Dane Oliver Named Sentinel Head Coach

[Grizbeer]

I think Griz-Fan 24 has this pretty much nailed. Another thing to consider about Middle schools in Missoula is that they are not really tied to the high school. Porter contains a mix of Big Sky and Sentinel kids, Washington is a mix of Sentinel and Hellgate kids. Meadow Hill and (now) Lolo kids go to Sentinel, and Bonner and Clinton got to Hellgate, while I believe Desmet and Hellgate Elementary go to Big Sky, but not 100% sure on that. And kids can choose whatever High School they want.

The main problem with Missoula High School football has to be solved a the high school level by building programs, from the administration on down. To start there has to be a commitment to winning.

 

[Geddes]

Obviously there is no magic formula, and it takes actual work to build a program. I still stand behind the idea that having kids play together from the moment they begin organized football would be a major foundational block in changing the culture.

 

[PlayerRep]

If a school doubles its enrollment, it's also going to improve it's quality of players 1 - 50. That much increased enrollment increases the number of good athletes in the school, and the pool of athletic kids who can play fall sports (football, soccer, golf).

Trying to argue that why don't big schools always win, and how can some small schools win occasionally, doesn't address the main point that drastically lower enrollment significantly impacts the talent pool for football. Combine Big Sky with Sentinel, and send the special needs kids to another school (just so the combined enrollment would be close to the top current AA school), and I guarantee you that the combined school would be winning football games. Cut Billings West and Bozeman in half, and they wouldn't be the football and basketball powers that they have been in recent years.

Here are the numbers. Note that Sentinel has a large number of special needs kids (almost 200?), which probably doesn't help much with football talent pool.

"Class AA — Billings West 1,958; Bozeman 1,844; Billings Senior 1,665; Helena High 1,603; Great Falls High 1,573; Billings Skyview 1,543; Great Falls C.M. Russell 1,515; Kalispell Flathead 1,483; Helena Capital 1,373; Butte High 1,300; Missoula Hellgate 1,293; Kalispell Glacier 1,268; Missoula Sentinel 1,208; Missoula Big Sky 1,054."

 

[Grizfan-24]

Obviously there is no magic formula, and it takes actual work to build a program. I still stand behind the idea that having kids play together from the moment they begin organized football would be a major foundational block in changing the culture.

Geddes I agree. I think it helps but it would take some communication between all three high school coachs and some cohersion of either Hermes or an authortarian creation of a new league. Either way I am not sure that it wouldn't intially create more problems that the problems it would fix.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

First of all, congratulations to Dane Oliver, which is the point of this thread. (Maybe a new thread on "High School Football in Missoula and Montana" could be created to include the tangential discussion, which is still interesting nonetheless.)

But I do want to add this comment.

Anybody who doesn't think soccer is having a negative impact on football in high school athletics is either asleep, completely ignorant or just not paying attention. Some of the fastest and best athletes are choosing soccer over football in the autumn. Go ahead, make all the soccer or soccer mom jokes you want. It's happening.

And yes, Player is right. Enrollment is a factor.

 

['68griz]

I fully agree with your comments about both soccer and attendance. I love football dearly, but I refuse to bitch about the kids who choose soccer over football -- if that's their sport of choice, then I support them and encourage them to excel. Why is it a bad thing that kids choose one sport over another?

 

[Geddes]

Jokes aside, there is no way one can say that soccer has not had an effect on football.

 

[AllWeatherFan]

...Hermes' ridiculous league.

Watching those numbskulls out there with their headsets and matching shirts reinforces my belief that some people take this stuff way too seriously. It's comical.

Sports are supposed to be fun and enjoyable for kids, not some vehicle for parents still chasing their lost dreams. Even pro athletes will tell you that.

 

[grizpack]

AWF has a great point about soccer too. Go watch a Sentinel / Big Sky / Hellgate soccer game, and I promise you that you will see 4-7 kids who would be starters in football.

And as much as I do believe enrollment does play a role, I think there is a bigger problem in Missoula High Schools. There is no sense of community for the schools. There is basically open enrollment at each school. Having problem with a teacher who is too hard, or a coach that is too hard. NO PROBLEM!! Enroll at one of the other schools tomorrow. That one doesn't work out, go to the third. If both of those suck, come back to your original school.

In my neighborhood, there are kids that go to the other 2 high schools (out of our "district") within 3 houses either way. It is like that all over town. I think the school with the least amount of that is Hellgate, as all of the small communities tend to stay with Hellgate (East Missoula, Clinton, Milltown, etc.).

Contrast that with a town like Great Falls which has (or used to have) a hard boundary. Kids played for their school and disliked the other one.

And it is going to get WAY worse in the next couple of years with the "academies" coming into the Missoula schools. That is going to be a disaster. Apostle has to go.

 

[Grizbeer]

AWF has a great point about soccer too. Go watch a Sentinel / Big Sky / Hellgate soccer game, and I promise you that you will see 4-7 kids who would be starters in football.

