JJ Trial

[spokaneman]

You guys do know that Spokaneman and tnt are buddies, right?

Both graduated from Great Falls High in 1970. :shock:

OK... help me out here... your witty banter did not register.....

 

[OldtiredGRiz]

Washington Post:

:shock:

EDIT: Colin O'Keefe ‏@colinokeefe
The #JohnsonTrial has come to a close. Though most I see think he will, can Jordan Johnson overcome stats like this? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/rape_infographic.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

That is so much BS about only 2% falsely accused. One study that was published in a professional journal showed at least 41% were false accusations. So, who you gonna believe? Science or anti male activists?

I am no statistician, but I firmly believe that statistics can be bent or shaded in any number of directions to make them support or refute an argument. When it comes to false rape reporting, I do have significant firsthand experience. As a public defender and later in private practice, I represented something in the neighborhood of 325 persons charged with sexual assault of one degree or another. In 17 of those cases, it was proven conclusively that the charges were false or drummed up for any number of personal reasons. And I was involved in 4 other cases in which the reporting person recanted earlier testimony and stated that it didn't happen. That's 21 times out of 325, something close to 7%. So yes, it does happen. I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself.

 

[tnt]

As opposed to knowing who she was from the days after and watching and interacting with that in mind as opposed to reconstructing her memories after the fact.

So by knowing she would have to testify at some later date, observing, and taking notes or something? Stupider and stupider.

As opposed to say JJ's roomates who knew from the begining or the girls friends teaches etc who also knew from the begining or JJ 's roomates girlfriend or his Dad. All of whom gave informed testimony. The pharmacy student basically saying Well now looking back I don't recal her having problems There was no reason to think she should know anything.. Almost as stupid as Bell saying well looking back she had PTSD

How is any of the testimony you've described NOT from memory? Was there a flux capacitor involved? I am very confused by your posts. Please discuss.

The other witnesses (on both sides) knew from the very begining, or very close to it what happened (or at least what they were told) They also were friend and pretty close to whomever they were testifying for. Up pops this girl. She knew who each was but didn't know them. more over she had no idea for some time that Jane was even the accuser. She was not close to Jane, yet months after all this started was able to say "Nope I never saw leave class" "Nope she didn't act any differently than she did before." That's entirely different than recounting actual "memories" and events as did other's. She was a volunteer, reluctant because she said she was reluctant. She was creating the memories. They may have been accurate but they just as easily may not have been. At least the Florence Nurse had some expertise. But then compared to the First Step Nurse, so would have Alpha.

 

[CDAGRIZ]

So by knowing she would have to testify at some later date, observing, and taking notes or something? Stupider and stupider.

As opposed to say JJ's roomates who knew from the begining or the girls friends teaches etc who also knew from the begining or JJ 's roomates girlfriend or his Dad. All of whom gave informed testimony. The pharmacy student basically saying Well now looking back I don't recal her having problems There was no reason to think she should know anything.. Almost as stupid as Bell saying well looking back she had PTSD

How is any of the testimony you've described NOT from memory? Was there a flux capacitor involved? I am very confused by your posts. Please discuss.

The other witnesses (on both sides) knew from the very begining, or very close to it what happened (or at least what they were told) They also were friend and pretty close to whomever they were testifying for.

OK, I will ask it again: How is any of the testimony you've described NOT from memory?

 

[kemajic]

Incontrovertible proof! How does the Post know how many "rapists" are never accused...just wondering?

Good point. :?

There is a science called Statistics.. again, it is a science so not that you would ever hear that at a UM class, but just thought you should know!!

Tell that to the Chemistry, Biology, Physics, Forestry and Pharmacy departments at UM, all of which have a capability far beyond anything offered near Spokane. Meanwhile, statistics is a tool, not a science and is offered in the School of Business. There are of course advanced forms of statistics that appear in programs of all the sciences above and in group theory within chemistry. But I digress, as you cannot connect....

 

[Buttegrizzle]

OldtiredGriz "I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself."

Come On Man! Share with us! its a chatboard - nothing you say can be used against you...No one else shows any restraint - why start a dangerous trend?!!

 

[Ursa Major]

OldtiredGriz "I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself."

Come On Man! Share with us! its a chatboard - nothing you say can be used against you...No one else shows any restraint - why start a dangerous trend?!!

I too would welcome your input.

 

[JBS]

I'm wondering how to go about putting twitter tweets on here. Are there board rules about posting the link or telling the source and all that like normal webpages and articles, or is copy and paste o.k? I don't quite get the twitter thing or why anyone would really want to communicate that way, but some of the tweets are just begging for witty retorts.

 

[kemajic]

EWU: Football player accused of rape. Coach Immediately kicks him off team. University immediately kicks him out of school....

Exactly what happened in the case of Beau Donaldson for whom there was evidence that a rape had actually occurred; JJ, not so much as we have found out.

 

[bigforkgriz]

So by knowing she would have to testify at some later date, observing, and taking notes or something? Stupider and stupider.

