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Dane Oliver Named Sentinel Head Coach

If enrollment is the reason the Missoula schools struggle, why does Capital with less than 100 more kids than Hellgate have 11 state titles, and several of those years Missoula schools did have larger enrollments (Capital currently has an abnormally large sophomore class), why does CMR have some many titles and middle of the road enrollment? Why do the largest Schools West (3 Titles) Bozeman (1 Title) Flathead (zero titles before glacier arrived) and Helena High (no titles) lack the same amount? Simply it comes down to culture and expectations the students place upon themselves. Capital has won their titles with 5 different head coaches (current coach has 4 titles and is a Big Sky grad) and CMR has created their beast with Jack Johnson. Simply, it comes down to hard work and students/community taking ownership of the program. Low Enrollment is a lousy excuse, maybe that is why Missoula schools are lousy, EXCUSES!!!
 
Obviously enrollment can play a role. I don't think it plays as much of role as some would suggest. I have heard people talk of Butte Central recruiting athletes. From where? Butte enrollment is not that high that they are really taking so many decent athletes. I think you need to look no further than Fairfield Montana. Boys and Girls basketball programs are a mainstay at the state tournament. Their football program has developed a "culture" of success. You can do it with smaller enrollment. Missoula high school football will be an also ran with an occasional breakthrough year until the culture changes. Programs don't start in 9th grade. Until they have competitive middle school programs that act as feeder schools to the high schools it will not happen. At CMR, Jack Johnson has his fingerprints all over the high school program and the North Middle School program. Those kids are not "bored" with running a similar program all the way through school. I know they would much rather win with what they know than lose with a new program every year.
 
Cross your fingers. The main push in Missoula (Apostle) is so happy with how things are going in Missoula, he is up for another job in Bellevue. REALLY hoping he gets it.
 
WaGriz4life said:
Unbelievable that you think open enrollment is a good thing. Doesn't Missoula have the highest high school dropout rate in the state? So your theory that open enrollment is keeping kids in school is bogus. It teaches kids that if something gets hard, you can just quit and go to the other school. Billings has strict school districts but still allows some wiggle room for a kid to go to another public school, for example if your parent is a teacher or coach at another school. Open enrollment builds no sense of community or pride in your school.

I also imagine that the parents of Missoula have a strangle hold on the administrators so that if a coach is "too tough" on their kids it will quickly get resolved and it's back to hugs and orange slices. If two Missoula schools combined they would be the biggest high school in the state and they still wouldnt be competing for state titles. But they would finally be able to win a few games outside Missoula.
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No Missoula does not have the highest drop out rate in the state. In fact Missoula is lower than the state average, and the drop out rate has been going down since the introduction of Graduation Matters.

HiSchlDropOut10.gif
By the way, Missoula's program is going statewide, so Graduation Matters, coming soon to a school district near you. And yes you are correct, there is less loyalty to your high school. Hopefully you will find out, as you get older, that there are few things less pathetic in an adult than high school loyalty. I guess I just don't believe he neighborhood you live in should determine what school you have to attend, that it is more important to find the best fit for the kid.

Open enrollment and kids changing schools is not why Missoula athletics suck - it might lead to one particular program being terrible, but not the whole city. As far as the life lesson that teaches, hopefully they will learn that if the place they work is terrible, go get a better job for example. Hopefully kids learn you don't have to accept the incompetence just because of where you live. Look for something better.

As far as the parents comment, it is interesting because I have long heard that the problem at Sentinel is parent interference. But what I can't figure out is which parents they are, and what the parents are doing to hamstring the administrators and coaches? It is not like there has been a lot of turnover at Sentinel until this year, and still I don't know that any of the coaches or administrators were forced out. I think if you look at the football coaching staff at Sentinel you will see 2 kinds of coaches - recently graduated UM players, and parents. My involvement with Sentinel athletics is to buy things from the athletes raising money and watching a few games, so maybe someone can give some examples of how the parents have hamstrung athletics?
 
Grizbeer said:
WaGriz4life said:
Unbelievable that you think open enrollment is a good thing. Doesn't Missoula have the highest high school dropout rate in the state? So your theory that open enrollment is keeping kids in school is bogus. It teaches kids that if something gets hard, you can just quit and go to the other school. Billings has strict school districts but still allows some wiggle room for a kid to go to another public school, for example if your parent is a teacher or coach at another school. Open enrollment builds no sense of community or pride in your school.

I also imagine that the parents of Missoula have a strangle hold on the administrators so that if a coach is "too tough" on their kids it will quickly get resolved and it's back to hugs and orange slices. If two Missoula schools combined they would be the biggest high school in the state and they still wouldnt be competing for state titles. But they would finally be able to win a few games outside Missoula.
Click to expand...
No Missoula does not have the highest drop out rate in the state. In fact Missoula is lower than the state average, and the drop out rate has been going down since the introduction of Graduation Matters.

