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Developing youth

M

mtgrizrule

Well-known member
I hope a few will chime in on this. I am watching Gonzaga, and Butler play tonight. Granted, I know these programs are currently at a higher level than the GRIZ, but nonetheless have built great basketball programs at the midmajor level.

Gonzaga is fortunate enough to compete for the better players in the nation, and able to recruit every position at a high level. Meanwhile, Butler has a consistent system, and self confidence in their program, and it shows in each program consistently competing at high level.

Please don't bring up these programs recruit a better caliber player than we do. I already know that. One thing that stands out to me, especially Gonzaga, is how their staff's build freshman and sophomores early. Every year, it seems these programs have 2 or 3 freshman as part of an 8 man rotation, and getting 15 plus minutes per game. I have watched Gonzaga a lot the last decade, and every year without fail, they stay committed to mixing in their youth, no matter the ups and downs in doing so.

Good examples are Harris, Stockton, and Pangos (sp?) the last few years. During early season their games are up and down, like an yoyo, yet Few still sticks with them. One game Pangos lights up the scoreboard, the next struggles with his shot, and turnovers galore, yet he is still getting his minutes. Few seems to never doubt committing minutes to build these guys. Year after year, it pays off for them. Yet, there are other talented older players that could be taking those minutes.

I admit, I like how the GRIZ developed Will Cherry, and Kareem Jamar. I absolutely love these guys, as players. Yet this season, we have an inconsistent team, and choose to stick with Wood, and Stockton over developing the likes of Deshields, Gregory, and Henderson. Arguably the most talented trio of freshman we have had in a long time.

I know different coaches have different philosophies on player management. Deshields is getting slowly elevated into a larger role, which I am excited about. From the little we have seen of Henderson, and Gregory, they look comfortable out there, and certainly bring more upside this year, and long term than Wood, and Stockton, which both had an occasional good game, here and there. I just don't see enough of what they bring consistently that justifies not developing Gregory, and Henderson more.

Granted, I no longer have the benefit of seeing the practices, or games in person other than a few times per year. I do focus hard on every GRIZ game on my computer screen. I love coach Tinkle, and proud to have as our coach, but what might his approach be verses Few's approach? Is it a comfort level Wayne may have with his Sr's, that he does not have with Freshman? Is it a matter of making the younger guys earn the playing time more (Reader), than feeling like they are being given the time? Is it behind the scenes things we do not see at practices? Is it X, and O's?

I honestly do not know, and it drives me crazy when I see how talented our youth is. Reader is by far our best Big in the paint, and the only one with a defensive presence. Henderson is an unreal athlete, that I can see taking the ball to the hole, and creating foul trouble for opponents. Gregory, looks like a true PG with a solid shot, and no fear. Deshields, is a defensive menace, brings attitude, and has a solid perimeter game, and can play either guard position well. Weisner, is very composed for a FR RS, and can bring some good offense, if given opportunity to find his game, and still learning on Defense. I honestly see why his minutes are limited with who is ahead of him.

I just don't see, or understand not building Henderson, Gregory, and Deshields more, though. What will it take for the GRIZ to start leaning toward an youth movement, and make these guys part of an 8 to 9 man rotation? I just don't see the consistency from the older guys either. I know there is limited minutes to go around. Does it not make sense to take a chance on building the young guys, knowing it will benefit the program come years, and the next 3 years, as well?

Can some please give me their outlook on this? Am I not seeing something from Wood, and Stockton that would get me to understand the reasoning behind their minutes? What do others see in our young players? (Deshields, Henderson, Gregory, Reader, and Weisner). We are about to start league play, when the games count. I am surprised this the out of conference play was not used to build these guys more. After all, only 1 Big Sky team makes the big dance, and it is won, or lost in conference play.

I hope to see a youth movement, sooner than later. :thumb:
 
I will attempt to take a stab at your questions regarding the youth movement and why our coaches are not giving the younger players more game time experience. As we have all seen in the games to this point we are struggling with the loss of Quale. I feel Tinkle is trying to create a cohesiveness among the veterans so that we are more competitive on the court and as we head into conference play. It is important to remember that these freshmen are 18 and 19 year old young men away from home for the first time and they are trying to balance academics, basketball, social relationships and so on. We cannot get into the minds of these youngsters but it is a delicate balance for the coaches to try and understand how to deal with each of these individuals. Some you can jump on and be demanding and they respond by taking it out on the opposing teams. Others will tend to sulk and become withdrawn and not put forth the effort. A couple of weeks ago I asked Tinkle why he had burned so many of the red shirts and I thought he gave a great answer. "We want everyone of our guys to practice like they have the chance to play in the next game." It has been Tinkle's philosophy is that you earn your game time on the practice floor. So it's ok for us fans to question some of the coaching decisions but we do not have the luxury of working with these young men every day on the practice court. Probably not a satisfactory answer to your question but we have to give the coaching staff some credit for understanding what they are dealing with on a day to day basis.
 
