A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

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citay
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A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Wed May 15, 2019 1:28 pm

If any of you saw last night's Warriors-Blazers game, there was a lesson encoded there for us Griz fans.

Namely, that as Curry came off screens at the three-point line, Enes Kanter remained stationed in the post area, several feet away from Curry, giving Curry several wide-open looks, which of course he seldom misses. Post-game analysis excoriated the Blazers for this, and said that unless Terry Stott fixes this problem, it's going to be a short series. And I think Kanter is either going to adjust--if he can--or see less playing time.

This too was the reason that Andrew Bogut saw almost no playing time against Houston, given their deadly capabilities from three.

So what? So this: This is precisely the reason Kramer and Carter are no longer with the Griz. In the bygone era of basketball, the big men stayed rooted near the basket so as to prevent the easier close-in shots. If a guy wanted to shoot from outside, let him: The percentages were less, and the big was there to defend the rim.

But in the three-point era, any time a guy can shoot 35% or better from three--and many now can shoot way better than that--you have to defend that shot. And that means your bigs have to be mobile enough and agile enough to come out and not only defend but switch off at the three-point line.

To paraphrase Micheal Ray's famous line, "The ship be sinkin':" "Oh, yeah, the game be changin'."

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Zirg
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by Zirg » Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 am

you are right. If you can't make a 3-pointer, you should quit playing basketball! I am only half-way kidding, but the game is changing very quickly and I (for one) do NOT think this is the "golden-age of basketball". I think it's garbage with all the 3-point shots and/or "run into someone and throw an off-balanced crap toward the net" like Harden does. But that's what is working today, so I don't see it changing.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by grizzlyjournal » Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 am

Zirg wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 am
you are right. If you can't make a 3-pointer, you should quit playing basketball! I am only half-way kidding, but the game is changing very quickly and I (for one) do NOT think this is the "golden-age of basketball". I think it's garbage with all the 3-point shots and/or "run into someone and throw an off-balanced crap toward the net" like Harden does. But that's what is working today, so I don't see it changing.
Agreed, Zirg. I'm mainly a college hoops fan, but have watched quite a bit of the NBA playoffs so far. There's a lot to consider re: whether the game of hoops has "outgrown" the physical dimensions of the court. I never would have thought that I'd consider a perimeter shot (for which a "3" is awarded) boring. But nowadays I do. I much prefer watching the contested action within the 3-point arc.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by VictorG » Thu May 16, 2019 10:31 am

I've read "talk" about someday there may be a 4 point line. Some NBA teams even have it on their practice floor.....They have some players that can actually make a decent % at that distance plus it spreads out the floor more when teams have to defend it....

citay
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Thu May 16, 2019 12:07 pm

Back in 1993, I was intensely interested in this match-up: Patrick Ewing versus the heralded rookie, Shaquille O'Neal. It was a marquee Sunday matchup, nationally televised, and I could hardly wait to see it.
And I'll never forget my reaction: By halftime, I'd turned off the TV. It was nothing but bumping, grinding, pushing, shoving, one-on-one basketball between two behemoths, like a couple of male elephants fighting for superiority. B-o-r-r-r-ing! A low-scoring snooze-fest.

It sure wasn't my favorite brand of basketball, which is pell-mell, fast-break "Showtime" basketball, a la the old Lakers, or today's Warriors. So I for one prefer today's brand of Warrior-style ball. I like the three-point shot. My God, if you can't marvel at Curry's ability to fire off shots with machine-gun rapidity from 30-plus feet, while closely guarded, and hit nothing but net, then I don't know what style of basketball you prefer.

And I am so happy our Griz are attuned to this style, to current trends in basketball. I'm loving it.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by fanofzoo » Thu May 16, 2019 12:36 pm

grizzlyjournal wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 am
Zirg wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 am
you are right. If you can't make a 3-pointer, you should quit playing basketball! I am only half-way kidding, but the game is changing very quickly and I (for one) do NOT think this is the "golden-age of basketball". I think it's garbage with all the 3-point shots and/or "run into someone and throw an off-balanced crap toward the net" like Harden does. But that's what is working today, so I don't see it changing.
Agreed, Zirg. I'm mainly a college hoops fan, but have watched quite a bit of the NBA playoffs so far. There's a lot to consider re: whether the game of hoops has "outgrown" the physical dimensions of the court. I never would have thought that I'd consider a perimeter shot (for which a "3" is awarded) boring. But nowadays I do. I much prefer watching the contested action within the 3-point arc.
What if we went back to no 3 pt line?

