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Investigated for murder; busted for jaywalking

justanotherfan

Well-known member
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!
 
I agree! I always thought that the so called president should get the boot without notice. The U of M would be better off.
 
justanotherfan said:
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Couldn't disagree with you more. While I'm not a RE fan, the correct thing they did was hire the law firm expirenced with the NCAA. You don't win when you fight with the NCAA, they don't answer to anybody especially when you are a small school. The NCAA does very limited investigation, and mostly rode the coattails of the DOJ. But you knew that after being around for 18 months, they had to come back with something. Also, when they talk about self imposed, that is because our representation made suggestions to them based upon similar penalties for similar incidents. I do think some of the findings were petty, but the University did some things to cause them to come knocking on the door. A lot of what the NCAA does is just crazy, but it is the system we have and we need to work better within the confines of the system. What the University deserves is a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation.

Bottomline, is it is over for now. These kids will rise above this and play their butts off this year. They deserve the fans coming out and cheering them on and not making any excuses. Let this year be viewed not by what happened, but let these kids and the University be judged on how they react and move forward. Playing hard and being competitve will define this team. Just like the tunnel pledge says, this is not the place for the timid or the weak. This team has been entrusted to remind people that WE ARE MONTANA!
 
Born2BaGriz said:
justanotherfan said:
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Couldn't disagree with you more. While I'm not a RE fan, the correct thing they did was hire the law firm expirenced with the NCAA. You don't win when you fight with the NCAA, they don't answer to anybody especially when you are a small school. The NCAA does very limited investigation, and mostly rode the coattails of the DOJ. But you knew that after being around for 18 months, they had to come back with something. Also, when they talk about self imposed, that is because our representation made suggestions to them based upon similar penalties for similar incidents. I do think some of the findings were petty, but the University did some things to cause them to come knocking on the door. A lot of what the NCAA does is just crazy, but it is the system we have and we need to work better within the confines of the system. What the University deserves is a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation.

Bottomline, is it is over for now. These kids will rise above this and play their butts off this year. They deserve the fans coming out and cheering them on and not making any excuses. Let this year be viewed not by what happened, but let these kids and the University be judged on how they react and move forward. Playing hard and being competitve will define this team. Just like the tunnel pledge says, this is not the place for the timid or the weak. This team has been entrusted to remind people that WE ARE MONTANA!

"a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation."

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.
 
CatzWillRise said:
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.

Reading your posts. :lol:
 
Born2BaGriz said:
justanotherfan said:
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Couldn't disagree with you more. While I'm not a RE fan, the correct thing they did was hire the law firm expirenced with the NCAA. You don't win when you fight with the NCAA, they don't answer to anybody especially when you are a small school. The NCAA does very limited investigation, and mostly rode the coattails of the DOJ. But you knew that after being around for 18 months, they had to come back with something. Also, when they talk about self imposed, that is because our representation made suggestions to them based upon similar penalties for similar incidents. I do think some of the findings were petty, but the University did some things to cause them to come knocking on the door. A lot of what the NCAA does is just crazy, but it is the system we have and we need to work better within the confines of the system. What the University deserves is a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation.

Bottomline, is it is over for now. These kids will rise above this and play their butts off this year. They deserve the fans coming out and cheering them on and not making any excuses. Let this year be viewed not by what happened, but let these kids and the University be judged on how they react and move forward. Playing hard and being competitve will define this team. Just like the tunnel pledge says, this is not the place for the timid or the weak. This team has been entrusted to remind people that WE ARE MONTANA!

:clap: :clap:
 
Proud Griz Man said:
CatzWillRise said:
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.

Reading your posts. :lol:

For how long? ;) I'm a Civil War buff... I could giving some rousing informative posts on it.

Also did you know that the toothpick is the oldest dental instrument for cleaning?
 
