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Get off Phencie's case, we rank number 3.


Well-known member
National Rankings

Southern 41.67 ppg
San Diego 39.90 ppg
Montana 38.17 ppg (our last 6 games)

What you want number 1?

Well next year we will be, so relax.

Let's shore up our Defense.
you can't take partial stats....or you could do stuff like this.....yeah but in out last 7 games we lost 3 (winning percentage .571) and lost two of those in overtime (with both games having problems scoring TD's when 1st and ten at or inside the 10 yard line)....and in those losses have the ball for the final drives in regulation with chances to win but stall out. Good teams win the close ones, and yesterday the defense held them to a field goal in 2nd OT...offense went concervative and FG was blocked.
I don't care how many points a team averages. If you don't score MORE than the other team EVERY game, you lose. End of discussion.
Unless something good happens with offensive coaching and unless something good happens with offensive play calling and unless something good happens with play making receivers and unless something really good happens with dependable quarterbacking.....well.....get the drift? # 3 is not # 1. The team deserves better. 8)
ronnie, why you have to skew the stats.

Its not really fair for good or bad if you only compare the Griz's last 6 games to the others whom you take the whole year's total.

in all games the griz ave 33.6 points a game on offense.

not horrendous, but not 38 as you said.

but still putting us behind teams like...

Northern Colorado ,Dayton ,Alabama State , Yale , Nicholls State Valparaiso, New Hampshire and Alabama A&M.
18 teams in all, but many good teams that don't surprise me.

yards per game was 367...putting us around #60. thats about in the middle. zippidy do.

On the defense you were maligning we averaged allowing 20.5 points a game. put us at 29th in the nation. 22cd in the nation for total yards allowed with 310.

But really stats dont tell the story about what was good and what wasn't.
I was going to quit talking about phenicie, but you won't let it go. if you want to think he's an offensive genius go right ahead, but the players past and present don't think he is.
When the other team knows what plays you're calling most of the time things aren't going well.
also, show me where our passing game improved. by the end of the season one would think that a coach would have been able to get his team to improve across the board. the running game was good and got better and got about as good as it was going to(which is very good IMHO) about half way into the season. the passing game got steadily worse.
If the wrs were all new i could see blaming them or if the qb was some hack then him too. but alas, while we might not have game brekers we have good wrs and a great TE and an amazing qb in Ochs.
Football 101 would tell most OCs that if your wrs aren't burners then have them run short and medium routes...same if the qb isn't great.
Did we see much of that? nope.
Also keep in mind that when a team is passing mostly on 3rd down as the Griz did the chance for success using it goes down exponentially as does the passing game that isn't used much.

If you contend that the players are "average at best" as you say about Ochs then its actually impossible to tell if the OC is good as weather or not a good play is called it wont work right.

On the other hand if a qb is great and has pretty good wrs and they show little or no improvement it raises a red flag that they're not being used properly.

If you want to think Phenicie is great, its your right and i repsect that, even if i don't agree. If you're happy that the offense couldn't pass well that's your right too. but i still feel bad for the players who have to play for a guy who they don't think highly of and who they dont think knows what he's doing.

I notice nobody complained about Richards being let go, and while many have pointed out Phenicie's shortcomings not many have called for him to be fired. and in fact some have figuratively rushed to his aid to support him and his performance as OC, while badmouthing players and blaming them for the OC's problems. interesting. before the season many of those same guys thought those same players were pretty good and they weren't complaining about having them come back to play.

And so while it is your right to think Phenicie did a great job, it is other's right to not share that opinion and perhaps even think he didn't do a great job. are we so politicly correct that we can't have an unfavorable opionon of someone's performance?

In the end i guess it doesn't matter what anyone thinks of him as its up to Hauck and Hogan as to what Phenicie does. but even if he stays, which i think he will, it won't make him a good qb mentor and to have a truely great passing game thats what a team needs. we didn't have one in cockhill either and it showed.
With any of the previous 4 or 5 offensive coordinators we have had, this group would have been in the top 3 by a LONG margin.
ronbo said:
National Rankings

Southern 41.67 ppg
San Diego 39.90 ppg
Montana 38.17 ppg (our last 6 games)

What you want number 1?