As opposed to say JJ's roomates who knew from the begining or the girls friends teaches etc who also knew from the begining or JJ 's roomates girlfriend or his Dad. All of whom gave informed testimony. The pharmacy student basically saying Well now looking back I don't recal her having problems There was no reason to think she should know anything.. Almost as stupid as Bell saying well looking back she had PTSD

How is any of the testimony you've described NOT from memory? Was there a flux capacitor involved? I am very confused by your posts. Please discuss.

The other witnesses (on both sides) knew from the very begining, or very close to it what happened (or at least what they were told) They also were friend and pretty close to whomever they were testifying for. Up pops this girl. She knew who each was but didn't know them. more over she had no idea for some time that Jane was even the accuser. She was not close to Jane, yet months after all this started was able to say "Nope I never saw leave class" "Nope she didn't act any differently than she did before." That's entirely different than recounting actual "memories" and events as did other's. She was a volunteer, reluctant because she said she was reluctant. She was creating the memories. They may have been accurate but they just as easily may not have been. At least the Florence Nurse had some expertise. But then compared to the First Step Nurse, so would have Alpha.

Your comparing Alpha to a nurse. That is some good sh;t. Alpha on the stand would have been awesome.

 

[spokaneman]

There is a science called Statistics.. again, it is a science so not that you would ever hear that at a UM class, but just thought you should know!!

Meanwhile, statistics is a tool, not a science and is offered in the School of Business.But I digress, as you cannot connect....

Of Course you are right.... I certainly cannot connect!!

er.... wait!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_Science" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.imstat.org/sts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I had better tell Duke University that they are full of crap....
http://stat.duke.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

same for Baylor
http://www.baylor.edu/statistics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

same with SMU
https://www.smu.edu/Dedman/Academics/Departments/Statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:lol: :lol: you pompous griz slay me....

 

[CDAGRIZ]

There is a science called Statistics.. again, it is a science so not that you would ever hear that at a UM class, but just thought you should know!!

Meanwhile, statistics is a tool, not a science and is offered in the School of Business.But I digress, as you cannot connect....

Of Course you are right.... I certainly cannot connect!!

er.... wait!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_Science" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.imstat.org/sts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess I had better tell Duke University that they are full of crap....
http://stat.duke.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

same for Baylor
http://www.baylor.edu/statistics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

same with SMU
https://www.smu.edu/Dedman/Academics/Departments/Statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:lol: :lol: you pompous griz slay me....

I think the main point is that one cannot count the number of unreported rapes. It would be like if I said, "I don't know how many blue pens are in my desk drawer because I can't open it to check, but there are six blue pens in my desk drawer." That would not be a reliable statistic, and certainly not a science.

 

[griz4life]

WTF is "PTSD flavor" the Zoloft chip cone Baskin Robbins keeps under the counter? Dr. Bell sounded like biggest quack for pulling that out.

 

[JBS]

WTF is "PTSD flavor" the Zoloft chip cone Baskin Robbins keeps under the counter? Dr. Bell sounded like biggest quack for pulling that out.

I don't know, but it isn't near as good as "anxiety state, unspecified". I absolutely love that one.

 

[OldtiredGRiz]

OldtiredGriz "I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself."

Come On Man! Share with us! its a chatboard - nothing you say can be used against you...No one else shows any restraint - why start a dangerous trend?!!

I too would welcome your input.

One thing I do firmly believe is that cases are, and should be, tried in the courtroom and not in the media. And I'm something of a social dinosaur -- I don't use twitter, I don't use facebook; I don't even have a smart phone. The last time I was in a courtroom was in 1991 -- ironically enough to try a "he said/she said" case. Practicing criminal law and later on divorce law burned me out on the profession at a fairly young age. Since then, I've made my living largely by editing textbooks, college and legal. But back to the Johnson case; all my information is coming through once removed sources, Egriz, following Twitter, news outlets, etc and that's a big disadvantage because I think it's really important to be there live, watching the events as they unfold, watching body language, eye and facial expression, etc...but okay, enough of the disclaimers -- I think Paoli hit it right on the head with his train wreck analogy; a lot of external forces combined to push this case and in my opinion, phone calls were made insisting that a conviction be attained at any cost. In my opinion, Jane Doe's belief that she was sexually assaulted (or raped, insert your word of choice) was hit and pushed by that runaway train to the point of no return. Once the train started rolling, she had no choice but to stay on board. I don't think the evidence supports a conviction; I don't think it's even close. The State is trying to weave a Persian rug out of a couple strands of silk and there's just not enough material to get it done. Despite the weight of the oncoming train, I will be shocked if Johnson is convicted.

 

[griz4life]

OldtiredGriz "I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself."

Come On Man! Share with us! its a chatboard - nothing you say can be used against you...No one else shows any restraint - why start a dangerous trend?!!

I too would welcome your input.

