Whitney....

Honestly needs to have a reliable 3 point shot. Even if he even became a mid 30's % 3 pt shooter, he'd be averaging no less than 3 points per game more. Teams wouldn't be daring him to shoot it. That would so open up the paint.

Also, he needs to use his ability to break down defenses to create more open opportunities for teammates. I don't understand, how can a jr div 1player who's inconsistent to bad at 3, not improve progressively?

As is he's a solid player. Does he know, the GRIZ are serious contenders if he slightly improves in shooting? They're even better, if he learns to create open shots for others. Bannan has improved that part in his game.

I'm not sure, why Whitney hasn't improved his shot. However, it's getting to the point where tough love is needed. Improve it, or lose minutes! I'm sure Vazquez and or Brown would like more minutes.

I honestly feel, riding out growing pains with Brown would potentially be very beneficial to the team. I'd consider experimenting with Nap as a point forward. Yes, there's growing pains there too. Unfortunately, Whitney's shooting has been too much of a liability for too long.

Whitney, I'd love to eat crow later.
On the bright side we have truer pgs coming up.

I have said this 100x, Whitney is not a point guard. Not his fault he is being forced to be one. He just doesn’t have the passing instincts which seem to come naturally to good point guards. Some of which you can’t teach or coach. You can’t run pick and roll with him because the well coached teams just have his man take two backwards steps and go under the screen effectively eliminating the benefit of the pick because they know he won’t shoot and they would consider it a win if he does.

Even without being able to shoot, he would still be much more effective with a PG that could create scramble situations and could create for him. I think he is already elite at getting into the paint, but if he can’t get a shot off, nothing positive comes from it. Most point guards with his ability to get into the paint draw the help defender and dump off for an easy basket.

And regarding his shot, I don’t know if it is mental, lack of reps on his part or lack of development work from the staff. I have seen videos of Shaq and Ben Simmons making many, many free throws in a row, but it doesn’t translate to game situations (sort of like my drives at the range).

And finally, maybe he is just at his ceiling (which is still a player that should be at least Honorable Mention this year). You can make the argument considering the circumstances (first college game, on the road against a PAC-12 team with a 7 footer who was the 3rd pick in the draft and today widely considered to be a top 5 defender in the NBA, his 6’11 brother who splits time between the NBA and the G league and a number of athletic perimeter players) that his first game as a Griz was the best game of his career.

Once you hit the link below, if you scroll down a little, you can see his 3 years all together. His first year looks remarkably similar to this year. In my mind he is very good player forced to play a position that is not his strength which makes his weaknesses a lot more obvious.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brandon-whitney-1.html

Think ball is on the money. Doesn't have the playmaker's skill set. Within the limits of the game he has is very solid, but has to play out of his element. Unfortunately it's the best option we have given a backcourt stuffed with 2s.

As a fan I'd like to see what some of the young guys can do. Barring a blazing hot shooting night we can't beat Ewoo, the kittehs or Weebs which makes a 3 or 4 game conference tourney run very unlikely. Thus a higher seed is not very relevant and preparing for next year seems prudent.

It's seemed that most shooters who weren't developed at other programs lose their confidence and game ability with the Griz lately. Whitney shot 32% from 3 as a freshman and his shot seemed promising. Then 28% as a soph, and 24% as a junior with a knuckling, unnatural line drive.
I'm not sure what this coaching staff's approach to shooting is, if they put any importance on its development at all. Vazquez, who immediately appeared to have a pure stroke and was a promising sniper, clearly bottomed out with confidence last year in hard-to-watch fashion.
I don't know where this team would be if Moody, Thomas, and Martin didn't have their shooting developed elsewhere.
I completely agree that this team needs to allow Brown and Nap to grow on the court. Bannon is the only player in the rotation who can face up, create his own shot, and flex a defense. Unfortunately, he's also our best post up option and cannot carry the entire initiation load himself. For this reason, Brown's complete relegation to the bench after appearing to find a role and confidence as a bench initiator is so puzzling. But then again this staff sat likely our best player in Owens all of last season while force-feeding minutes to a Division II talent in Mack Anderson, so still expecting winning decision making is my own folly.
As much as people don't think Whitney is a true PG (and I can see that), how brutal was it seeing Moody trying to create in the final possessions against the Cats? Moody is an excellent catch-and-shoot player and serviceable secondary ball handler, but he painfully illustrated why we need Brown's skillset so badly.

Another point of concern in his and many others developments. What the heck is the strength coach doing? Vazquez and Anderson especially had decent ceilings if they improved athletically and put muscle on. Yet they never did. Martin and Thomas both have size but could use it as more lean muscle. Bannan is the only guy I’ve seen real progress in, and he’s a gym rat. Guys like Whitney, Anderson, and Vazquez have shown little to no improvement with years on campus.