DB, that is kind of answer I was looking for. Especially the answer Tinkle gave you. Believe me, I love Tinkle as our coach, and hope he turns out to be another Coach Selvig, but for Mens Basketball. To be honest, his answer makes complete sense too. I just wonder how this balance works so well for some programs, yet is a crap shoot for other programs? I can only judge what I see from an internet feed, and few live games a year. In my opinion, there is a noticeable difference in talent/potential with our youth, than a few of our SR's.

Got to admit, Tinkle has much more reserve, and patience with this upper classmen, and the temptation to get the youth on the court, than I ever would have. There is a lot of young talent on that bench right now. I pray that talent stays here too.
 
Woods and Stockton are seniors but inconsistent at best. In fact, the biggest consistency in Woods is his lack of offense. He also is a horrible free throw shooter. I share your concern regarding the lack of playing time for the true freshman. I don't think they have been given a chance to show what they can do. Given what Stockton and Woods have done so far this year, I don't see that the Griz have much to lose in giving the young guys an opportunity. With league about to start, I am pessimistic that anything will change, though.
 
grizrule has stated the obvious: gonzaga and now butler attract a higher level of recruit than montana can. thus my argument for giving some kids a redshirt year. the way to build a program at montana is to have a few fifth-year seniors on the team every year, guys who perform at a much level than they would have as true freshmen, and probably at a higher level than those stellar freshmen in other programs. guys who give stablity to the team year in and year out. what if we'd traded that awful freshman year qvale had for one this year? why burn off a year for gregory and henderson when it seems the only playing time they're going to get is the last minute of a 15 point win against a team like portland? it sure looks to me like henderson, especially, could use a year to grow physically. so if i'm the coach, i pick two freshmen each year and redshirt them. it's an investment in the future of the program.

but overall, i agree with grizrule's analysis. i would much prefer to see the younger players get more playing time. but time always shows us what we couldn't see at the time. the qvale decision was a mistake, but maybe henderson and gregory will pay dividends this year. maybe one hits a buzzer beater in the big sky championship game. if so, you read it here first.
 
Obviously without seeing the day to day workings of the team we are all just speculating. I too question some of these things but I am confident that no one wants to win more than Tinkle. It is his lively hood after all and I am sure he wants to keep his job. That being the case it gets hard for me to question him to much giving his record of success. I know the Wood hate on here is only rivaled by the Selvig hate but I still say this team has gotten more consistent with his increase in playing time. The freshmen show potential but who is to say that Wood isn't taking them to the proverbial woodshed everyday in practice. I really doubt Tinkle is saying to himself, boy that Kevin is a hell of an athlete and is beating Jordan in practice but I am going to play Wood just because.

Citay I am with you on the red-shirting. I wish Henderson and Gregory would have red-shirted or been asked to, whatever the case may have been. Your right, a 5th year SR is going to be better than almost any freshmen we get, unless of course the next John Wall decides Missoula is the place for him. Damn UK,KU or Duke.

Another thing to consider is off the court issues. These guys are students first. We would never know if they have grade issues or a propensity to skip class. One would think not all of them do but it would not be a shocker to learn that was something one or two of them struggles with.

Game time is really just a small part of a players development. Remember that they play against other D1 kids every single day. They learn from a really good coaching staff every single day. To say that they are not being developed for the future seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Lastly, There is an inherent flaw in this thinking. What if we did play this group of freshman and they turn into studs. What do we do with the freshmen when these guys are upperclassmen. Do we tell them now that they are SRs they have to sit so the younger guys can play?

Maybe I am just an optimist or cheerleader or kool-aid drinker but I think we are rounding into shape and we are a couple buckets in those close losses away from sitting here talking about what a stellar job Tinkle is doing this year.
 
Coaches play for the now, not the future. This is the case for any program competing for a conference title and/or NCAA birth. I suppose that this might change for a program that is in chambles or something, but even at that, these guys still want to win each and every game. This being said, they will play the players that give them the best chance to compete and win. Gonzage plays freshman because they are the best players at their position, no other reason. To think that Mark Few or Wayne Tinkle would sacrifice their teams success for the development of Freshman is rediculous. Thats what practice is for. We can agree or disagree with their rotations, player choices, etc., but in the end they are the ones who know whats best for the program.
 
