Tell me if I'm out of line - I can take it.

[GGNez]

If you want to know how I feel about Grizzly football, see my post from yesterday afternoon entitled, "Look a little deeper, guys." I'm a true fan. I am also working hard to fight for victims of sexual assault and to raise awareness and open communication on this issue. I'M FRUSTRATED WITH BOTH SIDES. On one extreme end, some claim that rape does not exist and a lot of victim-blaming goes along with reporting these crimes. On the other side, are advocates who feel that Griz Nation is "Rape Nation" - that football fans tolerate rape and cover-up, that athletes can do whatever they want as long as they score on the field. I know that most Griz players, coaches and fans are people with integrity. I know that crime victim advocates have the best of intentions. I want to tear down the walls of communication and give a voice to the "silent majority" that is MOST OF US. eGriz in particular, has a terrible image. I know better. Anybody on here want to talk about this? I have ideas. I've been on the receiving end of victim-blaming. Is this too serious a topic for this forum?

 

[stubbins]

If you want to know how I feel about Grizzly football, see my post from yesterday afternoon entitled, "Look a little deeper, guys." I'm a true fan. I am also working hard to fight for victims of sexual assault and to raise awareness and open communication on this issue. I'M FRUSTRATED WITH BOTH SIDES. On one extreme end, some claim that rape does not exist and a lot of victim-blaming goes along with reporting these crimes. On the other side, are advocates who feel that Griz Nation is "Rape Nation" - that football fans tolerate rape and cover-up, that athletes can do whatever they want as long as they score on the field. I know that most Griz players, coaches and fans are people with integrity. I know that crime victim advocates have the best of intentions. I want to tear down the walls of communication and give a voice to the "silent majority" that is MOST OF US. eGriz in particular, has a terrible image. I know better. Anybody on here want to talk about this? I have ideas. I've been on the receiving end of victim-blaming. Is this too serious a topic for this forum?

I don't think it's too serious a topic for here, but you better be ready for some wanky comments.

IMO, there has not been one person on here that has defended rape, in any circumstance. I think the frustration comes from (at least in my case), that a victim has complete anonymity(rightfully so), while the accused is run through the mud before facts can be known.

Also, the anger at the over reaction of Royce Engstrom, has been taken as condoning rape. Not so...jsut frustration at a horrible decision and this is as good as place as any to call him out for the horrible leader that he is.
new conduct codes were being put into place to take all decisions out of coaches hands, which I see as a good thing for major infractions. It takes any perceived cover up out of the equation. IMO opinion, Pflugrad and O'Day should've been allowed to be part of the solution, that everybody had to get on board with, because it was a new policy. I will never, with the facts we have now, believe that it was right to fire Pflugrad or O'Day, without setting the new policies and allowing the whole University faculty the ability to abide by these rules.

 

[WyomingGrizFan]

I think a decent awareness program would be in order. Such as recognition, let's say, of the historical context of the US of America. This at least going back at least a hundred years and it's attendant overlay since then. a good site, for instance, would be http://www.sininthesecondcity.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for some source material. Considering the "attitudinal" and/or "State of Mind" of what's being dealt with one can easily cite the Federal Immigration Laws of 1907. An immigrant gets off the ship at Ellis Island, gets raped into a brothel, if found by Federal Agents in being in the country less than three years they get deported. Scenerio: 'the victim has no rights.' and that's what you're up against when dealing with the typical Indo-European male vendetta of ever being born connival birth to begin with and their "policy-making" taking it out on everyone else ever since routine.



With 160 Law Schools and over 1,600 so-called accredited Institutions in the North American Continent you'd think they'd have the wherewithal to avoid the "Bed Bug Alley" propaganda through the Media of "Role-Model" and cite that 'Moral quality of the Will is self-acquired' sort of deal, but when has that ever been noticed? I mean it's only been a notion that's been around for at least a couple thousand years since the days of the Academy. What?..you all got a place to hide?

 

[spsyk]

There are many forums on eGriz, the football forum might not be the right spot for this discussion.

As far as you being a "true fan", well, that is all fine and good, however I believe that everyone that visits the football forum is a "true fan" even those that stray from BobCat Nation are subliminal Griz "true fans", they are just misguided.

And your fight for sexual assault IMHO has no place in a football forum loaded with testosterone and not so much in estrogen.

I could assure you that nobody who visits this forum would ever condone rape, and would want the guilty, not the accused until proved guilty, to receive the harshest punishment allowed for the crime.

I'm bewildered, by the comment "advocates for Rape Nation, where is that coming from.

I certain that you are mistaken that fans of the Griz tolerate rape and cover it up, not going to happen, period.

If you mean standing by an athlete accuse of a crime until the judicatory system decides guilt or not, and that is your definition of Rape Nation.