I am not sure Brown is the answer at point guard. Last year in NAIA he had 97a/97 TOs. And in conference it was 50a/57 TOs. Seems unlikely this would improve jumping to the D-1 level. But if the rationale is giving the most athletic guard the ball to see what he can do, I would understand giving it a try.

Kind of mind boggling he didn’t get more than 3 minutes in the 30 point victory over ISU.

Brandon just needs to play his game. He’s best around the rim and with his mid-range jumper. Occasionally he can cast off from three to keep the defense honest. Yes, he’s a point guard. A very good one.

BigRock said:

It's seemed that most shooters who weren't developed at other programs lose their confidence and game ability with the Griz lately. Whitney shot 32% from 3 as a freshman and his shot seemed promising. Then 28% as a soph, and 24% as a junior with a knuckling, unnatural line drive.
I'm not sure what this coaching staff's approach to shooting is, if they put any importance on its development at all. Vazquez, who immediately appeared to have a pure stroke and was a promising sniper, clearly bottomed out with confidence last year in hard-to-watch fashion.
I don't know where this team would be if Moody, Thomas, and Martin didn't have their shooting developed elsewhere.
I completely agree that this team needs to allow Brown and Nap to grow on the court. Bannon is the only player in the rotation who can face up, create his own shot, and flex a defense. Unfortunately, he's also our best post up option and cannot carry the entire initiation load himself. For this reason, Brown's complete relegation to the bench after appearing to find a role and confidence as a bench initiator is so puzzling. But then again this staff sat likely our best player in Owens all of last season while force-feeding minutes to a Division II talent in Mack Anderson, so still expecting winning decision making is my own folly.
As much as people don't think Whitney is a true PG (and I can see that), how brutal was it seeing Moody trying to create in the final possessions against the Cats? Moody is an excellent catch-and-shoot player and serviceable secondary ball handler, but he painfully illustrated why we need Brown's skillset so badly.

Click to expand...

Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. He shot 31.1% as a Freshman. 28.1 as a Sophomore and 28% this year. He makes 61+% of his 2 point attempts, a number which has gone up each year.

AllWeatherFan said:

Brandon just needs to play his game. He’s best around the rim and with his mid-range jumper. Occasionally he can cast off from three to keep the defense honest. Yes, he’s a point guard. A very good one.

Click to expand...

+1 :thumb:

I think Whitney is fine. When he is the primary facilitator and playing down hill, the offense hums and he shoots a ton in rhythm. He's not as adept playing off ball catching the ball and shooting and I know from listening to others was a point on emphasis on his game this past summer.

Fundamentally his shot looks fine, the problem is developing a sense that he just needs to catch and shoot, which he did more as a Freshman. Because of how he plays to the basket, for the most part is what causes him the lift/arc issues. He's learned that if he plays left to right across the key, he can effectively get to the rim and protect his shot being limited in height as he is. He's got a lot of tools in that regard, but it doesn't allow him to get any of his mid range shots with lift with any elevation. He's shooting that mid range or the three as a last option, and mostly as a step back because he can't square his right shoulder to the basket to work up through his mechanic. So he loses all of his kinetic energy in his legs and most of his shots are done with his weight moving away from the basket, and most cases moving backwards.

I think TDC wants him to shoot those mid range balls more, but in games he still seems more inclined to take those two or three extra dribbles to break down the post player to get a lay up. He had several opportunities against MSU to stop 10 feet out in clear space in the key and shoot. He does when coming from the right, but if he's coming down hill from the left, he's not inclined to shoot either after a couple of dribbles (3 or top of the key) or when he gets clear of the primary defender (which he does most times). He used to use a bit of a cross over and pop, but when teams started funneling to the block, trailing him, they've eliminated that move a bit. He'd be better served curling occasionally and just flowing into a shot. He wouldn't likely end up short as much as he does and it would change how teams are defending him from the left side.

GrizBall said:

I have said this 100x, Whitney is not a point guard. Not his fault he is being forced to be one. He just doesn’t have the passing instincts which seem to come naturally to good point guards. Some of which you can’t teach or coach. You can’t run pick and roll with him because the well coached teams just have his man take two backwards steps and go under the screen effectively eliminating the benefit of the pick because they know he won’t shoot and they would consider it a win if he does.

Even without being able to shoot, he would still be much more effective with a PG that could create scramble situations and could create for him. I think he is already elite at getting into the paint, but if he can’t get a shot off, nothing positive comes from it. Most point guards with his ability to get into the paint draw the help defender and dump off for an easy basket.

And regarding his shot, I don’t know if it is mental, lack of reps on his part or lack of development work from the staff. I have seen videos of Shaq and Ben Simmons making many, many free throws in a row, but it doesn’t translate to game situations (sort of like my drives at the range).

