UCLA B.B. and the NCAA situation

[UMcheer2000]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22614341/liangelo-lavar-ball-donald-trump-shoplifting-scandal-rocked-ucla-ncaa-basketball-season

What was interesting was the part where they bailed the players without committing NCAA violations (reimbursed)

“Among the new details that have emerged: what the players stole from the other two stores besides the sunglasses from Louis Vuitton; that the players were required to leave the police station multiple times to return the items they stole to all three stores; that one player hid a pair of stolen sunglasses in UCLA head coach Steve Alford's hotel room; how UCLA and Pac-12 officials bailed the players out of jail without committing an NCAA violation; how charges were dropped, the bail refunded and the players' passports returned two days before White House chief of staff John Kelly called the players to inform them that President Donald Trump was working on their release; how UCLA appeased Chinese authorities by keeping the players in China for 72 hours after the rest of the team had returned to Los Angeles; and why school officials thought it wise to thank Trump and Kelly while still unsure of the impact of their efforts.”


I was thinking how one of the reasons the Griz FB team had to vacate wins from the 2011 season due to a lawyer/client representation that the NCAA wasn’t cool with..

 

[MiningCityGrizFan]

This is because the NCAA is corrupt. They poured a massive amount of money into an investigation that was basically supposed to uncover a sex dungeon full of coeds being held against their will... rather than be satisfied with an investigation that found no wrong doing they used the bail to justify sanctions.

It wasn’t the bail per se, if I remember correctly it’s that on parent who was here bailed out another player along with his own kid. That was deemed to be an illegal loan per NCAA standards even though the “loan” was paid back immediately by Tru’s family. That’s at least what I remember.

From that point in every game Tru played in was vacated by the NCAA... not for rape. Not for fighting. For on parent posting bail for a kid and being reimbursed the next day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[michaelsol]

This is because the NCAA is corrupt. They poured a massive amount of money into an investigation that was basically supposed to uncover a sex dungeon full of coeds being held against their will... rather than be satisfied with an investigation that found no wrong doing they used the bail to justify sanctions.

It wasn’t the bail per se, if I remember correctly it’s that on parent who was here bailed out another player along with his own kid. That was deemed to be an illegal loan per NCAA standards even though the “loan” was paid back immediately by Tru’s family. That’s at least what I remember.

From that point in every game Tru played in was vacated by the NCAA... not for rape. Not for fighting. For on parent posting bail for a kid and being reimbursed the next day.

Recall, the NCAA didn't actually "come up with" the sanctions imposed. It's usual action is to ask the "offending party" to make suggestions, a "choose your own punishment" approach. If they think the proposals are insufficient, they can impose harsher sanctions, if not, they'll accept the recommendations.

So, UM, for reasons that remain, to me, unfathomable, first of all never put up a fight and second of all really went out of its way to impose harsh sanctions, sanctions that were, in the context of what was alleged to have happened, completely disproportionate to the "offenses." And that's a good example. A parent of an athlete extended a small loan at the request of another parent who lived out of town for a bail bond, which was promptly paid back. Even "if" an infraction was committed, and that's a big "if," it's the type that usual merits a "it's not a biggy, but don't do it again." And there was more to the overall picture, and I'm not downplaying those.

But UM vacated wins, took away the hard work of an entire team, humiliated the school, and started a downturn in enrollment that is yet to end. And did all of that not only "without a fight," UM proposed those penalties, NCAA did not; it simply went along, as it does, and said "well OK." I've never seen the NCAA say, 'hey, wait a minute, aren't you overdoing it?"

And that's the sad bottom line: UM did this to itself.

 

[argh!]

i thought it was a grandparent who paid the bail, and that he was not 'in town', either.

 

[PDXGrizzly]

This is because the NCAA is corrupt. They poured a massive amount of money into an investigation that was basically supposed to uncover a sex dungeon full of coeds being held against their will... rather than be satisfied with an investigation that found no wrong doing they used the bail to justify sanctions.

It wasn’t the bail per se, if I remember correctly it’s that on parent who was here bailed out another player along with his own kid. That was deemed to be an illegal loan per NCAA standards even though the “loan” was paid back immediately by Tru’s family. That’s at least what I remember.

From that point in every game Tru played in was vacated by the NCAA... not for rape. Not for fighting. For on parent posting bail for a kid and being reimbursed the next day.

Recall, the NCAA didn't actually "come up with" the sanctions imposed. It's usual action is to ask the "offending party" to make suggestions, a "choose your own punishment" approach. If they think the proposals are insufficient, they can impose harsher sanctions, if not, they'll accept the recommendations.