You definition of Rape Nation, while Jordy Johnson is waiting for his day in court, and if you knew the whole story of Donaldson, that had a high probability of occurring, even if he didn't play football for the Griz.

If there is a terrible image of Griz football the reason just might be the exploitation of fantasy facts from individuals as yourself and newspaper such as the Missoulian

I'm not sure that you know what you are talking about claiming that eGriz has a bad image, if so what in the hell attract you to the site.

So, with that said, and this is just my opinion and absolutely, not speaking for anybody else on eGriz, I'm telling you that you are out of line, and not in the least interested in your ideas of sexual assault.

However, if you want to talk about football, and critique of players and coaches, well jump in, that is what eGriz is all about.

 

[GGNez]

There are many forums on eGriz, the football forum might not be the right spot for this discussion.

As far as you being a "true fan", well, that is all fine and good, however I believe that everyone that visits the football forum is a "true fan" even those that stray from BobCat Nation are subliminal Griz "true fans", they are just misguided.

And your fight for sexual assault IMHO has no place in a football forum loaded with testosterone and not so much in estrogen.

I could assure you that nobody who visits this forum would ever condone rape, and would want the guilty, not the accused until proved guilty, to receive the harshest punishment allowed for the crime.

I'm bewildered, by the comment "advocates for Rape Nation, where is that coming from.

I certain that you are mistaken that fans of the Griz tolerate rape and cover it up, not going to happen, period.

If you mean standing by an athlete accuse of a crime until the judicatory system decides guilt or not, and that is your definition of Rape Nation.

You definition of Rape Nation, while Jordy Johnson is waiting for his day in court, and if you knew the whole story of Donaldson, that had a high probability of occurring, even if he didn't play football for the Griz.

If there is a terrible image of Griz football the reason just might be the exploitation of fantasy facts from individuals as yourself and newspaper such as the Missoulian

I'm not sure that you know what you are talking about claiming that eGriz has a bad image, if so what in the hell attract you to the site.

So, with that said, and this is just my opinion and absolutely, not speaking for anybody else on eGriz, I'm telling you that you are out of line, and not in the least interested in your ideas of sexual assault.

However, if you want to talk about football, and critique of players and coaches, well jump in, that is what eGriz is all about.

I appreciate your honesty, but not so much your defensiveness. I did not create the label "Rape Nation" and am completely offended by it. I have been reading this site since 2006 or so because I am very interested in football and have few friends who know anything about it.
I brought this up because I was recently very offended by someone who suggested that we leave "eGrizzers" out of our efforts to raise awareness because of the perception that this site is filled with misogynistic men. I don't agree and found her remarks prejudicial and offensive.
Not only do I wish to raise awareness and help victims, but I want to defend YOU and others on this site from such closed-minded opinions...that's why I asked.
These crimes are FAR from black and white and my thoughts are fueled by information and experience, not estrogen.
A former full-time eGrizzer is now in prison for molesting my daughter and collecting child pornography. His families attacked me and my daughter for revealing the truth about him. THAT is why I stand up for victims and want to educate people. I happen to love the Griz and this game...THAT is why I stand up for their image. Feedback helps...no need to be defensive.

 

[kurtismichael]

Not out of line. The Locker Room Forum is where the discussion should probably take place though. However, it will get a lot more participation in the Football Forum. Sorry about your daughter that is a horrible thing to have to endure. Like what was stated above two of the main issues Egrizzers have with this whole thing is:

1. the local paper and others labeling guilt on Jordan Johnson before he has had his day in court and painting all football players as people who are just waiting to sexually assualt someome.

2. President Engstrom knee jerking and firing O'Day and Pflugrad without an explanation or a chance for them to be part of the solution.

Anyway, good luck on your discussion, it is important. I have 3 young boys all under 5 and I hope they grow up with a healthy interest and involvment in sports but also the morals and knowledge to recognize right from wrong.

 

[GGNez]

Not out of line. The Locker Room Forum is where the discussion should probably take place though. However, it will get a lot more participation in the Football Forum. Sorry about your daughter that is a horrible thing to have to endure. Like what was stated above two of the main issues Egrizzers have with this whole thing is:

1. the local paper and others labeling guilt on Jordan Johnson before he has had his day in court and painting all football players as people who are just waiting to sexually assualt someome.

2. President Engstrom knee jerking and firing O'Day and Pflugrad without an explanation or a chance for them to be part of the solution.

Anyway, good luck on your discussion, it is important. I have 3 young boys all under 5 and I hope they grow up with a healthy interest and involvment in sports but also the morals and knowledge to recognize right from wrong.