Let me say it again. I 100% support Tinkle as our coach, and am not saying he should play these guys more. I am just trying to weigh the reasons behind each mindset/philosophy. Maybe, some of it is the success I see with other mid major programs competing at a higher level more consistent.

Redshirting freshman is certainly a key for them.

Also from what I have been taught, and read about coaching, rather it be basketball, baseball, or football, etc, when the players are near equal it is best to ride out the experience. However, if and when an upperclassman is not getting the job done, that is when to go with younger players.

In this case, this year, The GRIZ have a little of both going on.

Wood is scrappy, smart, and solid defensively, but very seldom shows up offensively. Yet does have the ability to do so. I admit, when you watch him, the talent is there. The results are often are not.

Stockton is usually good for a good spark every other game, and beat the hell out of anyone that confronts him. I wish he were a 6'8" plus paint player. His perimeter shot is much better this year, and he is consistent enough in his role to see why he gets the time he does.

I can understand the playing the older players in the backcourt, and see some the factors going into the decision making. The front court though is a different story. Reader is our only consistent defensive paint presence, and the most athletic paint player too. Unlike some here, I completely understand why Selvig is on the court, and know part of his play is from injuries. Selvig was way more active offensively, and defensively against Portland, and looked much more comfortable on the court. Providing no further bad luck/setbacks, Selvig's play will round into form. Other than Selvig, I honestly feel the frontcourt player that makes this team better is Reader, hands down. Ward is a nice scorer, rebounder, etc against guys his size, but has a lot of trouble against bigger guys. Hutchison is still young, and trying to find his way, but just not as ready as Reader is now. I think part of Reader's problem is foul trouble. The level of officiating we usually draw kills him, just like it did with Qvale. Reader is physical, and plays with some attitude, and in turn gets a lot of petty calls against him. Very few of his his fouls are from doing anything wrong fundamentally. I just wish officials would let the kid play. He would be much better served with Pac 12, MWC officiating. Whistle happy BSC caliber officiating is his worst enemy. I do hope he learns to stay out of foul trouble, and hope we commit more minutes to Reader. I like him A LOT as a player.

For me, I see the potential these Freshman have, and it just makes me wonder how good are they? When will their time come? Will it be too late, when their time comes? Also, considering our offense goes through a 4 to 10 minute slump in most every game, I wonder if one of these guys, or combination of these guys would/can energize this offense at key moments?

Rather it is with the veterans, youth movement, or combination there of. Here is hoping the GRIZ find their game, and consistency come conference play, and we are dancing come March. GO GRIZ!
 
temp said:
Obviously without seeing the day to day workings of the team we are all just speculating. I too question some of these things but I am confident that no one wants to win more than Tinkle. It is his lively hood after all and I am sure he wants to keep his job. That being the case it gets hard for me to question him to much giving his record of success. I know the Wood hate on here is only rivaled by the Selvig hate but I still say this team has gotten more consistent with his increase in playing time. The freshmen show potential but who is to say that Wood isn't taking them to the proverbial woodshed everyday in practice. I really doubt Tinkle is saying to himself, boy that Kevin is a hell of an athlete and is beating Jordan in practice but I am going to play Wood just because.

Citay I am with you on the red-shirting. I wish Henderson and Gregory would have red-shirted or been asked to, whatever the case may have been. Your right, a 5th year SR is going to be better than almost any freshmen we get, unless of course the next John Wall decides Missoula is the place for him. Damn UK,KU or Duke.

Another thing to consider is off the court issues. These guys are students first. We would never know if they have grade issues or a propensity to skip class. One would think not all of them do but it would not be a shocker to learn that was something one or two of them struggles with.

Game time is really just a small part of a players development. Remember that they play against other D1 kids every single day. They learn from a really good coaching staff every single day. To say that they are not being developed for the future seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Lastly, There is an inherent flaw in this thinking. What if we did play this group of freshman and they turn into studs. What do we do with the freshmen when these guys are upperclassmen. Do we tell them now that they are SRs they have to sit so the younger guys can play?

Maybe I am just an optimist or cheerleader or kool-aid drinker but I think we are rounding into shape and we are a couple buckets in those close losses away from sitting here talking about what a stellar job Tinkle is doing this year.
Click to expand...
Just curious...at what point in your view, does honest criticism and a desire to see a better performance begin to be "hate"? I hear that term "hater" a lot these days and it says more about you than anything else, which is sad because you make good points but it is offset by your describing others as "haters"......
 