HiSchlDropOut10.gif
By the way, Missoula's program is going statewide, so Graduation Matters, coming soon to a school district near you. And yes you are correct, there is less loyalty to your high school. Hopefully you will find out, as you get older, that there are few things less pathetic in an adult than high school loyalty. I guess I just don't believe he neighborhood you live in should determine what school you have to attend, that it is more important to find the best fit for the kid.

Open enrollment and kids changing schools is not why Missoula athletics suck - it might lead to one particular program being terrible, but not the whole city. As far as the life lesson that teaches, hopefully they will learn that if the place they work is terrible, go get a better job for example. Hopefully kids learn you don't have to accept the incompetence just because of where you live. Look for something better.

As far as the parents comment, it is interesting because I have long heard that the problem at Sentinel is parent interference. But what I can't figure out is which parents they are, and what the parents are doing to hamstring the administrators and coaches? It is not like there has been a lot of turnover at Sentinel until this year, and still I don't know that any of the coaches or administrators were forced out. I think if you look at the football coaching staff at Sentinel you will see 2 kinds of coaches - recently graduated UM players, and parents. My involvement with Sentinel athletics is to buy things from the athletes raising money and watching a few games, so maybe someone can give some examples of how the parents have hamstrung athletics?
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As a graduate of Big Sky, I have heard that rumor about Sentinel numerous times over the past thirty years. We just choose to perpetuate myths that allow us to wake up in the morning. As a football coach I know full well the problems that are at the root of Sentinels, Hellgates and Big Sky's struggles over the past twenty years have so little to do with attendance numbers and drop out rates. But I feel no desire to repeat myself again as to my perspective on the matter.
 
The problem is Little Grizzly football doesn't teach Missoula players a core portion of the program they will be running in High School. They come in cold as freshman and then only play other weak Missoula schools their entire freshman year. By the time sophomore year rolls around Missoula kids are about three years behind the power schools in the state. In addition, the culture is soft at all the Missoula schools and "inclusive". How wonderful! Weakness breeds weakness is all I have to say having watched it for 15 years now up close.
 
Some miscellaneous comments.

There is no way that the low enrollment numbers, combined with strong interest in soccer and sometimes golf (which used to be a spring sport), are not a major factor in the lack of success of the MIssoula AA schools. Of course, there are other factors.

The Missoula AA schools now have a frosh schedule that involves a league with the other Missoula schools, including Loyola, and the smaller schools outside of Missoula. One Kalispell school also played Sentinel last fall. I don't know if Kalispell played Hellgate and Big Sky. Very weak schedule, even with some of the smaller schools using their JV team or some older players.

The Missoula schools have only 1 frosh team. I don't know what other AA schools are doing these days, but it's a negative to have only 1 team, as not enough kids get playing time.

I still don't get the need to run the same high school system at a young age. Kids can learn a system in a year or two. That doesn't mean that LIttle Griz shouldn't have more in their offensive and defensive schemes.

At Sentinel, I don't think the frosh team has been integrated enough with the upper level teams. For example, the frosh defensive system hasn't even used all of the same terminology as the varsity. This will presumably be rectified this fall.

At Sentinel, it has taken years to get over the losing attitude and losing tradition. The kids didn't even thing they could win. The younger Griz coaches had alot to do with showing the kids that they could win and needed to have more desire and confidence to win.

Soft? Perhaps. At least in comparison to some of the top programs. However, it also takes talent. The Missoula guys who have played for the Griz certainly weren't soft.

I have had two kids playing sports at Sentinel in the past 5 years, including football, and one is still playing sports at Sentinel. I have had 5 kids play high school sports, including 3 in football.
 
I'm not saying the current or last coaching staff wasn't good at Sentinel. What I am saying is Missoula's system clearly doesn't work. Twenty years ago Sentinel was one of the top four programs in the state every year. Big Sky played for state titles several times. Now the "city championship" is the big trophy for Missoula schools. Helena learns a basic version of their offense and defense starting in 5th grade! Kids don't learn without repetition and actual results show that over the last twenty years. We have to change the system Jack or we will never compete. I had three kids play at Sentinel and watched 1 win in three of those years. That is not just soccer that causes that.
 
crackgina said:
I'm not saying the current or last coaching staff wasn't good at Sentinel. What I am saying is Missoula's system clearly doesn't work. Twenty years ago Sentinel was one of the top four programs in the state every year. Big Sky played for state titles several times. Now the "city championship" is the big trophy for Missoula schools. Helena learns a basic version of their offense and defense starting in 5th grade! Kids don't learn without repetition and actual results show that over the last twenty years. We have to change the system Jack or we will never compete. I had three kids play at Sentinel and watched 1 win in three of those years. That is not just soccer that causes that.
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The system doesn't work, because there is no expectation for it to work. I was a part of those Big Sky teams in the early 90's and what I can tell you it the was the two classes (94 and 95) that drove that ship. I love Eck, greatly respected the man, he had a veritable cornucopia of talent to deal with in those two classes and he made the most out of it.