Thank you - nice work raising boys with integrity. I believe that most people do. I recently called out people who label athletes and fans as criminals or of being tolerant of certain crimes in a Missoulian column. There is a silent majority of people with good intentions and 2 extremes on either end of the spectrum that ensures division and prevents communication. I opened up this discussion, because I have gotten involved in the advocate community to help victims, but my heart is also here - in Griz Nation - and I want the 95% in the middle to work together. As much as I hate hearing men say something like, "she was asking for it," I also hate man-bashing, overly sensitive remarks from women who think that all drunk sex is bad. Isn't that what we all did in our 20's? Education is key and for that, we need discussion. For that, we need open minds and ears.

 

[kurtismichael]

Not out of line. The Locker Room Forum is where the discussion should probably take place though. However, it will get a lot more participation in the Football Forum. Sorry about your daughter that is a horrible thing to have to endure. Like what was stated above two of the main issues Egrizzers have with this whole thing is:

1. the local paper and others labeling guilt on Jordan Johnson before he has had his day in court and painting all football players as people who are just waiting to sexually assualt someome.

2. President Engstrom knee jerking and firing O'Day and Pflugrad without an explanation or a chance for them to be part of the solution.

Anyway, good luck on your discussion, it is important. I have 3 young boys all under 5 and I hope they grow up with a healthy interest and involvment in sports but also the morals and knowledge to recognize right from wrong.

Thank you - nice work raising boys with integrity. I believe that most people do. I recently called out people who label athletes and fans as criminals or of being tolerant of certain crimes in a Missoulian column. There is a silent majority of people with good intentions and 2 extremes on either end of the spectrum that ensures division and prevents communication. I opened up this discussion, because I have gotten involved in the advocate community to help victims, but my heart is also here - in Griz Nation - and I want the 95% in the middle to work together. As much as I hate hearing men say something like, "she was asking for it," I also hate man-bashing, overly sensitive remarks from women who think that all drunk sex is bad. Isn't that what we all did in our 20's? Education is key and for that, we need discussion. For that, we need open minds and ears.

I have nothing to base it on other than a brief introduction to Jordan Johnson last season after a game, but I do not believe it is in him to pre meditate something like this, not to say it did not happen as an isolated incident. Only him and the girl truly know what happened. It is too bad he put himself in the position to have something like this occur. I am withholding judgement on him until after he faces trial. You are correct in the two extremes though.

 

[grizfan47]

Not out of line. The Locker Room Forum is where the discussion should probably take place though. However, it will get a lot more participation in the Football Forum. Sorry about your daughter that is a horrible thing to have to endure. Like what was stated above two of the main issues Egrizzers have with this whole thing is:

1. the local paper and others labeling guilt on Jordan Johnson before he has had his day in court and painting all football players as people who are just waiting to sexually assualt someome.

2. President Engstrom knee jerking and firing O'Day and Pflugrad without an explanation or a chance for them to be part of the solution.

Anyway, good luck on your discussion, it is important. I have 3 young boys all under 5 and I hope they grow up with a healthy interest and involvment in sports but also the morals and knowledge to recognize right from wrong.

Thank you - nice work raising boys with integrity. I believe that most people do. I recently called out people who label athletes and fans as criminals or of being tolerant of certain crimes in a Missoulian column. There is a silent majority of people with good intentions and 2 extremes on either end of the spectrum that ensures division and prevents communication. I opened up this discussion, because I have gotten involved in the advocate community to help victims, but my heart is also here - in Griz Nation - and I want the 95% in the middle to work together. As much as I hate hearing men say something like, "she was asking for it," I also hate man-bashing, overly sensitive remarks from women who think that all drunk sex is bad. Isn't that what we all did in our 20's? Education is key and for that, we need discussion. For that, we need open minds and ears.

GGNez, Your efforts are appreciated and your comments are well thought out and expressed. I think a large majority of egriz readers would agree with you, I certainly do. The number of egriz members that actually post on the forum is small. kurtismichaels reasons for the angst is also spot on. I have three daughters and a stepdaughter. I also have a son and stepson. Boys should be taught to respect girls and girls should be taught to respect themselves. Both should be taught to accept responsibility for their choices and actions.

I have hesitated to say much about this particular subject due to my occupation. I will retire in about 14 months and would have more to say at that time. But over all, let the system handle it and hopefully justice will be served regarless the outcome.

 

[mtgrizrule]

After seeing Jordan Johnson dragged through the mud, I would love to see a few things.

(1) Both accuser, and accused be kept anonymous. or both be revealed. Of course anonymous makes sense.

(2) The court documents be kept more private, until after the outcome. It really pissed me off reading what we had access to, most anyone knowing college students at the U of M could have, and did find out the accusers identity. A few too many people know her identity.

(3) More counsel to the accuser with more consequences if determined the charges are unfounded. I am not sure how to word this, but I have known of women who use this charge as a trump card to get even with a guy who broke up with them, or did not want to be with them. Please, realize I am not implying that is the case here with this case. I do believe there needs to be more defined guidelines on each side of rape cases. Confidentiality of both sides would be a great start, and one that makes sense.