The truth is that none of us has a reliable, truthful relationship with a player or a coach so that we can adequately discern what is “real.” As a result, our speculation is made from “the outside looking in.” With that in mind, transparency between coaches and players is the most important factor. If a player does not have the skills to play, he should be told, red shirted, and coached with his weaknesses in mind so that he can improve and contribute in a meaningful way in games the following year. A true, red shirted competitor will always give his best at practice, because he clearly understands what he needs to do now if he eventually wants to play.

If a player is not ready to play at the college level, he is not ready to play. He should be told. One’s freshman year can never be replaced. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. Hopefully, respect for a limited amount of college playing time coupled with a clear vision about what is best for the team and the player will be used before the decision is made by whoever it is that makes that decision. If not, the freshmen lose one of their priceless years of basketball (never to be regained), the coveted basketball program acquires a few, undeveloped, frustrated, freshman cheerleaders, and we are left to contemplate on egriz the method behind the madness.

If the freshmen and the coaches have an understanding, and we base our conclusions on what has already transpired, the majority of their development and training will continue to take place during practice which could have happened without burning a year’s worth of valuable time. Time will tell the story, if there is one to be told, as the season unfolds.
 
BlizzGrizz said:
The truth is that none of us has a reliable, truthful relationship with a player or a coach so that we can adequately discern what is “real.” As a result, our speculation is made from “the outside looking in.” With that in mind, transparency between coaches and players is the most important factor. If a player does not have the skills to play, he should be told, red shirted, and coached with his weaknesses in mind so that he can improve and contribute in a meaningful way in games the following year. A true, red shirted competitor will always give his best at practice, because he clearly understands what he needs to do now if he eventually wants to play.

If a player is not ready to play at the college level, he is not ready to play. He should be told. One’s freshman year can never be replaced. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. Hopefully, respect for a limited amount of college playing time coupled with a clear vision about what is best for the team and the player will be used before the decision is made by whoever it is that makes that decision. If not, the freshmen lose one of their priceless years of basketball (never to be regained), the coveted basketball program acquires a few, undeveloped, frustrated, freshman cheerleaders, and we are left to contemplate on egriz the method behind the madness.



If the freshmen and the coaches have an understanding, and we base our conclusions on what has already transpired, the majority of their development and training will continue to take place during practice which could have happened without burning a year’s worth of valuable time. Time will tell the story, if there is one to be told, as the season unfolds.
Click to expand...

well said.
 
GrizLA said:
temp said:
Obviously without seeing the day to day workings of the team we are all just speculating. I too question some of these things but I am confident that no one wants to win more than Tinkle. It is his lively hood after all and I am sure he wants to keep his job. That being the case it gets hard for me to question him to much giving his record of success. I know the Wood hate on here is only rivaled by the Selvig hate but I still say this team has gotten more consistent with his increase in playing time. The freshmen show potential but who is to say that Wood isn't taking them to the proverbial woodshed everyday in practice. I really doubt Tinkle is saying to himself, boy that Kevin is a hell of an athlete and is beating Jordan in practice but I am going to play Wood just because.

Citay I am with you on the red-shirting. I wish Henderson and Gregory would have red-shirted or been asked to, whatever the case may have been. Your right, a 5th year SR is going to be better than almost any freshmen we get, unless of course the next John Wall decides Missoula is the place for him. Damn UK,KU or Duke.

Another thing to consider is off the court issues. These guys are students first. We would never know if they have grade issues or a propensity to skip class. One would think not all of them do but it would not be a shocker to learn that was something one or two of them struggles with.

Game time is really just a small part of a players development. Remember that they play against other D1 kids every single day. They learn from a really good coaching staff every single day. To say that they are not being developed for the future seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Lastly, There is an inherent flaw in this thinking. What if we did play this group of freshman and they turn into studs. What do we do with the freshmen when these guys are upperclassmen. Do we tell them now that they are SRs they have to sit so the younger guys can play?

