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On Success

C

citygriz

Well-known member
I came across a quote today that really resonated with me, both in my business and in my personal life:

“The first step toward success is taken when you refuse to be a captive of the environment in which you first find yourself.”

Which led me to thoughts about both our football and basketball programs.

Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan, but even that glimmer has faded with the announcement of four future games with-- Dixie State??!! The old "Cadillac" has become a Toyota, former foes whizzing past us on a freeway to Frisco Nowhere Texas.

Basketball: Same conference, yes, but higher aspirations. Rising coaching star scheduling UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh and Creighton, the while recruiting terrific young talent, reaching the Big Dance twice and setting the goal of a Sweet 16 appearance among the best collegiate programs the country has to offer.

I'm as much a football fan as the next guy on this board. I'll sit and watch college football games by the hour in which I have no rooting interest. And I used to be as passionate about our football program as I am now about our basketball team, posting regularly on the football board.

But Dixie State? Butler? Monmouth? Frisco, Texas?

Frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn.
 
I find myself wanting to see the start of basketball over football, the tide is turning.
 
citay said:
I came across a quote today that really resonated with me, both in my business and in my personal life:

“The first step toward success is taken when you refuse to be a captive of the environment in which you first find yourself.”

Which led me to thoughts about both our football and basketball programs.

Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan, but even that glimmer has faded with the announcement of four future games with-- Dixie State??!! The old "Cadillac" has become a Toyota, former foes whizzing past us on a freeway to Frisco Nowhere Texas.

Basketball: Same conference, yes, but higher aspirations. Rising coaching star scheduling UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh and Creighton, the while recruiting terrific young talent, reaching the Big Dance twice and setting the goal of a Sweet 16 appearance among the best collegiate programs the country has to offer.

I'm as much a football fan as the next guy on this board. I'll sit and watch college football games by the hour in which I have no rooting interest. And I used to be as passionate about our football program as I am now about our basketball team, posting regularly on the football board.

But Dixie State? Butler? Monmouth? Frisco, Texas?

Frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn.
Click to expand...
Bravo!!!!
 
I don't agree with the OP. Football and basketball really aren't comparable, as they are not played at the same levels. Basketball is at the D-I level, the top level. Football is at the FCS level, the second top level. FCS teams can't schedule "UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh" in the same year, nor would any team wanting to advance to the playoffs do that. The cost of games and travel to games is just not comparable, due to the number of players and equipment, and cost to put on a game. Sorry, but just not apples to apples.

I don't agree with the below quote either. The Big Sky isn't a mediocre conference. It's one of the top 3 conference, year in and year out. The FCS national championship game is not a "second-rate" championship, in my view. It is followed and respected by many. I once injured Hauck to Chris Berman at the Ivy football dinner. Berman knew exactly who Hauck was and knew UM had been to the national championship game. He treated that championship and Hauck with considerable respect.

I don't think UM's goal of scheduling Oregon and UW is to get an App St-esque victory either.

"Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan,"

On the other hand, Travis is doing very good things with the Griz. I think Hauck will get the football team rolling again.
 
fanofzoo said:
I find myself wanting to see the start of basketball over football, the tide is turning.
Click to expand...

th



It's been 35 years since I've been less interested in GRIZ football than I am right now.
 
citay said:
I came across a quote today that really resonated with me, both in my business and in my personal life:

“The first step toward success is taken when you refuse to be a captive of the environment in which you first find yourself.”

Which led me to thoughts about both our football and basketball programs.

Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan, but even that glimmer has faded with the announcement of four future games with-- Dixie State??!! The old "Cadillac" has become a Toyota, former foes whizzing past us on a freeway to Frisco Nowhere Texas.

Basketball: Same conference, yes, but higher aspirations. Rising coaching star scheduling UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh and Creighton, the while recruiting terrific young talent, reaching the Big Dance twice and setting the goal of a Sweet 16 appearance among the best collegiate programs the country has to offer.

I'm as much a football fan as the next guy on this board. I'll sit and watch college football games by the hour in which I have no rooting interest. And I used to be as passionate about our football program as I am now about our basketball team, posting regularly on the football board.

But Dixie State? Butler? Monmouth? Frisco, Texas?

Frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn.
Click to expand...
Basketball and football are two different animals. There is an upper echelon that is really untouchable to small schools. Each year it is about 6-7 schools that have a chance to play in national championship game (Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Ohio St, ND etc..) while anything can happen in basketball. You only have to put 5 kids on the floor and one or two can make a huge difference. With the elite talent being one and done at places like Duke, NC and Kentucky smaller schools have a legit chance to compete with kids that have played together for four years. Football on the other hand is all about numbers and depth. There is no way a school like Montana could bump up and play the big boys. It is just not feasible or realistic. The FCS is were UM belongs.. much better than being a low level FBS school where your best hope is playing in some meaningless bowl game in front of a half empty stadium.
 
Rico, I don't disagree with the primary argument in your post. Except...

playing in some meaningless bowl game in front of a half empty stadium.
Click to expand...

Is it? Is playing in a meaningless "national" championship in front of a half-empty SOCCER stadium really better?

The only advantage the fcs has over the fbs is playoffs. And once that gets figured out at the fbs level, they'll be absolutely no advantage. UM belongs with its peers. And those do not include the 39 directional schools we're saddled with currently.
 
tourist said:
EverettGriz said:
It's been 35 years since I've been less interested in GRIZ football than I am right now.
Click to expand...

Larry Donovan didn't stimulate your interest? :lol:
Click to expand...

No, but early in the season the games made for a really solid 3 hours of drinking in the sun. It was just the stagger back to campus that was a challenge.
 