Born2BaGriz said:
justanotherfan said:
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Couldn't disagree with you more. While I'm not a RE fan, the correct thing they did was hire the law firm expirenced with the NCAA. You don't win when you fight with the NCAA, they don't answer to anybody especially when you are a small school. The NCAA does very limited investigation, and mostly rode the coattails of the DOJ. But you knew that after being around for 18 months, they had to come back with something. Also, when they talk about self imposed, that is because our representation made suggestions to them based upon similar penalties for similar incidents. I do think some of the findings were petty, but the University did some things to cause them to come knocking on the door. A lot of what the NCAA does is just crazy, but it is the system we have and we need to work better within the confines of the system. What the University deserves is a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation.

Bottomline, is it is over for now. These kids will rise above this and play their butts off this year. They deserve the fans coming out and cheering them on and not making any excuses. Let this year be viewed not by what happened, but let these kids and the University be judged on how they react and move forward. Playing hard and being competitve will define this team. Just like the tunnel pledge says, this is not the place for the timid or the weak. This team has been entrusted to remind people that WE ARE MONTANA!

Engstrom and the University waited 6 months to hire the NCAA lawyer. Who in their right mind would wait for 6 months to hire an experienced law firm? Many mistakes were probably already made by then. The lawyer hired is not exactly one of the bigtime lawyers in the field. He was inexpensive. Apparently some but limited experience.
 
CatzWillRise said:
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.

UM didn't knowingly use ineligible players. UM didn't know the the mom was a booster or what she had done was a problem. UM didn't know the legal arrangements the players had arranged. The NCAA later took the position that the players were ineligible. Just because UM and Engstrom later agreed to some of this, in order to conclude the investigation, doesn't mean they knew it at the time. Do you really think UM would knowingly use ineligible players?
 
The lawyer hired is not exactly one of the bigtime lawyers in the field. He was inexpensive. Apparently some but limited experience.

Actually, Buckner has a fair amount of experience in NCAA matters, and was even a former consultant to the NCAA. I'd say he knew his way around an investigation.

I think it's time we stop trying to blame someone. Bad shit happened. The ncca came. They found issues, just as everyone knew they would. Penalties were leveled, just as everyone knew they would. The matter is now closed everywhere but on bcn, where no doubt there are 15 threads regarding it.

Let's move on.

Beat App.
 
EverettGriz said:
The lawyer hired is not exactly one of the bigtime lawyers in the field. He was inexpensive. Apparently some but limited experience.

Actually, Buckner has a fair amount of experience in NCAA matters, and was even a former consultant to the NCAA. I'd say he knew his way around an investigation.

I think it's time we stop trying to blame someone. Bad shit happened. The ncca came. They found issues, just as everyone knew they would. Penalties were leveled, just as everyone knew they would. The matter is now closed everywhere but on bcn, where no doubt there are 15 threads regarding it.

Let's move on.

Beat App.


From Buckner's website. I don't see much experience representing D-I schools in NCAA investigations. Look at the years in the second and third bullet points. Even on his website, there isn't much experience listed.