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by grizzlyjournal » Thu May 16, 2019 1:54 pm

citay wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:07 pm
Back in 1993, I was intensely interested in this match-up: Patrick Ewing versus the heralded rookie, Shaquille O'Neal. It was a marquee Sunday matchup, nationally televised, and I could hardly wait to see it.
And I'll never forget my reaction: By halftime, I'd turned off the TV. It was nothing but bumping, grinding, pushing, shoving, one-on-one basketball between two behemoths, like a couple of male elephants fighting for superiority. B-o-r-r-r-ing! A low-scoring snooze-fest.

It sure wasn't my favorite brand of basketball, which is pell-mell, fast-break "Showtime" basketball, a la the old Lakers, or today's Warriors. So I for one prefer today's brand of Warrior-style ball. I like the three-point shot. My God, if you can't marvel at Curry's ability to fire off shots with machine-gun rapidity from 30-plus feet, while closely guarded, and hit nothing but net, then I don't know what style of basketball you prefer.

And I am so happy our Griz are attuned to this style, to current trends in basketball. I'm loving it.
I love nothing more than hoops played at breakneck speed with all the aspects of the sudden pendulum swing of offense-to-defense and suddenly back to defense-to-defense again... with as little interference from the refs as the game can tolerate. So, don't get me wrong citay, I think hoops is the best of all team games, and awarding 3pts stretches the floor and speeds it up nicely. But I also think that a perimeter game can get repitious. Maybe what I'm advocating is that the game continue to evolve, with speed and continual flow as the primary objectives... which also means that the REAL job of refs is to promote continuous game flow as much as possible. College reffing could learn a lot from NBA officiating. Let em play (as much as the game can tolerate).

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by grizzlyjournal » Thu May 16, 2019 9:41 pm

A great classic hoops game tonight. Fascinating outside-inside-inside action. And both teams used the full court.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by maroonandsilver » Fri May 17, 2019 10:17 am

Basketball is trending more and more to "Positionless Basketball". Hellgate High played this a lot this year. It could be argued that the Griz played their best basketball this year after Ahoh was lost and they were forced to use a smaller line-up.
One of my favorite teams to watch was the 1988-89 Illinois team (even tho I couldn't stand Coach Lou Henson) which made it to the final four of the '89 NCAA, starting five 6'4" players who were interchangable.

The NCAA tested changes this year during the NIT. Those changes tested were: moving the 3-pt line to the FIBA range, expanding the key 2 feet to NBA width, and playing quarters. It sounds like they plan to use the NIT again in 2020 to test again before making any changes, but there is still one more rules committee meeting in May, so changes could happen in 2019.
Moving the lines (3-pt and key) is thought to spread things out more and open the key area up to encourage more driving to the basket. These changes would obviously make mobility even more of an asset. (Tony Miller and Sayeed Pridgett will love it!)
Moving to quarters seems to me a no-brainer. NCAA Men are the only basketball entity not playing quarters. The games move faster and smoother with less parades to the foul line at the ends of games. My unofficial observation after watching all Griz and Lady Griz home games, is the Lady's games end 5-10 minutes quicker than the Men's.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

maroonandsilver wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:17 am
Basketball is trending more and more to "Positionless Basketball". Hellgate High played this a lot this year. It could be argued that the Griz played their best basketball this year after Ahoh was lost and they were forced to use a smaller line-up.
One of my favorite teams to watch was the 1988-89 Illinois team (even tho I couldn't stand Coach Lou Henson) which made it to the final four of the '89 NCAA, starting five 6'4" players who were interchangable.