(4) I doubt you can help this, but if JJ and the football program are found relatively clean, some sort of repercussions on Gwen Florio and the Missoulian. The way the Missoulian has portrayed JJ and the football program is pathetic and unprofessional.

I also have met JJ. I too would be shocked if he would do anything close to what he is accused of.

 

[GGNez]

Agreed....and that is what my efforts are based on....not simply protecting women from being raped by men. It is a complex problem and issue that involves everyone. I have been far too drunk to make good decisions in my past...so has almost everyone I know. Kind of like taking the keys from someone who shouldn't be driving, my effort is focused on dragging your friend home and putting him or her to bed before they make a stupid choice that could affect their life and family. Not easy - I was once a pretty stubborn drunk, as most people are. But opening the discussion and talking honestly and openly before these things happen might help. People will always drink and drive - but fewer do now and more people feel ok taking someone's keys or calling a cab because of an awareness campaign. We need to talk and raise awareness without defensiveness and blame. Men shouldn't have to fear rape charges over drunk sex and women should be able to report a rape without fear of being re-victimized. The rest of us should be able to talk about it without slinging $*#t.

 

[grizfan47]

Agreed....and that is what my efforts are based on....not simply protecting women from being raped by men. It is a complex problem and issue that involves everyone. I have been far too drunk to make good decisions in my past...so has almost everyone I know. Kind of like taking the keys from someone who shouldn't be driving, my effort is focused on dragging your friend home and putting him or her to bed before they make a stupid choice that could affect their life and family. Not easy - I was once a pretty stubborn drunk, as most people are. But opening the discussion and talking honestly and openly before these things happen might help. People will always drink and drive - but fewer do now and more people feel ok taking someone's keys or calling a cab because of an awareness campaign. We need to talk and raise awareness without defensiveness and blame. Men shouldn't have to fear rape charges over drunk sex and women should be able to report a rape without fear of being re-victimized. The rest of us should be able to talk about it without slinging $*#t.

I totally agree with you. Good post.

 

[kurtismichael]

After seeing Jordan Johnson dragged through the mud, I would love to see a few things.

(1) Both accuser, and accused be kept anonymous. or both be revealed. Of course anonymous makes sense.

(2) The court documents be kept more private, until after the outcome. It really pissed me off reading what we had access to, most anyone knowing college students at the U of M could have, and did find out the accusers identity. A few too many people know her identity.

(3) More counsel to the accuser with more consequences if determined the charges are unfounded. I am not sure how to word this, but I have known of women who use this charge as a trump card to get even with a guy who broke up with them, or did not want to be with them. Please, realize I am not implying that is the case here with this case. I do believe there needs to be more defined guidelines on each side of rape cases. Confidentiality of both sides would be a great start, and one that makes sense.

(4) I doubt you can help this, but if JJ and the football program are found relatively clean, some sort of repercussions on Gwen Florio and the Missoulian. The way the Missoulian has portrayed JJ and the football program is pathetic and unprofessional.

I also have met JJ. I too would be shocked if he would do anything close to what he is accused of.

I recall an article on the Missoulian.com maybe a month or so ago that had the headline something to the effect of "Former UM student charged with Sexual Assualt". Some readers commented under the article about why the headline had to say "Former UM Student" instead of maybe just "Missoula Man" of "Man". Seems like some reporters (Gwen) love an oppurtunity to drag the University of MT's name through the mud and others (Bill Speltz) write articles that are really sugar coated.

 

[mtgrizrule]

Considering the number of cases reported on campus or by students, and which one was it that made the headlines? If you print an article like that, leave everyone out, or mention all the accused. What the Missoulian and Florio have done to JJ and the program is Bullshit!!! Feel free to pass that onto the loser Missoulian decision makers.

 

[GGNez]

Considering the number of cases reported on campus or by students, and which one was it that made the headlines? If you print an article like that, leave everyone out, or mention all the accused. What the Missoulian and Florio have done to JJ and the program is Bullshit!!! Feel free to pass that onto the loser Missoulian decision makers.

Believe me, I have had a lot of discussion lately about prejudice and discrimination in these matters. It's a strange thing...I have always considered myself a liberal and...sure, I'm a feminist...I want women to succeed and have rights, etc. I also want men to succeed and have rights. Equality is my goal. However, I find a great hypocrisy in some of the remarks made about football players, AD staff and athletes in general by people who claim to fight for diversity and "equality". Replace the word "Griz player" with "black person" or "woman" or "gay person" in some of the statements I have heard and these same people would be enraged. If someone were spray-painting the words "Drunk Nation" with a native American tribe logo around town, it would be a hate crime, not a "political statement" and simple vandalism. Double standard, for sure.