•Provided a national collegiate sports regulatory organization with the following services: conducting investigative audits of non-traditional secondary (high) schools; and reporting to the organization as to the existence of a valid program for educational instruction and advancement at each identified secondary school, including verification of the school’s claimed accreditation and the existence and fulfillment of reasonable accreditation standards.
•Represented a NCAA Division I institution during the NCAA enforcement process (including an internal investigation involving numerous sports programs). Further, conducted a comprehensive NCAA initial- and continuing-eligibility audit of all student-athletes files during the 1999-2000 through 2002-03 academic years.
•Represented a NCAA Division I institution during the NCAA enforcement process (including an internal investigation involving numerous sports programs) and provided consulting advice on revisions to the institution’s (including the athletics department’s) operations, structure, policies, and procedures. Further, conducted a comprehensive initial- and continuing-eligibility audit of all student-athletes files during the 1998-99 through 2003-04 academic years. Finally, represented the institution before the Committee on Infractions.
•Advised a NCAA Division I institution with identifying opportunities for process improvement in the athletics department’s operations, structure, policies, and procedures.
•Advised (ongoing project) a NCAA Division I institution with identifying opportunities for process improvement in the athletics department’s policies and procedures.
•Conducted a NCAA enforcement sanctions verification audit for a NCAA Division I institution.
•Conducted a compliance review for a NCAA Division I institution.
•Represented a NCAA Division I institution before the Committee on Infractions, conducted an internal investigation involving its men’s basketball program, and provided consulting advice on revisions to the athletics department’s operations, structure, policies, and procedures.
•Represented a NAIA institution involving an appeal of the NAIA’s suspension of the client’s men’s basketball program.
•Advised and assisted a NCAA Division III institution with issues involving NCAA transfer and eligibility legislation.
•Represented a NCAA Division I institution before the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement in a case involving an international men’s basketball student-athlete.
•Advised and assisted a NCAA Division I institution in preparing a student-athlete reinstatement appeal brief in a case involving men’s basketball student-athletes.
•Assisted a NCAA Division I institution with the resolution of legal issues pertaining to the termination of a coaching employment relationship and provided consulting advice on the structuring of future coaches’ employment agreements.
•Advised and assisted a NCAA Division I institution in the preparation of a student-athlete reinstatement appeal brief in a case involving a football student-athlete.
 
Washgrizfan1 said:
CatzWillRise said:
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.

UM didn't knowingly use ineligible players. UM didn't know the the mom was a booster or what she had done was a problem. UM didn't know the legal arrangements the players had arranged. The NCAA later took the position that the players were ineligible. Just because UM and Engstrom later agreed to some of this, in order to conclude the investigation, doesn't mean they knew it at the time. Do you really think UM would knowingly use ineligible players?
+1
 
Washgrizfan1 said:
CatzWillRise said:
What do you think the punishment should be for a program that knowingly (per NCAA report) used ineligible players to compete for a national championship? And provided improper (albeit very minor) benefits to players?

I am curious what you think is fair. Most of you seem to think that you only got busted for kids eating free hot dogs, but in reality there is so much more to it than that.

UM didn't knowingly use ineligible players. UM didn't know the the mom was a booster or what she had done was a problem. UM didn't know the legal arrangements the players had arranged. The NCAA later took the position that the players were ineligible. Just because UM and Engstrom later agreed to some of this, in order to conclude the investigation, doesn't mean they knew it at the time. Do you really think UM would knowingly use ineligible players?


Therein lies some of the problem. UM didn't know about this or about that when they probably should have known. Don't get me wrong I think the NCAA report is total BS, but in this day and age with the way the NCAA is, the compliance officers are probably the institutions most important people. They have to know EVERYTHING. Yes, it's BS, but thats the way it is.
 
Born2BaGriz said:
justanotherfan said:
The penalties for the violations discovered in the NCAA investigation do not fit the crime. According to news reports the penalties, "many self-imposed by the school", include a three-year probationary period, the loss of four scholarships in each of the next three seasons and vacating five wins in which ineligible players participated after receiving help with their legal problems that is not allowed under NCAA rules.

At first I was accepting of the findings...until I heard the rest of the story. Agreeing to these penalties for these "violations" adds more tarnish to the reputation of the University and will further impact fundraising, recruiting, tuition costs and budget deficits.

The NCAA is probably snickering that President Engstrom agreed to offer these self-imposed penalties. One more glaring example that he is over his head.

The University of Montana deserves better!

Couldn't disagree with you more. While I'm not a RE fan, the correct thing they did was hire the law firm expirenced with the NCAA. You don't win when you fight with the NCAA, they don't answer to anybody especially when you are a small school. The NCAA does very limited investigation, and mostly rode the coattails of the DOJ. But you knew that after being around for 18 months, they had to come back with something. Also, when they talk about self imposed, that is because our representation made suggestions to them based upon similar penalties for similar incidents. I do think some of the findings were petty, but the University did some things to cause them to come knocking on the door. A lot of what the NCAA does is just crazy, but it is the system we have and we need to work better within the confines of the system. What the University deserves is a President with a set of testicles and should have been out there more talking about all of the good things, and call the Missoulian to task for basically any story regarding UM, having a reference to the ongoing investigation.