One thing I do firmly believe is that cases are, and should be, tried in the courtroom and not in the media. And I'm something of a social dinosaur -- I don't use twitter, I don't use facebook; I don't even have a smart phone. The last time I was in a courtroom was in 1991 -- ironically enough to try a "he said/she said" case. Practicing criminal law and later on divorce law burned me out on the profession at a fairly young age. Since then, I've made my living largely by editing textbooks, college and legal. But back to the Johnson case; all my information is coming through once removed sources, Egriz, following Twitter, news outlets, etc and that's a big disadvantage because I think it's really important to be there live, watching the events as they unfold, watching body language, eye and facial expression, etc...but okay, enough of the disclaimers -- I think Paoli hit it right on the head with his train wreck analogy; a lot of external forces combined to push this case and in my opinion, phone calls were made insisting that a conviction be attained at any cost. In my opinion, Jane Doe's belief that she was sexually assaulted (or raped, insert your word of choice) was hit and pushed by that runaway train to the point of no return. Once the train started rolling, she had no choice but to stay on board. I don't think the evidence supports a conviction; I don't think it's even close. The State is trying to weave a Persian rug out of a couple strands of silk and there's just not enough material to get it done. Despite the weight of the oncoming train, I will be shocked if Johnson is convicted.

That train lacked track. Good perspective

 

[griz71]

OldtiredGriz "I have very strong opinions about the case at hand, but that's all they are; as such, I've kept them to myself."

Come On Man! Share with us! its a chatboard - nothing you say can be used against you...No one else shows any restraint - why start a dangerous trend?!!

I too would welcome your input.

One thing I do firmly believe is that cases are, and should be, tried in the courtroom and not in the media. And I'm something of a social dinosaur -- I don't use twitter, I don't use facebook; I don't even have a smart phone. The last time I was in a courtroom was in 1991 -- ironically enough to try a "he said/she said" case. Practicing criminal law and later on divorce law burned me out on the profession at a fairly young age. Since then, I've made my living largely by editing textbooks, college and legal. But back to the Johnson case; all my information is coming through once removed sources, Egriz, following Twitter, news outlets, etc and that's a big disadvantage because I think it's really important to be there live, watching the events as they unfold, watching body language, eye and facial expression, etc...but okay, enough of the disclaimers -- I think Paoli hit it right on the head with his train wreck analogy; a lot of external forces combined to push this case and in my opinion, phone calls were made insisting that a conviction be attained at any cost. In my opinion, Jane Doe's belief that she was sexually assaulted (or raped, insert your word of choice) was hit and pushed by that runaway train to the point of no return. Once the train started rolling, she had no choice but to stay on board. I don't think the evidence supports a conviction; I don't think it's even close. The State is trying to weave a Persian rug out of a couple strands of silk and there's just not enough material to get it done. Despite the weight of the oncoming train, I will be shocked if Johnson is convicted.

Like your summary ORG. :thumb:

 

[grizindabox]

So by knowing she would have to testify at some later date, observing, and taking notes or something? Stupider and stupider.

As opposed to say JJ's roomates who knew from the begining or the girls friends teaches etc who also knew from the begining or JJ 's roomates girlfriend or his Dad. All of whom gave informed testimony. The pharmacy student basically saying Well now looking back I don't recal her having problems There was no reason to think she should know anything.. Almost as stupid as Bell saying well looking back she had PTSD

How is any of the testimony you've described NOT from memory? Was there a flux capacitor involved? I am very confused by your posts. Please discuss.

The other witnesses (on both sides) knew from the very begining, or very close to it what happened (or at least what they were told) They also were friend and pretty close to whomever they were testifying for. Up pops this girl. She knew who each was but didn't know them. more over she had no idea for some time that Jane was even the accuser. She was not close to Jane, yet months after all this started was able to say "Nope I never saw leave class" "Nope she didn't act any differently than she did before." That's entirely different than recounting actual "memories" and events as did other's. She was a volunteer, reluctant because she said she was reluctant. She was creating the memories. They may have been accurate but they just as easily may not have been. At least the Florence Nurse had some expertise. But then compared to the First Step Nurse, so would have Alpha.

tnt, I think you are incorrect on your perception of how well the Pharm student knew people, how much she knew, and how soon she knew it.

 

[Phat Cat]

You don't text "I think I was just raped." to your roommate. If you were just raped you would say "I was just raped. Get the f..k in here and save me." and you don't sent a text to someone with a smiley face on it just after you were rape. You would say "I'm sorry, I can't come pick you up, I was just raped and I'm going to see the police." At least that's how I see it.

 

[cclarkblues]

Washington Post:

:shock:

EDIT: Colin O'Keefe ‏@colinokeefe
The #JohnsonTrial has come to a close. Though most I see think he will, can Jordan Johnson overcome stats like this? http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/01/rape_infographic.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …

That is so much BS about only 2% falsely accused. One study that was published in a professional journal showed at least 41% were false accusations. So, who you gonna believe? Science or anti male activists?

Umm....I think your printer's running out of ink.