After that, Eck and the rest of Missoula failed to build out off the excitement from the 1994 state title game. Missoula Big Sky and Hellgate were horrid the next year and Sentinel continued its run of futility for nearly the next decade.

From a coaching standpoint, Eck was and is the standard bearer of missoula football and at that point his record was merely average. Dohn was way below five hundred and Joseph is considered to be a success at Sentinel by winning a quarter of his games. That is just absurd by any measurement.
 
Do Missoula schools really only have one frosh team per school now? Is that because of #'s, or was it done on purpose?
 
Hellgate, for whatever reason, doesn't get the numbers of players to develop enough good players and compete. Besides having a low enrollment, how do you want to explain the low numbers and lack of success?

I'll tell you what. Combine Sentinel and Big Sky, to an enrollment of say 1900, and you would see significantly improved success. Then cut West and Bozeman's enrollment to 1100, and their levels of success would drop significantly.
 
I think there is a high school football team from Missoula that consistently makes the playoffs. How about those Rams.
 
bcalum said:
I think there is a high school football team from Missoula that consistently makes the playoffs. How about those Rams.
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And isn't there enrollment on the low end for class B? It is a culture created and expected in the private schools. It is also created and expected in places all over the state in schools big and small. If your enrollment is higher, you certainly have a bigger pool of candidates to fill your needs. But are you telling me that a school of 1100 (assuming half are male), so 550 cant field a competitive football team almost every year if they have the right system and culture in place? CMR has "open gym". It is not mandatory, but it is. They list their depth chart on the wall at the beginning of summer. If you miss a workout, your name falls on the depth chart. It is expected. Even a down year at CMR usually means they are at least .500.
 
If Soccer is killing football in Msla then why was last years Hellgate soccer championship the first one in a decade? Helena Capital and Billings West have 4 of the last 5 soccer championships, last i looked they do ok in football?
 
jagur1 said:
If Soccer is killing football in Msla then why was last years Hellgate soccer championship the first one in a decade? Helena Capital and Billings West have 4 of the last 5 soccer championships, last i looked they do ok in football?
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Soccer may not be "killing" football in Missoula, but it's a factor. Soccer is cutting kids and football coaches are hoping the kids who are cut will turn out for football, just so they can field freshman, sophomore or JV teams. And the kids who choose soccer over football would be receivers, running backs and quarterbacks, i.e., the skill players. I'm not saying all of them would be great football players, but I guarantee you that some of them would be great football players.

Billings West has a good soccer program because of their enrollment and their club soccer programs. Billings also has very good soccer coaches and facilities. By comparison, Missoula's soccer facilities are a joke.

Capital has never had much of a soccer program. Helena High has traditionally been the soccer power in that town. And Helena has a nice soccer complex as well.
 
AllWeatherFan said:
Billings West has a good soccer program because of their enrollment and their club soccer programs. Billings also has very good soccer coaches and facilities. By comparison, Missoula's soccer facilities are a joke.

Capital has never had much of a soccer program. Helena High has traditionally been the soccer power in that town. And Helena has a nice soccer complex as well.
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Helena Capital and Billings West both have 2 state titles in Boys soccer.

BOYS
Flathead (Kalispell) – 5
Missoula Sentinel – 4
Helena – 4
Helena Capital – 2
Billings Senior – 2
Billings West – 2
Bozeman – 1
Missoula Hellgate – 1

GIRLS
Helena Capital – 8
Bozeman – 6
Missoula Big Sky – 2
Billings West – 2
Flathead (Kalispell) – 1
Helena – 1
Billings Senior – 1
Click to expand...

http://www.mhsa.org/Soccer/HistoryofSoccer.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
wbtfg said:
AllWeatherFan said:
Billings West has a good soccer program because of their enrollment and their club soccer programs. Billings also has very good soccer coaches and facilities. By comparison, Missoula's soccer facilities are a joke.

Capital has never had much of a soccer program. Helena High has traditionally been the soccer power in that town. And Helena has a nice soccer complex as well.
Click to expand...

Helena Capital and Billings West both have 2 state titles in Boys soccer.

BOYS
Flathead (Kalispell) – 5
Missoula Sentinel – 4
Helena – 4
Helena Capital – 2
Billings Senior – 2
Billings West – 2
Bozeman – 1
Missoula Hellgate – 1

GIRLS
Helena Capital – 8
Bozeman – 6
Missoula Big Sky – 2
Billings West – 2
Flathead (Kalispell) – 1
Helena – 1
Billings Senior – 1
Click to expand...

http://www.mhsa.org/Soccer/HistoryofSoccer.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click to expand...

Like I said 4 out of the last five, Misla hadn't won a title in over a decade until Helgate last year.

From what I've noticed Soccer gets very few of the top tier athletic kids in Billings. The ones they get go out for football in the 5th, and maybe 6th grade decide they don't like contact and then Drink the Soccer kool aid.
 
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