Well next year we will be, so relax.

Let's shore up our Defense.

The stat that just irked me was aprox. 2 runs for every pass.

How many grabs did Talmadge have? 24 FOR THE YEAR!


i am trying to be supportive of this staff....

hey it's football, AND SOMETIMES you have to change plans to win with what you got... but man, come on, the OC or BH has gone way beyond that with the system ( I use the term loosely!)

I like our running game...but it has to be accompanied with a passing game...and 2003...it was not!

Why you are trying to skew the numbers...it is what it is.




That rant being said...i support this staff, and team... for one more year....BH has to do what he feel's is right....but i do not have to like it or agree with it all. No one can chalenge my love for this team...I have been sick about it all for 2 weeks now!


read em and weep!


GO GRIZ-2004
I really don't blame the coaching staff for not returning us to the Don Read era. The injuries in the early part of the year made that unreasonable, and they did a great job against Idaho when we simply couldn't throw the ball.

And, I hate to admit it, but I was actually enjoying the running game. It sounds strange to even say that.

However, they certainly didn't use the talent that we had the rest of the year. Ochs is a good QB. Our receivers are good receivers. Our line was recruited and raised to pass block. Yet, we didn't even make a good effort at it. It honestly appeared that the OC was afraid to even attempt to establish the passing game, and I think that was a fatal flaw in our season.

The one thing we have lost since Don Read (although it has been a slow progression) is the killer instinct. We never seem to put teams away anymore. Even Joe Glenn and Mick Dennehy seemed to let teams stick around until the end, when the game should be long over. I can't figure that out.
I think the thing that has thrown me (and probably many of you, from the sound of it) is how almost the same receiving corps, with the addition of a QB deemed better by everyone but the Edwards family, a veteran pass-blocking line, and the rise of a formerly nearly unused Jefferson Heidelberger, could have devolved into a much worse passing attack than the previous year's. How could we have two receivers who both had over 50 receptions one year have only 24 (Talmage) and 18 (Segars) the next? I realize that the pass offense was hamstrung by injuries to Talmage, Disney, and Ochs and LV's apparent difficulty picking it up, but still...

The 2003 Griz pass offense was undeniably worse than 2002's, an offense which often led Griz fans to trash John Edwards. What is the real problem now? Could it be that:

1. JE wasn't really all that bad, or that much worse than Craig Ochs, as a passer, or

2. Coach Phenicie (or BH as Phenicie's overriding head coach) is not a very good play-caller, teacher, or designer, or

3. All of the Griz receivers actually got worse with a year of seasoning?

Like many of you, I miss the Griz screen game, which makes good-blocking, shifty small receivers into game breakers. We've got those in abundance. Why not use them? How many screens did we throw all year? I'll bet we threw more screens in many games in 2002 and before than we did all year in 2003. If the receivers are having difficulty getting off coverage at the line, whatever happened to crossing patterns that pick off coverage? Why weren't the running backs and tight ends put into the mix more often as receivers? Lex Hilliard in the open with the ball is a very dangerous prospect for other teams to defend against. Why did he have so few throws to him (9 catches all year)?

Another thing to consider is that a passing game requires many repetitions to become a force. Even if the QBs had a lot of reps in practice, if they're only throwing a few passes per game, it's very difficult to get a rhythm going during a game.

Bring back the passing game, BH. We like the improved running game, and Justin and Lex are terrific, but we need a strong passing game to win any more titles, either BSC or national.
a side note.

Our running game was awesome....if our passing game took advantage of the screens, TE hot routes, and more passes to our WR for a few yards, then we would still have a great running game (probably better...it's not like there was any question as what we were doing on 1st and 2nd down)

the more pass play's would have enabled us to have the ball "More"....ultimately evening out the run/pass ratio.

just my theory.

GO GRIZ- 2004
The strong Griz running game should have forced opponents linebackers to move up and stop the run, which exposes their defense to passes. The Griz did not take advantage of that weakness in defenses. The passing routes, system and timing were poor, and as a result the passing game was not productive. The OC has to take responsibility for that.