• Hi Guest, want to participate in the discussions, keep track of read/unread posts and more? Create your free account and increase the benefits of your eGriz.com experience today!

Phenicie, Ochs and the Deep Ball...


Well-known member
Staff member
Too many of you expect the Griz to throw the ball deep when the opposing team really won't allow us to do that. I mentioned this in another string, but I think it bears to be mentioned again...much of this will be repeat from my other post...

I wish I could show this, but since I can't...I will try to explain this...

1. They were playing a two deep format. Two Safties Roaming the deep half of the field. The objective of this is not to allow anything over their heads.

2. Four Under: They were dropping all four of their Linebackers back in to coverage for most of the day. So they have anything from the LOS to about 10 yards deep divided into 1/4's.

3. 2 cb's: That were either man on man with their guy or they too dropped back into deep coverage.

4. 3 or 4 defensive linemen and no blitzing...
Thus this is what you get.... 4 or 5 recievers being covered by 7 football players. You do the math....

1. Any deep ball will get double coverage. THus the ball that Ochs threw the interception on was picked off not by the cornerback but by the Safety roaming hte middle of the field.

2. The other two deep balls also garned double if not triple coverage. Ochs took what he had avialable to him.

3. Running the football was where it was at today. We had some great success with it because we had the numbers game up front. Our offensive guru saw that we had an advantage and we went with it.

4. Just because we don't run up 500 yards of offense, doesn't mean that our OC should be canned. Just because you want to throw the ball deep, doesn't mean you can. We had completions to 7 different recievers, and had 150 yards rushing.

5. We had 4 turnovers today and ALL 4 of them occured inside the 50 and threeof them inside the 30 yard line. That has nothing to do with Phenicie folks. Kids fumble the football and throw interceptions, not offensive coordinators.

Again, just my two cents, but I saw good offensive plan that was executed well up until we got inside the 20.
Talmage had his CHANCE and he didn't catch it. The ball was right on target too. And it was perfectly thrown.

The defender was right there and Talmage lost the battle.

Talmage might not be the savior that some of you think. One catch today. He isn't getting open. If he was Ochs would find him more. If he's only getting 1 catch and five others are getting 3 and 4 catches then he isn't getting open. He's being doubled and it's opening up other guys. We might see this the rest of the year, Talmage being doubled.
I think that is part the reason that they had the coverage they did. It doesn't allow for jump balls...

As for inside the 20, I don't know...Anything to the outside would have been great. They made one attempt on a ball to talmadge in the corner, but the ball wasn't thrown well...i think the problem sometimes that Phenecie wants to attack the middle of the football field...

I have just noticed that many teams haven't come at us with man coverage a lot...that is where Jon Talmadge shines...

I guess I see teams trying to make us beat them with the run. They know what we want to do with the football...We are now starting to prove that we can run the ball effectively. Because Green's holes are getting bigger week after week. Because initially our strength was with the recieving corps, and still is. Teams weren't going to be very afraid of an anemic running attack. There is a part of every offensive coordinator that has to prove to themselves that they can do it when no oneelse says they could. Admitedly, some of the calls have been suspect...but this weeks wasn't as bad as everyone seems to think it was.
All right. Here goes.

1. When a team is running a 2 deep format you need to get your speed guys (Heidelburger and Segars) on the outside to separate from the CB's so that the safeties have to help with coverage. This keeps them busy downfield, for fear of one going over their heads.

2A. Zone coverage underneath is nothing unusual. Usual drop for linebackers in pass coverage is about 10 or 12 yards. Now if your two speedy guys have done their jobs they should be 30 yds downfield with 2 cb's and 2 safeties this leaves about a twenty yard gap between coverages. Hit that enough and they will have to bring one of the safeties up to play center field. That now leaves your 2 fast guys covered by 2 cb's and 1 safety. Now your two fast guys need to really poor it on the cb's covering them to get separation causing the free safety to have to cover someone and not just wait around for the ball to be thrown.

2B. If you are having trouble with the linebackers in zone coverage and you are running the ball well (like the Griz were today) Play action or roll out (probably not a good choice with Disneys ankle but do able).

3. From what I could tell watching the game over the internet Webers corners weren't anything special. I imagine alot of the reason that they run the 2 deep safeties is because there cb's are suspect and given what NAU did to them last week I'm sure that is a lot of the reason.

4. 3 or 4 defensive linemen and no blitzing means Ochs should have some time, especially with our offensive line.

I'm not going to answer all of the second part just #3, #4, and #5.

3. Running the football did well for us today true. But I still think a couple of well placed passes is a good idea. A good expample is when you get the ball on the opponents 19 yd line. Talmage on a fade into the corner for a jump ball, might be worth a try, If he don't catch it then it goes out of bounds. Low risk, worth a shot.

4. I don't expect 500 yds of offense, I do expect a touchdown. I don't want him to throw the deep ball, I want him to split the coverages.

5. I agree the turnovers were a killer, but we had our shots and safetied up.

I agree the game plan was executed well for the most part until we got in the red zone. But, let's look at what happens when you get in the red zone. Playing field shortens up so the safeties can cheat the run a little bit. Which is why a guy gettin 5-6 yds a carry outside of the red zone might only get 2-3 yds in the red zone. Hard to run the ball with 8 or 9 guys in the box. But hey, the passing lanes might open a little.

That's just the way I see things.
What Rob said. :wink:

Plus if there is that much time to throw the ball, and you have a good throwing QB........it's like shooting fish in a bucket....