The NCAA tested changes this year during the NIT. Those changes tested were: moving the 3-pt line to the FIBA range, expanding the key 2 feet to NBA width, and playing quarters. It sounds like they plan to use the NIT again in 2020 to test again before making any changes, but there is still one more rules committee meeting in May, so changes could happen in 2019.
Moving the lines (3-pt and key) is thought to spread things out more and open the key area up to encourage more driving to the basket. These changes would obviously make mobility even more of an asset. (Tony Miller and Sayeed Pridgett will love it!)
Moving to quarters seems to me a no-brainer. NCAA Men are the only basketball entity not playing quarters. The games move faster and smoother with less parades to the foul line at the ends of games. My unofficial observation after watching all Griz and Lady Griz home games, is the Lady's games end 5-10 minutes quicker than the Men's.
My Grandfather told me that the trend toward smaller quicker players was in evidence all the way back in the 60's, when UCLA won a couple of national titles with Walt Hazzard, Gail Goodrich and Fred Slaughter, none taller than 6'5". John Wooden was the first coach to recruit for quickness over height. Of course, then Lew Alcindor came along, and restored the pre-eminence of the big man.

But that was before the three-point shot. That swung everything back to "position-less" basketball that we see today, because if you can shoot three's at better than 35%, you have the advantage over the two-point shot. And Steph Curry's percentage for the 2019 regular season? 43.7%. That means every make on average accounts for 1.31, points, where a player shooting 60% from inside the arc accounts for only 1.2 points on average. Why it took the NBA so long to figure this out is a mystery to me.

Oh, wait a minute--Steph Curry.
Last edited by citay on Fri May 17, 2019 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by Proud Griz Man » Fri May 17, 2019 12:59 pm

citay wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

My Grandfather told me that the trend toward smaller quicker players was in evidence all the way back in the 60's, when UCLA won a couple of national titles
Sidney Wicks
Curtis Rowe
Lew Alcinder
Swen Nater
Bill Walton
Steve Patterson
Ralph Drollinger
Marc Eaton
George Zidek
Dan Gadzuric
Marques Johnson
Jack Haley
Ryan Hollins
:shock: there was no shortage of low-post players at UCLA.

citay
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Fri May 17, 2019 5:14 pm

Proud Griz Man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:59 pm
citay wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

My Grandfather told me that the trend toward smaller quicker players was in evidence all the way back in the 60's, when UCLA won a couple of national titles
Sidney Wicks
Curtis Rowe
Lew Alcinder
Swen Nater
Bill Walton
Steve Patterson
Ralph Drollinger
Marc Eaton
George Zidek
Dan Gadzuric
Marques Johnson
Jack Haley
Ryan Hollins
:shock: there was no shortage of low-post players at UCLA.
Wow, you're going w-a-y back in time. I don't think a single one of these guys played in the 3-point era.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by Proud Griz Man » Fri May 17, 2019 5:36 pm

You stated that the trend towards smaller quicker players began in the 1960's. Then you criticize me for recalling post-players (non-small players) for the UCLA team you used to make your point.
:loser: :loser: :loser: :loser:
citay wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 5:14 pm
Proud Griz Man wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:59 pm
citay wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:44 am

My Grandfather told me that the trend toward smaller quicker players was in evidence all the way back in the 60's, when UCLA won a couple of national titles
Sidney Wicks
Curtis Rowe
Lew Alcinder
Swen Nater
Bill Walton
Steve Patterson
Ralph Drollinger
Marc Eaton
George Zidek
Dan Gadzuric
Marques Johnson
Jack Haley
Ryan Hollins
:shock: there was no shortage of low-post players at UCLA.
Wow, you're going w-a-y back in time. I don't think a single one of these guys played in the 3-point era.

citay
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Sat May 18, 2019 10:10 am

One thing I learned from journalism school: You can think you made yourself clear, when others just don't get it. So:

I didn't claim that small ball STARTED in the 1960's. I meant only that there was PRECEDENT for it in the two teams that won NCAA championships under John Wooden in the early1960's, with smaller quicker players and no starters over 6'5".

I thought I made it clear that this ended when Lew Alcindor came aboard for them and restored the pre-eminence of the big man.

That finally, "position-less" basketball really took hold not only with the advent of the three-point line, but the emergence of Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Damien Lillard and others who not only perfected the three-point shot, but extended the range well beyond the three-point line itself.

But that Steph Curry really began this trend with his incredible range and accuracy--the one guy who has and will continue to obliterate all the old three-point records.

I used the example of the first Ewing-O'Neal match up to show how boring I felt the old-style of basketball was, compared the freer-flowing, open-court, three-point shooting that we see today.

