Montana law once again...

Get the low down on Griz/FCS Football
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

In my lifetime, the Montana Constitution has been declared unconstitutional and now dutchie and his drunken colleagues did this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Absolutely amazing, isn't it?
User avatar
kemajic
eGriz Club
Posts: 12853
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus

CatGrad-UMGradStu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 am
In my lifetime, the Montana Constitution has been declared unconstitutional and now dutchie and his drunken colleagues did this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Absolutely amazing, isn't it?
Subscription required. No thanks.
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard, grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em." - Webb Wilder
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

kemajic wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:26 am
CatGrad-UMGradStu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:17 am
In my lifetime, the Montana Constitution has been declared unconstitutional and now dutchie and his drunken colleagues did this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Absolutely amazing, isn't it?
Subscription required. No thanks.
Clear your history. It might be in the Lee Montana papers tomorrow.
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

CatGrad-UMGradStu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am
kemajic wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:26 am

Subscription required. No thanks.
Clear your history. It might be in the Lee Montana papers tomorrow.
Or you can read it here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/s ... e=Homepage
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

CatGrad-UMGradStu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:32 am
CatGrad-UMGradStu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:29 am


Clear your history. It might be in the Lee Montana papers tomorrow.
Or you can read it here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/us/s ... e=Homepage
Or here:

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... schooling/

Or wait until this afternoon or tomorrow and read it in one of Lee Montana's papers...
Dutch Lane
eGriz Club
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:06 pm

What do you think this is, PR’s Coronavirus/taboo thread or something, where anything goes? Take this tripe to the political board where it belongs. moderators do your jobs. Let me guess you only read the article and not the 92 page opinion and dissents right? So what’s your learned Constitutional analysis there chief, care to enlighten us drunkards with your withering critique of the this stunning but still expected 5-4 decision?
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

Holy shit! There's an ambulance...
User avatar
IdaGriz01
Posts: 9471
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: Idaho Falls

Dutch Lane wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:09 pm
What do you think this is, PR’s Coronavirus/taboo thread or something, where anything goes? Take this tripe to the political board where it belongs. moderators do your jobs. Let me guess you only read the article and not the 92 page opinion and dissents right? So what’s your learned Constitutional analysis there chief, care to enlighten us drunkards with your withering critique of the this stunning but still expected 5-4 decision?
Why stunning? No Constitutional scholar (God forbid, since that inevitably requires lawyerese). However, the logical progression seems pretty simple to me. (FWIW, I’m not an affiliate of any organized religion.)

Citizen = taxpayer (with the usual exemptions = loopholes allowed to all).
Parent = citizen (generally speaking)
Loophole = Private school tax credit. The (perfectly valid) rationale here is that all citizens pay taxes, but those who send their kids to private schools get no benefit. You may agree or disagree that this credit should exist … but it does.

Tax credits (a loophole) for parent of student attending a licensed and accredited private school.
Accredited private school = Missoula International School (endowment and business/private donations)
Accredited private school = Lighthouse Baptist Academy (basic funding from church organization)

Nationally, a bit over three-quarters of all private schools have some religious affiliation, BTW.

What the Court plainly said was that any private school that meets state licensing standards is eligible for the tax credit. That is, you cannot exclude one based on some particular part of the curriculum … if the curriculum is otherwise legitimately accredited. (How the school is funded is irrelevant .)
tourist
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:20 am

Dutch Lane wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:09 pm
What do you think this is, PR’s Coronavirus/taboo thread or something, where anything goes? Take this tripe to the political board where it belongs. moderators do your jobs. Let me guess you only read the article and not the 92 page opinion and dissents right? So what’s your learned Constitutional analysis there chief, care to enlighten us drunkards with your withering critique of the this stunning but still expected 5-4 decision?
Well, if you've got some Griz football to talk about, GO FOR IT! as I'd like to see some. Been kind of void of this material for about three months. Cat-Grad did mention your name, though, so go for it. :thumb:
PlayerRep
Posts: 27392
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:06 am

This is a very significant case.This decision will be good for schools like Loyola, including for athletes wanting to go there. Some parents can get a tax credit, just like non-religious school parents. It's a good decision. It wasn't clear what the decision would be contrary, to what the dui lawyer said.

See, the case impacts athletics and football.
User avatar
WaGriz4life
Posts: 4062
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:48 pm
Location: Montana

Great decision
User avatar
fanofzoo
Posts: 3963
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:08 am
Location: missoula

WaGriz4life wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:23 pm
Great decision
YOUR tax payer (prayer) dollars at work
PlayerRep
Posts: 27392
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:06 am

fanofzoo wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:36 pm
WaGriz4life wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:23 pm
Great decision
YOUR tax payer (prayer) dollars at work
A tax credit does not involve your tax dollars.
Dutch Lane
eGriz Club
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:06 pm

tourist wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:45 pm
Dutch Lane wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:09 pm
What do you think this is, PR’s Coronavirus/taboo thread or something, where anything goes? Take this tripe to the political board where it belongs. moderators do your jobs. Let me guess you only read the article and not the 92 page opinion and dissents right? So what’s your learned Constitutional analysis there chief, care to enlighten us drunkards with your withering critique of the this stunning but still expected 5-4 decision?
Well, if you've got some Griz football to talk about, GO FOR IT! as I'd like to see some. Been kind of void of this material for about three months. Cat-Grad did mention your name, though, so go for it. :thumb:
Good to hear from you Tourist, you have been off the radar for too long now. If only there was some Griz football to speak of rather then a tax provision that allows a $150 deduction.
PlayerRep
Posts: 27392
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:06 am

Dutch Lane wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:28 pm
tourist wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:45 pm


Well, if you've got some Griz football to talk about, GO FOR IT! as I'd like to see some. Been kind of void of this material for about three months. Cat-Grad did mention your name, though, so go for it. :thumb:
Good to hear from you Tourist, you have been off the radar for too long now. If only there was some Griz football to speak of rather then a tax provision that allows a $150 deduction.
A tax credit is not a deduction. It is also an annual tax credit. It's $150 per donor per year. The law was passed in 2015, so Bullock must have signed the original law, which he then later opposed.