So, UM, for reasons that remain, to me, unfathomable, first of all never put up a fight and second of all really went out of its way to impose harsh sanctions, sanctions that were, in the context of what was alleged to have happened, completely disproportionate to the "offenses." And that's a good example. A parent of an athlete extended a small loan at the request of another parent who lived out of town for a bail bond, which was promptly paid back. Even "if" an infraction was committed, and that's a big "if," it's the type that usual merits a "it's not a biggy, but don't do it again." And there was more to the overall picture, and I'm not downplaying those.

But UM vacated wins, took away the hard work of an entire team, humiliated the school, and started a downturn in enrollment that is yet to end. And did all of that not only "without a fight," UM proposed those penalties, NCAA did not; it simply went along, as it does, and said "well OK." I've never seen the NCAA say, 'hey, wait a minute, aren't you overdoing it?"

And that's the sad bottom line: UM did this to itself.

A big thank you goes out to Rolls Royce for putting UM in this with completely inept and anti-athletic leadership. Seriously, screwing the athletic department (through the football team), hiring an investigator to find all the alleged abuses (newsflash! There were none except Donaldson) by football players that were so pervasive :roll:, then give a Saudi student a get out of jail free card after he DID rape someone. What a joke of a person. Definitely “not my President”

 

[michaelsol]

A big thank you goes out to Rolls Royce for putting UM in this with completely inept and anti-athletic leadership. Seriously, screwing the athletic department (through the football team), hiring an investigator to find all the alleged abuses (newsflash!

Hired the "investigator" at $160/hr, a retired MT Supreme Court Justice whose background was mainly family law and mediation. So she wandered around campus, and finally complained in her report that "no one would admit what she knew was true!" Royce had made a big deal about that appointment, to give himself as much publicity as a stalwart seeker of truth and justice. She didn't really find anything, so Royce fired Robin Pflugrad (UM Head Coach) and Jim O'Day (Athletic Director) probably two of the most proactive people ever to be in those positions, and did so while staring at his shoes.

You won't see that one in your next edition of "Profiles in Courage."

"Something had to be done!" in Engstrom's view, after his Saudi scandal at Montana Tech and the Saudi assault scandal at UM, two disasters he desperately wanted to "go away," and if the public firings of two good men was the solution, "Royce Engstrom was just the guy to do it!'

The "problem" is, this isn't "old news." There was some hope that the interim President might turn things around. She did a very creditable job, but it wasn't enough. The hemorrhage continues.

UM MSU
2009 11,360 10,509
2010 11,717 3.14% 10,876 3.49%
2011 11,540 -1.51% 12,136 11.59%
2012 11,874 2.89% 12,019 -0.96%
2013 11,055 -6.90% 12,577 4.64%
2014 10,543 -4.63% 12,971 3.13%
2015 10,342 -1.91% 13,108 1.06%
2016 9,903 -4.24% 13,488 2.90%
2017 9,309 -6.00% 14,320 6.17%
Change-2,051 -22.29% 3,811 28.52%

There are parts of this that are much worse, such as "instate" enrollment, which is down by nearly 33%. Welcome to UM! President Bodnar has his work cut out for him; since he knows how to fire a machine gun in combat, he may be the guy to do it.

 

[UMcheer2000]

Colter.

Please write an article addressing points like these made throughout this thread and the circumstances before/after Robin/O’Day were made scapegoats?

Twitter it even?

 

[fanofzoo]

This is because the NCAA is corrupt. They poured a massive amount of money into an investigation that was basically supposed to uncover a sex dungeon full of coeds being held against their will... rather than be satisfied with an investigation that found no wrong doing they used the bail to justify sanctions.

It wasn’t the bail per se, if I remember correctly it’s that on parent who was here bailed out another player along with his own kid. That was deemed to be an illegal loan per NCAA standards even though the “loan” was paid back immediately by Tru’s family. That’s at least what I remember.

From that point in every game Tru played in was vacated by the NCAA... not for rape. Not for fighting. For on parent posting bail for a kid and being reimbursed the next day.

Recall, the NCAA didn't actually "come up with" the sanctions imposed. It's usual action is to ask the "offending party" to make suggestions, a "choose your own punishment" approach. If they think the proposals are insufficient, they can impose harsher sanctions, if not, they'll accept the recommendations.

So, UM, for reasons that remain, to me, unfathomable, first of all never put up a fight and second of all really went out of its way to impose harsh sanctions, sanctions that were, in the context of what was alleged to have happened, completely disproportionate to the "offenses." And that's a good example. A parent of an athlete extended a small loan at the request of another parent who lived out of town for a bail bond, which was promptly paid back. Even "if" an infraction was committed, and that's a big "if," it's the type that usual merits a "it's not a biggy, but don't do it again." And there was more to the overall picture, and I'm not downplaying those.

But UM vacated wins, took away the hard work of an entire team, humiliated the school, and started a downturn in enrollment that is yet to end. And did all of that not only "without a fight," UM proposed those penalties, NCAA did not; it simply went along, as it does, and said "well OK." I've never seen the NCAA say, 'hey, wait a minute, aren't you overdoing it?"