And as much as I do believe enrollment does play a role, I think there is a bigger problem in Missoula High Schools. There is no sense of community for the schools. There is basically open enrollment at each school. Having problem with a teacher who is too hard, or a coach that is too hard. NO PROBLEM!! Enroll at one of the other schools tomorrow. That one doesn't work out, go to the third. If both of those suck, come back to your original school.

In my neighborhood, there are kids that go to the other 2 high schools (out of our "district") within 3 houses either way. It is like that all over town. I think the school with the least amount of that is Hellgate, as all of the small communities tend to stay with Hellgate (East Missoula, Clinton, Milltown, etc.).

Contrast that with a town like Great Falls which has (or used to have) a hard boundary. Kids played for their school and disliked the other one.

And it is going to get WAY worse in the next couple of years with the "academies" coming into the Missoula schools. That is going to be a disaster. Apostle has to go.

RE soccer, I don't know about Hellgate or Big Sky, but 1/2 or more of the kids playing Sentinel Soccer started out playing football. They quit football, and soccer was there, soccer didn't draw them away.

The open door policy certainly complicates athletics, but overall it is much healthier for the kids and community. Many of the kids that now transfer would have just dropped out before. I grew up in the area when you Sentinel kids hated Hellgate, and vice versa. Many people I know who grew up in that era still harbor that hate, which is really silly when you think about it. Kids today don't have that same hate, and they will be better and more productive citizens because of it.

With respect to athletics, Schools have to adjust to this, and provide a reason for kids to go there, just as they do with academics. I think Cherie Roberts addressed this issue best in her letter to the editor.

The academies may eventually be the key to reducing the AA teams in Missoula. If the schools eventually progress to where they revert to Missoula County High School, and you attend either the Sentinel Academy, Hellgate Academy, or Big Sky Academy, then they could classify themselves as a single high school with multiple campuses, and 1 (or possible 2) varsity teams. Missoula will never reduce the physical number of high schools for political (not enrollment or financial) reasons, so this might be the path to get there.

 

[Elk Slayer]

the main point that drastically lower enrollment significantly impacts the talent pool for football.

And yes, Player is right. Enrollment is a factor.

I know this is about Missoula and AA football, but Butte Central pretty much throws the enrollment argument in the trash... They have a fraction of the enrollment of the other A schools and compete year after year.

 

[BDizzle]

the main point that drastically lower enrollment significantly impacts the talent pool for football.

And yes, Player is right. Enrollment is a factor.

I know this is about Missoula and AA football, but Butte Central pretty much throws the enrollment argument in the trash... They have a fraction of the enrollment of the other A schools and compete year after year.

Tough to compare a public school to a private school. Billings Central is always good in basketball but they "recruit" a bit.

 

[Elk Slayer]

Tough to compare a public school to a private school. Billings Central is always good in basketball but they "recruit" a bit.

I agree. However, to further the point, Billlings Central has 325+ students and Butte Central has 150 students. Both private schools in class A and is usually a competitve rivalry. Which would show enrollment isn't much of a factor, if any. Comparing private class A schools...

 

[ilovethecats]

i might be way off here but it seems like soccer is becoming much more popular mainly because of the dangers of football. bear with me. i know at my kids school only the 5th graders are allowed to play football! and even then it is with major supervision. but soccer is encouraged and easily the most popular with the kids. so many times by the time they reach an age where they are allowed to play in school....soccer has already taken over.

i know growing up i hated soccer. just never got it. and wouldn't you know it....of course that's what my kids love to do! so while i'd love to be a dad of a football player or hoops player....i see a lot of soccer in my future.

wonder if this is the case in other elementary schools around the state?

 

[PlayerRep]

the main point that drastically lower enrollment significantly impacts the talent pool for football.

And yes, Player is right. Enrollment is a factor.

I know this is about Missoula and AA football, but Butte Central pretty much throws the enrollment argument in the trash... They have a fraction of the enrollment of the other A schools and compete year after year.

Tough to compare a public school to a private school. Billings Central is always good in basketball but they "recruit" a bit.

Butte Central and other catholic schools recruit players. It's not a good comparison. Also, as I said before, pointing out that some small schools have done well and some big schools don't do well, doesn't refute that argument that the Missoula schools would be much better if their enrollments were comparable to Billings West and Bozeman.

 

[tnt]

i might be way off here but it seems like soccer is becoming much more popular mainly because of the dangers of football. bear with me. i know at my kids school only the 5th graders are allowed to play football! and even then it is with major supervision. but soccer is encouraged and easily the most popular with the kids. so many times by the time they reach an age where they are allowed to play in school....soccer has already taken over.

i know growing up i hated soccer. just never got it. and wouldn't you know it....of course that's what my kids love to do! so while i'd love to be a dad of a football player or hoops player....i see a lot of soccer in my future.

wonder if this is the case in other elementary schools around the state?