"Similar prohibitions, known as Blaine Amendments, exist in the constitutions of 36 other states, and in many cases stemmed from anti-Catholic sentiments."

"Montana’s tax-credit scholarship program was similar to programs run in 18 states, according to a friend-of-the-court brief submitted to the justices."

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/30/supreme ... ships.html
CatGrad-UMGradStu
Posts: 1057
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:03 pm

Our after the fact reactions, split over party lines for some reason. Imagine that. Once again, however, one ought to be better craftsmen with a pen. Just as we have a hell of a time teaching young Second Lieutenants to say what they mean and mean what they say, so too ought those we send to Helena to write our laws be better with the written word. What a testament to our English teachers, civics teachers, etc.

https://billingsgazette.com/news/state- ... b1399.html
Grizzoola
eGriz Club
Posts: 3913
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:03 pm
Location: Henderson, NV

It's a dangerous mix of religion and state, what the FFs tried to avoid. Too many wars caused over religious differences, supported by govts. Just look at the Middle East. When the Catholics controlled Europe, it was the darkest times in European history, persecutions, killings, wars, etc.
User avatar
IdaGriz01
Posts: 9471
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: Idaho Falls

Grizzoola wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:51 pm
It's a dangerous mix of religion and state, what the FFs tried to avoid. Too many wars caused over religious differences, supported by govts. Just look at the Middle East. When the Catholics controlled Europe, it was the darkest times in European history, persecutions, killings, wars, etc.
All valid points of history.

Nevertheless, despite crowing by the religious folks, and anguish by their opponents, the decision was about "equal treatment under the law." That is (see my comments above): if you allow a tax break to parents sending students to a duly licensed and accredited private school, you cannot treat them differently based some part of the school's legally-allowed curriculum.

FWIW, my wife reminded me of a fact proven by years of observation: Many parents send their kids to "religious" schools without any adherence to the religion involve. (The suit was brought, BTW, by parents whose kids went to "nondenominational Christian" schools.) They simply want the best possible education for their kids, and they don't believe public schools in their area provide that. And they're often absolutely correct. Back when we ran a regional science fair here, we noted three facts. First, home schooled students won top awards out of all proportion to their numbers. Next in line were students enrolled in the Roman Catholic schools. And right behind them were students from, specifically, "Hope Lutheran" school. Despite vastly more entries, students from the public schools won comparatively few of our very top awards.
Dutch Lane
eGriz Club
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:06 pm

PlayerRep wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:02 pm
This is a very significant case.This decision will be good for schools like Loyola, including for athletes wanting to go there. Some parents can get a tax credit, just like non-religious school parents. It's a good decision. It wasn't clear what the decision would be contrary, to what the dui lawyer said.

See, the case impacts athletics and football.
Yeah it was clear to constitutional scholars, unlike yourself what the outcome would be. It’s been a 5-4 conservative split court for years PR, come on you’re a lawyer you should know that. Roberts, Thomas, Kavanaugh and Alito are all Catholics and they all went to Catholic prep schools or colleges, so yeah the outcome was clear to most of us attorneys.

Ps. Your mean girl side is showing again, PR. There’s no point in mocking a professional colleague on a college football forum, it just makes you look like an insecure bully, and for a guy with your curriculum vitae. smh. Don’t fall pray to your hurt inner child PR, remember you are good enough, and you’re smart enough and dog gone it most people probably do like you. Go Griz.
Dutch Lane
eGriz Club
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:06 pm

IdaGriz01 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:31 pm
Grizzoola wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:51 pm
It's a dangerous mix of religion and state, what the FFs tried to avoid. Too many wars caused over religious differences, supported by govts. Just look at the Middle East. When the Catholics controlled Europe, it was the darkest times in European history, persecutions, killings, wars, etc.
All valid points of history.

Nevertheless, despite crowing by the religious folks, and anguish by their opponents, the decision was about "equal treatment under the law." That is (see my comments above): if you allow a tax break to parents sending students to a duly licensed and accredited private school, you cannot treat them differently based some part of the school's legally-allowed curriculum.

FWIW, my wife reminded me of a fact proven by years of observation: Many parents send their kids to "religious" schools without any adherence to the religion involve. (The suit was brought, BTW, by parents whose kids went to "nondenominational Christian" schools.) They simply want the best possible education for their kids, and they don't believe public schools in their area provide that. And they're often absolutely correct. Back when we ran a regional science fair here, we noted three facts. First, home schooled students won top awards out of all proportion to their numbers. Next in line were students enrolled in the Roman Catholic schools. And right behind them were students from, specifically, "Hope Lutheran" school. Despite vastly more entries, students from the public schools won comparatively few of our very top awards.
I have seen the same thing with our local spelling bees the homeschool kids absolutely kick ass year after year at these bees. I used to get asked to judge high school debates and I also noticed that some of the smaller rural schooled kids did just as well or better them the double A kids. I’m not a big fan of the decision because of the culture of all white “Christian” academies that sprung up all over the south after Brown v. Board of Education in order to preserve segregation in private schools, another continuing legacy of the Jim Crow south.
Post Reply