Maybe I am just an optimist or cheerleader or kool-aid drinker but I think we are rounding into shape and we are a couple buckets in those close losses away from sitting here talking about what a stellar job Tinkle is doing this year.
Click to expand...
Just curious...at what point in your view, does honest criticism and a desire to see a better performance begin to be "hate"? I hear that term "hater" a lot these days and it says more about you than anything else, which is sad because you make good points but it is offset by your describing others as "haters"......
Click to expand...
Thats a fair question to ask. I assume you or anyone else does not actually hate Wood or Selvig in the old, literal form of the word. Not sure why you would beings you don't know them personally and it's doubtful they have wronged you or your family. I of course was refering to the new slang version meaning: one who brings another down. I am sorry if you took that literal and had an undo hardship from being called a "hater" (which I never called you by the way)

*Note to all posters* Please in the future stop using the words "hate" and "hater" You need to find other non-slang words to describe something. In lieu of calling someone a "Selvig hater" please call them a "Selvig honest criticizer desiring to see a better preformance -er". Please do this as to not offend grizLA or any others who may take offense to your phrasing. Thank you.
 
MTgrizrule: I think we are on the same page with Reader. That is the one I would have a tough time explaining away. I am really starting to lean towards an off the court issue being the problem because on the court it seems like he is doing a good job on both ends of the floor and it is getting harder to understand why he is not playing more. We seem to be missing BQ more than I thought we would and Reader looks like he could be the guy to help alleviate some of those issues.
 
temp said:
GrizLA said:
temp said:
Obviously without seeing the day to day workings of the team we are all just speculating. I too question some of these things but I am confident that no one wants to win more than Tinkle. It is his lively hood after all and I am sure he wants to keep his job. That being the case it gets hard for me to question him to much giving his record of success. I know the Wood hate on here is only rivaled by the Selvig hate but I still say this team has gotten more consistent with his increase in playing time. The freshmen show potential but who is to say that Wood isn't taking them to the proverbial woodshed everyday in practice. I really doubt Tinkle is saying to himself, boy that Kevin is a hell of an athlete and is beating Jordan in practice but I am going to play Wood just because.

Citay I am with you on the red-shirting. I wish Henderson and Gregory would have red-shirted or been asked to, whatever the case may have been. Your right, a 5th year SR is going to be better than almost any freshmen we get, unless of course the next John Wall decides Missoula is the place for him. Damn UK,KU or Duke.

Another thing to consider is off the court issues. These guys are students first. We would never know if they have grade issues or a propensity to skip class. One would think not all of them do but it would not be a shocker to learn that was something one or two of them struggles with.

Game time is really just a small part of a players development. Remember that they play against other D1 kids every single day. They learn from a really good coaching staff every single day. To say that they are not being developed for the future seems to be a bit of a stretch.

Lastly, There is an inherent flaw in this thinking. What if we did play this group of freshman and they turn into studs. What do we do with the freshmen when these guys are upperclassmen. Do we tell them now that they are SRs they have to sit so the younger guys can play?

Maybe I am just an optimist or cheerleader or kool-aid drinker but I think we are rounding into shape and we are a couple buckets in those close losses away from sitting here talking about what a stellar job Tinkle is doing this year.
Click to expand...
Just curious...at what point in your view, does honest criticism and a desire to see a better performance begin to be "hate"? I hear that term "hater" a lot these days and it says more about you than anything else, which is sad because you make good points but it is offset by your describing others as "haters"......
Click to expand...
Thats a fair question to ask. I assume you or anyone else does not actually hate Wood or Selvig in the old, literal form of the word. Not sure why you would beings you don't know them personally and it's doubtful they have wronged you or your family. I of course was refering to the new slang version meaning: one who brings another down. I am sorry if you took that literal and had an undo hardship from being called a "hater" (which I never called you by the way)

*Note to all posters* Please in the future stop using the words "hate" and "hater" You need to find other non-slang words to describe something. In lieu of calling someone a "Selvig hater" please call them a "Selvig honest criticizer desiring to see a better preformance -er". Please do this as to not offend grizLA or any others who may take offense to your phrasing. Thank you.
Click to expand...
That's a start...end the hate....We are all Griz fans and supporters. We all want UM to put their best efforts and talents forward. Sorry you cannot see that. Using "hate" is very hateful...the U gives you a foundation upon which to grow...that is why mopst of us support it so strongly.
 
I've been pretty quiet on this subject but when I watched the early intrasquad scrimmages I thought the new kids more than held their own with the vets, especially since they hadn't been in the system.
Does anybody have any reports on Henderson's development or how he practices? I've been high on the kid since the scrimmages where he frustrated the veterans on D, beat them off the dribble and had a great looking shot. Since he wasn't the only one I'm a bit surprised the team looks like a clone of last year, less BQ.
I'm heading over...go Griz.
BTW....I love the way Tinkle has managed to keep his kids in line!
 
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