And finally, maybe he is just at his ceiling (which is still a player that should be at least Honorable Mention this year). You can make the argument considering the circumstances (first college game, on the road against a PAC-12 team with a 7 footer who was the 3rd pick in the draft and today widely considered to be a top 5 defender in the NBA, his 6’11 brother who splits time between the NBA and the G league and a number of athletic perimeter players) that his first game as a Griz was the best game of his career.

Once you hit the link below, if you scroll down a little, you can see his 3 years all together. His first year looks remarkably similar to this year. In my mind he is very good player forced to play a position that is not his strength which makes his weaknesses a lot more obvious.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/brandon-whitney-1.html

Click to expand...

This often happens where a guard is labled a point guard not because of their game, but because they are short. I would much rather they be referred to as a combo guard. Also, what we call a PG in today's game is not the same as 30 years ago. Just look at EWU games and try to figure out who is the point guard. What we old folks think of as a PG is not really part of today's game.

[/quote]
This often happens where a guard is labled a point guard not because of their game, but because they are short. I would much rather they be referred to as a combo guard. Also, what we call a PG in today's game is not the same as 30 years ago. Just look at EWU games and try to figure out who is the point guard. What we old folks think of as a PG is not really part of today's game.
[/quote]

I agree with Oldrunner that the term point guard is much different than it was before, but I think the evolution is between a scoring or pure point guard. And there are exceptions, such as Dillion Jones at Weber and The Joker with the Nuggets, but most teams more or less run with someone you could identify as the point guard. BartTorvik.com estimates a player’s position based on algorithms. He lists many different positions, but the ones pertinent to this conversation are these 3 (scoring, pure or combo). I think a combo guard is someone that is primarily a 1 or a 2, but can give you back-up minutes at the secondary position if needed.

.
Here is how he has labeled the Big Sky’s guards that I would have named as each team’s point guard if asked:

1. Tyreese Davis (EWU) – Scoring PG
2. Darius Brown (MSU) – Pure PG
3. No PG listed (WSU) – This makes sense for obvious reasons and I would not have named a person. If pressed I would have said Dillon Jones.
4. Gianni Hunt (SAC) – Scoring PG
5. No PG listed (ISU) – I would have said Tomley but he is listed as combo guard.
6. Cam Parker (PSU) – Scoring PG
7. No PG listed (Montana) – Moody, Whitney, Martin and Vasquez all combo guards. I would have said Whitney, but I also have always said he is a combo.
8. Johnson (UNC) – Scoring PG – Kountz also listed as Scoring PG
9. Divante Moffitt (Idaho) – Scoring PG
10. No point guard listed (NAU) – Cone is who I would have named, but I also would have said of anyone on this list, he is more like a 2 than anyone on this list.


I think you can quibble with what is scoring or pure, but with the exception of ISU, I think this is spot on.

This often happens where a guard is labled a point guard not because of their game, but because they are short. I would much rather they be referred to as a combo guard. Also, what we call a PG in today's game is not the same as 30 years ago. Just look at EWU games and try to figure out who is the point guard. What we old folks think of as a PG is not really part of today's game.
[/quote]

I agree with Oldrunner that the term point guard is much different than it was before, but I think the evolution is between a scoring or pure point guard. And there are exceptions, such as Dillion Jones at Weber and The Joker with the Nuggets, but most teams more or less run with someone you could identify as the point guard. BartTorvik.com estimates a player’s position based on algorithms. He lists many different positions, but the ones pertinent to this conversation are these 3 (scoring, pure or combo). I think a combo guard is someone that is primarily a 1 or a 2, but can give you back-up minutes at the secondary position if needed.

.
Here is how he has labeled the Big Sky’s guards that I would have named as each team’s point guard if asked:

1. Tyreese Davis (EWU) – Scoring PG
2. Darius Brown (MSU) – Pure PG
3. No PG listed (WSU) – This makes sense for obvious reasons and I would not have named a person. If pressed I would have said Dillon Jones.
4. Gianni Hunt (SAC) – Scoring PG
5. No PG listed (ISU) – I would have said Tomley but he is listed as combo guard.
6. Cam Parker (PSU) – Scoring PG
7. No PG listed (Montana) – Moody, Whitney, Martin and Vasquez all combo guards. I would have said Whitney, but I also have always said he is a combo.
8. Johnson (UNC) – Scoring PG – Kountz also listed as Scoring PG
9. Divante Moffitt (Idaho) – Scoring PG
10. No point guard listed (NAU) – Cone is who I would have named, but I also would have said of anyone on this list, he is more like a 2 than anyone on this list.


I think you can quibble with what is scoring or pure, but with the exception of ISU, I think this is spot on.
[/quote]
Good find. I agree with all of that. Today's game puts a premium on guys who can play multiple positions. Another position that is virtually nonexistant in todays game is the true center. Most teams just go with their tallest, strongest player. Most coaches want them to have the ability to go outside, like a stretch 4.