Certainly in other states if not here, but I would suggest another factor. Football isn't King many places anymore because of the growth of girls sports there is also a queen. Frankly in a family with some of each soccer takes over because you don't have kid going opposite directions (quite so much) AND its a whole lot easier for the whole family to get involved. There are a few other "social" reasons too but not ones easily understood by football fans..... But suffice it say football is looked upon by peer groups as being over charged testosterone heavy neanderthals. But the hey I was a kid when we all carried our baseball mitts on the handle bars of our bike because you never knew when a game might break out and THAT was in Butte.....

 

[MissoulaMarinerFan]

The biggest problem with the lack of success of Missoula AA schools is their very small enrollments, compared to other AA schools and powers. Of course, there are some other problems too, as has been pointed out, but this is the biggest one.

The kids are soft because they are raised that way. It has nothing to do with enrollment, they have plenty of bodies to choose from its just that most of the kids in Missoula pop out of the womb with no chance in life unless its handed to them by their parents.

Funny. To me this seems way more prevalent in the Bozeman area than Missoula...maybe not necessarily with sports, but with material things, definitely.

 

[WaGriz4life]

AWF has a great point about soccer too. Go watch a Sentinel / Big Sky / Hellgate soccer game, and I promise you that you will see 4-7 kids who would be starters in football.

And as much as I do believe enrollment does play a role, I think there is a bigger problem in Missoula High Schools. There is no sense of community for the schools. There is basically open enrollment at each school. Having problem with a teacher who is too hard, or a coach that is too hard. NO PROBLEM!! Enroll at one of the other schools tomorrow. That one doesn't work out, go to the third. If both of those suck, come back to your original school.

In my neighborhood, there are kids that go to the other 2 high schools (out of our "district") within 3 houses either way. It is like that all over town. I think the school with the least amount of that is Hellgate, as all of the small communities tend to stay with Hellgate (East Missoula, Clinton, Milltown, etc.).

Contrast that with a town like Great Falls which has (or used to have) a hard boundary. Kids played for
their school and disliked the other one.

And it is going to get WAY worse in the next couple of years with the "academies" coming into the Missoula schools. That is going to be a disaster. Apostle has to go.

RE soccer, I don't know about Hellgate or Big Sky, but 1/2 or more of the kids playing Sentinel Soccer started out playing football. They quit football, and soccer was there, soccer didn't draw them away.

The open door policy certainly complicates athletics, but overall it is much healthier for the kids and community. Many of the kids that now transfer would have just dropped out before. I grew up in the area when you Sentinel kids hated Hellgate, and vice versa. Many people I know who grew up in that era still harbor that hate, which is really silly when you think about it. Kids today don't have that same hate, and
they will be better and more productive citizens because of it.

With respect to athletics, Schools have to adjust to this, and provide a reason for kids to go there, just as they do with academics. I think Cherie Roberts addressed this issue best in her letter to the editor.

The academies may eventually be the key to reducing the AA teams in Missoula. If the schools eventually progress to where they revert to Missoula County High School, and you attend either the Sentinel Academy, Hellgate Academy, or Big Sky Academy, then they could classify themselves as a single high school with multiple campuses, and 1 (or possible 2) varsity teams. Missoula will never reduce the physical number of high schools for political (not enrollment or financial) reasons, so this might be the path to get there.

Unbelievable that you think open enrollment is a good thing. Doesn't Missoula have the highest high school dropout rate in the state? So your theory that open enrollment is keeping kids in school is bogus. It teaches kids that if something gets hard, you can just quit and go to the other school. Billings has strict school districts but still allows some wiggle room for a kid to go to another public school, for example if your parent is a teacher or coach at another school. Open enrollment builds no sense of community or pride in your school.

I also imagine that the parents of Missoula have a strangle hold on the administrators so that if a coach is "too tough" on their kids it will quickly get resolved and it's back to hugs and orange slices. If two Missoula schools combined they would be the biggest high school in the state and they still wouldnt be competing for state titles. But they would finally be able to win a few games outside Missoula.

 

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Unbelievable that you think open enrollment is a good thing. Doesn't Missoula have the highest high school dropout rate in the state? So your theory that open enrollment is keeping kids in school is bogus. It teaches kids that if something gets hard, you can just quit and go to the other school. Billings has strict school districts but still allows some wiggle room for a kid to go to another public school, for example if your parent is a teacher or coach at another school. Open enrollment builds no sense of community or pride in your school.

I also imagine that the parents of Missoula have a strangle hold on the administrators so that if a coach is "too tough" on their kids it will quickly get resolved and it's back to hugs and orange slices. If two Missoula schools combined they would be the biggest high school in the state and they still wouldnt be competing for state titles. But they would finally be able to win a few games outside Missoula.

This

 

[grizindabox]

I heard that Growler was soft and that Grizzoola can confirm. Any opinion Grizzoola?