Bottomline, is it is over for now. These kids will rise above this and play their butts off this year. They deserve the fans coming out and cheering them on and not making any excuses. Let this year be viewed not by what happened, but let these kids and the University be judged on how they react and move forward. Playing hard and being competitve will define this team. Just like the tunnel pledge says, this is not the place for the timid or the weak. This team has been entrusted to remind people that WE ARE MONTANA!

Great post and could not agree more. Time to move on. Karma will take care of RE.
 
Washgrizfan1 said:
UM didn't knowingly use ineligible players. UM didn't know the the mom was a booster or what she had done was a problem. UM didn't know the legal arrangements the players had arranged. The NCAA later took the position that the players were ineligible. Just because UM and Engstrom later agreed to some of this, in order to conclude the investigation, doesn't mean they knew it at the time. Do you really think UM would knowingly use ineligible players?

Of course UM knew they were ineligible, not only did UM fu*k that up they shouldnt have been playing anyway because they broke the law got tased and arrested. They should have been done for the season so it would never have been an issue.

That isnt how UM rolls under ODay, Hauck they push this sh*t under the rug create a culture where other players see what happening and think screw it Im gonna buy some X, Im gonna drive my car into somebodys house, pull a gun, curb stomp a frat boy.....WHY? Because I wont lose any playing time thats why.

You guys that are still harping on Engstrom, and the fact we got caught are almost a bigger problem than UM cheating and allowing this culture to exist. Not only that your fu*king embarrassing to your parents, the state of Montana and YOUR president.

:coffee:

STFU already, we got caught, we have been punished and real men own it and move on since its in the past. Quit baggin on the only guy with balls, Engstrom saved our ass and did the right thing sh*tcanning ODay and the coach that paid for Haucks mess.
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
Washgrizfan1 said:
UM didn't knowingly use ineligible players. UM didn't know the the mom was a booster or what she had done was a problem. UM didn't know the legal arrangements the players had arranged. The NCAA later took the position that the players were ineligible. Just because UM and Engstrom later agreed to some of this, in order to conclude the investigation, doesn't mean they knew it at the time. Do you really think UM would knowingly use ineligible players?

Of course UM knew they were ineligible, not only did UM fu*k that up they shouldnt have been playing anyway because they broke the law got tased and arrested. They should have been done for the season so it would never have been an issue.

That isnt how UM rolls under ODay, Hauck they push this sh*t under the rug create a culture where other players see what happening and think screw it Im gonna buy some X, Im gonna drive my car into somebodys house, pull a gun, curb stomp a frat boy.....WHY? Because I wont lose any playing time thats why.

You guys that are still harping on Engstrom, and the fact we got caught are almost a bigger problem than UM cheating and allowing this culture to exist. Not only that your fu*king embarrassing to your parents, the state of Montana and YOUR president.

:coffee:

STFU already, we got caught, we have been punished and real men own it and move on since its in the past. Quit baggin on the only guy with balls, Engstrom saved our ass and did the right thing sh*tcanning ODay and the coach that paid for Haucks mess.
That was fluffy not Hauck that created this problem !! Fluffy was the coach that didn't make sure his players were eligible before playing them . If it serves me correct fluffy got a one game suspension to start the season not Hauck !!
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
Hauck started the whole thug mobile Pflu just got caught holding the keys.
All penalties were enforced over the way fluffy handled this mess with tru and kemp , I just have a hard time seeing how Hauck has anything to do with any of this . Hauck did bring in some questionable kids but what coach doesn't . Hell ash even tried a kid Hauck booted the kid curb stomped someone in Bozeman to got booted there to . Hauck handled trouble kids way better than fluffy!
 
ALPHAGRIZ1 said:
Hauck started the whole thug mobile Pflu just got caught holding the keys.
You can manage to work your never-ending hate for Bobby Hauck into most any conversation, can't you?
 
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