have even told Romfo at halftime, when in doubt keep it and run it.
I also believe BH is right, UND is “thin” at QB and UND’s original plan (which the Griz prepared for) was to not run him so much and try to pass, but when that didn’t work, they realized the only way they could win was to revert back to their roots.

At halftime they basically said what are we doing here? Fuck it—let’s do what we do best, it’s our only chance.

It’s just surprising to me the Griz did not respond, but the silver lining is I think the coaches learned from it.

 

[uofmman1122]

I don’t think they suddenly turned to a “+1 QB run game”, certainly not as extreme like the bubz running qb power with Chambers or anything like that. Instead, they made a concerted effort to do less drop backs and more qb running. It’s their bread and butter, and if you saw the Romfo HS highlight reel they showcased, it was his too.

They may have even told Romfo at halftime, when in doubt keep it and run it.
I also believe BH is right, UND is “thin” at QB and UND’s original plan (which the Griz prepared for) was to not run him so much and try to pass, but when that didn’t work, they realized the only way they could win was to revert back to their roots.

At halftime they basically said what are we doing here? Fuck it—let’s do what we do best, it’s our only chance.

It’s just surprising to me the Griz did not respond, but the silver lining is I think the coaches learned from it.

I guess it's just semantics at this point, and we'll have to agree to disagree about the QB run stuff. I think they definitely happened, but I don't think they went into the 2nd half like "we know the QB runs will work on these guys", it just ended up being successful on those particular plays (particularly the 2 scrambles and the fumbled snap plays), whereas similar situations weren't successful in the 1st half.

Our problem, IMO, on Saturday was the 42 other plays where they marched down the (sometimes short) field RPO-ing us to death on 4 possessions while drawing 3 dreadful personal fouls that twice gave them 15 easy yards, and once turned a FG into a TD, got 12 first downs and bled the clock out. It was also playing the worst offensive half of football I've seen in I don't even know how long.