ANd I am not calling for the huge pass everytime......If the X runs a sprint and the Y runs a 10-15 yard slant and the QB has time and an accurate throwing arm.....one of them is open against the afore mentioned D. And that is just one play on one side of the field.

I am a big fan of screen plays against that D too. You may say...screen?????? I say yes screen! The LBs read pass and drop...The o-line shed the d-line and goes hunting for LB ass.....LBs give up five yards dropping into pass coverage and the o-line gets a running start at them.......PLUS if you get the freakin ball in Segears or JH hands with some O-line in front of them........it is just like a kick return minus three or four players. :wink:

At any rate......we are still candy coating it.....Do you think that WSU ran a different D against a pass happy NAU team? Yet they passed the freakin ball for 340 yards against this same team AT WSU! :eek:

Or maybe they have better dbs this week? Well, the answer to that is no....the answer is that WE DID NOT THROW THE BALL ENOUGH! Which is back up by the numbers. We averaged 7.5 yards per attempt passing(including sacks and incompletion), and only 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. How do you explain that? I say Pass the frickin rock man...it works!!! If I had a QB as good as Ochs......I would want to throw the ball a lot more, especially against the webes! Just my opinion.

Next week we will see the most talented CBs we will see all year. Maybe we will pass every down. :lol:
One stat tells me the offense was getting the job done, except for the turnovers: 0 punts. We didn't have one punt all day long, so the offense must have been doing something right.
Grizfan-24 i agree, the passing game did well. throwing deep isn't always necessary and short and medium passes are safer and can lead to big yards sometimes. I like them. and if they keep working the D will have to adjust.

The ball to talmage was too high, btw, ronbo. check out the video.

Grizrick is happy with no punts. so am i, but i'm not happy about no tds.
the 51 yard FG is essentially like punting IMHO.
Look, for all of you football experts who are telling us how to attack the 2-deep, and every other thing said on this post, I must remind you that Weber's weakness is their pass defense. True frosh QB Murietta of NAU torched Weber last week. So, what do our brilliant coaches do? We run the frickin ball!

Here is the problem, and it ain't gonna go away. The offense that Phenicie is running is a PASSING OFFENSE! It utilizes 4-5 receivers, a deep direct snap to the QB, a naked deep running back. It is designed to pass-first, then use the deep hand-off OCCASIONALLY to keep the LBs and DBs honest, which will allow the passing game to flourish.

So, what do our brilliant coaches do with this PASSING OFFENSE??? They RUN the ball 75% of the time. Not too smart, even for a Little Grizzly coach!

My friends, you can continue to tell us about how wonderful the game plan was, about how innovative this coaching staff is, and blah, blah, blah! However, to anyone watching this debaucle who knows anything about football, these coaches couldn't excel at the high school level.

Wayne, you made a mistake. You see, it DOES actually matter that a head coach played college football! It DOES actually matter that a level of maturity be achieved prior to taking over the reigns of the most prestigious IAA job in America. We ain't got time for him to figure it out on the job! As Joe Glenn so eloquently stated, "I was given the keys to a Cadillac, I just didn't wreck it". Methinks that Cadillac is careening out of control, and will hit the wall about next week in Pocatello!
Some food for thought....

I notices that Ochs made quite a few audibles at the LOS and the resulting play was a run. I don't think the OC is the only one that is making the run calls.

or.. may be in changing a run to a different run?

What does everyone else think?
If Oachs checked to a run play it was only because he was doing exatly what he was told to do while prepping for Weber, according to Hauck. He was "given a talking to" for checking into pass plays last game i was told.
Tailbone said:
You see, it DOES actually matter that a head coach played college football!

Tell that to John Gruden.

or you could go to NFL.com to find that...

Gruden was a three-year letterman at quarterback at the University of Dayton, graduating in 1985 with a degree in communications. The Flyers had a 24-7 record in Gruden's three varsity seasons there. Attended South Bend Clay High School in Indiana. Was wide receivers coach for University of Pittsburgh in 1991, wide receivers coach at University of Pacific in 1989, and passing game coordinator at Southeast Missouri State in 1988. Began coaching career as a graduate assistant at the University of Tennessee (1986-8)
Gruden was a three-year letterman at quarterback at the University of Dayton, graduating in 1985 with a degree in communications.

I didn't say he didn't play.....I just said to tell him.


Sorry, I thought I remembered reading that he didn't play.
Guess I should verify before I speak (figuratively).
Thanks for the lesson. :oops:
actually, i'm betting there are sucessfull coaches that didn't play, but i don't knw one way or the other.

It would be funny to tell Gruden something like that if in fact he didn't play. He'd give you his "chuckie face". somthing like :bad-words:
Yeah, Marv Levy never played. O.K., so we find one coach in the nation who never played and was successful. That means we should go out and hire another one to see if we can prove to the world that it can be done again? Give me a break!
Another factor that's being overlooked (if someone's made this point already then forgive me) is that our QB is, from the looks of things, still nowhere near 100 percent on that ankle. Our playbook must be cut in half because he's unable to get around effectively back there. Just how many running plays can you run from the shotgun? And yet we had to run those plays repeatyedly, because he was in the gun all day to protect that ankle, and didn't want to get him killed back there passing on every down. As he heals, they can open up the offense a little more. I agree that was a fairly lethargic win, but at the same time I never doubted the outcome. I'm sure Hauck would like to score 45 a game, but a win is a win.