And that's the sad bottom line: UM did this to itself.

Thanks royce (little r)

 

[argh!]

does anyone else find it ironic that some of the same people who were saying they were pleased with how proactive um and 'bodnar' are about the sexual harassment etc issue in the next breath castigate the guy who implemented the procedures(bqm) anything to take a swipe at somebody who hasn't been president a long time, i guess.

and no, i didn't like engstrom and have said so many times. not that saying so will stop anyone from saying that i was (cue kemwipes)

 

[SaskGriz]

The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky they're going to give Cleveland State another year of probation. Tark the Shark on the NC2A. Hard to believe there is a system created by rich guys that doesn't punish rich guys.

 

[michaelsol]

does anyone else find it ironic that some of the same people who were saying they were pleased with how proactive um and 'bodnar' are about the sexual harassment etc issue in the next breath castigate the guy who implemented the procedures(bqm)

Under President Dennison, UM was quite proactive on these issues, not in the "Look at Me" approach used by Engstrom, but the more practical approach of "actually doing something about it," instituting the Women's Self Defense Classes (for credit), encouraging women to participate in the combat sports with natural self-defense applications, and providing seminar opportunities for student groups as well as providing general seminars open the public which were not only well-attended, but attracted participants outside the UM community, giving UM itself a higher public visibility.

Varsity athletes were a big help. We asked for volunteers so that students could "beat them up." For many students, actual physical interaction with an ostensibly threatening male was an important part of the classroom experiences. So, when I'd ask for athlete volunteers that wanted to be attacked and beaten up by women, we always had a good turnout.

There really weren't any particularly good texts available -- there were a surprising number of older, out-of-print texts, but nothing current. So, we developed a "workbook" that combined scholarly studies, practical self-defense, and specifically identified study areas that students could pursue for continuing development. These included dating strategies, daily living tips (don't walk down the sidewalk talking on the d--- cell phone at night because you "feel safer," don't set your drink down at parties, etc).

The students themselves were good sources of personal experiences and personal strategies. Some good personal experience stories came out of those classes.

UM "sports" -- varsity and non-varsity -- were very much in the forefront of bringing awareness and practical skills to the UM campus. In 2010, for instance, a national survey of 480 public universities in the nation showed an interresting observation. MSU at Bozeman ranked in the bottom 60 of US colleges and universities for assault and sexual crimes. The University of Montana was ranked about 462 -- one of the safest campuses in the country.

 

[zengriz]

Hard to believe there is a system created by rich guys that doesn't punish rich guys.

...the boys on the big stage...
...nobody does it better...
...the u.s. congress...

... :yikes: ...

 

[717s7e]

Whenever I see a particularly well-written and thoughtful post, only then do I check to see who wrote it. Usually it is Michaelsol. Thank you for your insight, Michael.

 

[Ursa Major]

does anyone else find it ironic that some of the same people who were saying they were pleased with how proactive um and 'bodnar' are about the sexual harassment etc issue in the next breath castigate the guy who implemented the procedures(bqm)

Under President Dennison, UM was quite proactive on these issues, not in the "Look at Me" approach used by Engstrom, but the more practical approach of "actually doing something about it," instituting the Women's Self Defense Classes (for credit), encouraging women to participate in the combat sports with natural self-defense applications, and providing seminar opportunities for student groups as well as providing general seminars open the public which were not only well-attended, but attracted participants outside the UM community, giving UM itself a higher public visibility.

Varsity athletes were a big help. We asked for volunteers so that students could "beat them up." For many students, actual physical interaction with an ostensibly threatening male was an important part of the classroom experiences. So, when I'd ask for athlete volunteers that wanted to be attacked and beaten up by women, we always had a good turnout.

There really weren't any particularly good texts available -- there were a surprising number of older, out-of-print texts, but nothing current. So, we developed a "workbook" that combined scholarly studies, practical self-defense, and specifically identified study areas that students could pursue for continuing development. These included dating strategies, daily living tips (don't walk down the sidewalk talking on the d--- cell phone at night because you "feel safer," don't set your drink down at parties, etc).

The students themselves were good sources of personal experiences and personal strategies. Some good personal experience stories came out of those classes.

UM "sports" -- varsity and non-varsity -- were very much in the forefront of bringing awareness and practical skills to the UM campus. In 2010, for instance, a national survey of 480 public universities in the nation showed an interresting observation. MSU at Bozeman ranked in the bottom 60 of US colleges and universities for assault and sexual crimes. The University of Montana was ranked about 462 -- one of the safest campuses in the country.

So, in a few words, everybody was kung fu fighting.

 

[michaelsol]

i thought it was a grandparent who paid the bail, and that he was not 'in town', either.

I think you are right.