Capiche?

P.S. By the bye, you misquoted me as well. Here's what I wrote: " the trend toward smaller quicker players was in evidence way back in the 60's." I didn't say it started then. If you pull out a quote, and underline it as if that is what I said, be sure to get the quote correct.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by Grizfan-24 » Mon May 20, 2019 1:24 pm

If you watch a ton of high school ball, you can see players struggling on how to play with big kids. The AAU circuit is notoriously hard on big kids, not in regards to physicality, but rather in development. The pace of play is much more rapid and unless you have a disciplined staff AAU big kids can get shuffled to the back.

The more you unhinge yourself from traditional basketball models you can find that traditional modes are really restricting. Your offensive sets are crisper, and per my experience you can introduce a simple set of rules offensively that allows any of the 5 players on the floor to execute it.

Where I see the benefit is defensively. The more you go away from the 1v1 shadow principles and engage in triangle defending (pack line type stuff), you can defend most offenses and positions regardless of the height you have. as such you don't need a 6-10 guy, because you can defend tall post guys with a 6-5 (not ideal but you can do it) player because of all the help you get.
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by citay » Mon May 20, 2019 1:54 pm

Grizfan-24 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:24 pm
If you watch a ton of high school ball, you can see players struggling on how to play with big kids. The AAU circuit is notoriously hard on big kids, not in regards to physicality, but rather in development. The pace of play is much more rapid and unless you have a disciplined staff AAU big kids can get shuffled to the back.

The more you unhinge yourself from traditional basketball models you can find that traditional modes are really restricting. Your offensive sets are crisper, and per my experience you can introduce a simple set of rules offensively that allows any of the 5 players on the floor to execute it.

Where I see the benefit is defensively. The more you go away from the 1v1 shadow principles and engage in triangle defending (pack line type stuff), you can defend most offenses and positions regardless of the height you have. as such you don't need a 6-10 guy, because you can defend tall post guys with a 6-5 (not ideal but you can do it) player because of all the help you get.
Astute observation.

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Zirg
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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by Zirg » Wed May 22, 2019 11:52 pm

fanofzoo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:36 pm
grizzlyjournal wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 am
Zirg wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 am
you are right. If you can't make a 3-pointer, you should quit playing basketball! I am only half-way kidding, but the game is changing very quickly and I (for one) do NOT think this is the "golden-age of basketball". I think it's garbage with all the 3-point shots and/or "run into someone and throw an off-balanced crap toward the net" like Harden does. But that's what is working today, so I don't see it changing.
Agreed, Zirg. I'm mainly a college hoops fan, but have watched quite a bit of the NBA playoffs so far. There's a lot to consider re: whether the game of hoops has "outgrown" the physical dimensions of the court. I never would have thought that I'd consider a perimeter shot (for which a "3" is awarded) boring. But nowadays I do. I much prefer watching the contested action within the 3-point arc.
What if we went back to no 3 pt line?
I think the NCAA will move the 3-point line back. They have an incentive to keep some competitive balance. The NBA doesn't give a crap.

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Re: A Simple Lesson for Griz Fans

Post by AZGrizFan » Thu May 23, 2019 10:34 am

Zirg wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:52 pm
fanofzoo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:36 pm
grizzlyjournal wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 am
Zirg wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:04 am
you are right. If you can't make a 3-pointer, you should quit playing basketball! I am only half-way kidding, but the game is changing very quickly and I (for one) do NOT think this is the "golden-age of basketball". I think it's garbage with all the 3-point shots and/or "run into someone and throw an off-balanced crap toward the net" like Harden does. But that's what is working today, so I don't see it changing.
Agreed, Zirg. I'm mainly a college hoops fan, but have watched quite a bit of the NBA playoffs so far. There's a lot to consider re: whether the game of hoops has "outgrown" the physical dimensions of the court. I never would have thought that I'd consider a perimeter shot (for which a "3" is awarded) boring. But nowadays I do. I much prefer watching the contested action within the 3-point arc.
What if we went back to no 3 pt line?
I think the NCAA will move the 3-point line back. They have an incentive to keep some competitive balance. The NBA doesn't give a crap.
For the NBA to move the 3-point line back they'd need to widen the court. :lol: :lol:
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