PlayerRep said:
I don't agree with the OP. Football and basketball really aren't comparable, as they are not played at the same levels. Basketball is at the D-I level, the top level. Football is at the FCS level, the second top level. FCS teams can't schedule "UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh" in the same year, nor would any team wanting to advance to the playoffs do that. The cost of games and travel to games is just not comparable, due to the number of players and equipment, and cost to put on a game. Sorry, but just not apples to apples.

I don't agree with the below quote either. The Big Sky isn't a mediocre conference. It's one of the top 3 conference, year in and year out. The FCS national championship game is not a "second-rate" championship, in my view. It is followed and respected by many. I once injured Hauck to Chris Berman at the Ivy football dinner. Berman knew exactly who Hauck was and knew UM had been to the national championship game. He treated that championship and Hauck with considerable respect.

I don't think UM's goal of scheduling Oregon and UW is to get an App St-esque victory either.

"Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan,"

On the other hand, Travis is doing very good things with the Griz. I think Hauck will get the football team rolling again.
Click to expand...

That's a good solid rational response to what essentially is an expression of an emotion on my part--or more precisely, the absence of an emotion:I just ain't feelin' it for football anymore. When twenty years ago, it was exactly the opposite: I could have cared less about basketball. Testimony, I think, to what Tinks and now most especially, DeCuire, have done to revive the basketball program.

But let me say this too: While Washington and Oregon are not on our level in football, neither should be Dixie State, Monmouth, and all the other directional nobodies and small independent schools that now populate our non-conference football schedule. The University of Montana is a proud flagship institution representing the state of Montana, and should be playing other schools or our stature: Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah State, Boise State, UNLV, et. al. The ticket to the Mountain West conference would have been to join the old WAC, and then been grandfathered into the MWC--a move I was heartily in favor of back in the "move up" debates. My rationale then: Not to grow is to die. And when we were already king of the Big Sky and a bona fide FCS power, I saw only one way to go in the absence of greater competition: Down. And that is exactly what happened. We're the program that inspired other programs to exceed us.

Oh, I'll have my eye on the football team. I'll watch their games. I'll hope we can get back to the stature we once had. But meantime, my passion has shifted to basketball program, where the real opportunities for excellence and national acclaim now reside.
 
EverettGriz said:
tourist said:
EverettGriz said:
It's been 35 years since I've been less interested in GRIZ football than I am right now.
Click to expand...

Larry Donovan didn't stimulate your interest? :lol:
Click to expand...

No, but early in the season the games made for a really solid 3 hours of drinking in the sun. It was just the stagger back to campus that was a challenge.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, New Dornblaser Stadium. Been there, done that. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. One mile from campus, but two miles back. I could no more walk a straight line back than you could. Not exactly information you would want to share with your kids or grandkids. :eek: At least Swarthout produced much better football than you had to endure.
 
tourist said:
EverettGriz said:
tourist said:
EverettGriz said:
It's been 35 years since I've been less interested in GRIZ football than I am right now.
Click to expand...

Larry Donovan didn't stimulate your interest? :lol:
Click to expand...

No, but early in the season the games made for a really solid 3 hours of drinking in the sun. It was just the stagger back to campus that was a challenge.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, New Dornblaser Stadium. Been there, done that. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. One mile from campus, but two miles back. I could no more walk a straight line back than you could. Not exactly information you would want to share with your kids or grandkids. :eek: At least Swarthout produced much better football than you had to endure.
Click to expand...

:lol: :clap:
 
citay said:
PlayerRep said:
I don't agree with the OP. Football and basketball really aren't comparable, as they are not played at the same levels. Basketball is at the D-I level, the top level. Football is at the FCS level, the second top level. FCS teams can't schedule "UCLA, Arizona, Pittsburgh" in the same year, nor would any team wanting to advance to the playoffs do that. The cost of games and travel to games is just not comparable, due to the number of players and equipment, and cost to put on a game. Sorry, but just not apples to apples.

I don't agree with the below quote either. The Big Sky isn't a mediocre conference. It's one of the top 3 conference, year in and year out. The FCS national championship game is not a "second-rate" championship, in my view. It is followed and respected by many. I once injured Hauck to Chris Berman at the Ivy football dinner. Berman knew exactly who Hauck was and knew UM had been to the national championship game. He treated that championship and Hauck with considerable respect.

I don't think UM's goal of scheduling Oregon and UW is to get an App St-esque victory either.

"Football: Stuck in a mediocre conference, the highest goal to play for a second-rate national championship. One glimmer of hope: "Scheduling up" and hoping for an Appalachian State-esque victory over a Michigan,"

On the other hand, Travis is doing very good things with the Griz. I think Hauck will get the football team rolling again.
Click to expand...

That's a good solid rational response to what essentially is an expression of an emotion on my part--or more precisely, the absence of an emotion:I just ain't feelin' it for football anymore. When twenty years ago, it was exactly the opposite: I could have cared less about basketball. Testimony, I think, to what Tinks and now most especially, DeCuire, have done to revive the basketball program.

But let me say this too: While Washington and Oregon are not on our level in football, neither should be Dixie State, Monmouth, and all the other directional nobodies and small independent schools that now populate our non-conference football schedule. The University of Montana is a proud flagship institution representing the state of Montana, and should be playing other schools or our stature: Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah State, Boise State, UNLV, et. al. The ticket to the Mountain West conference would have been to join the old WAC, and then been grandfathered into the MWC--a move I was heartily in favor of back in the "move up" debates. My rationale then: Not to grow is to die. And when we were already king of the Big Sky and a bona fide FCS power, I saw only one way to go in the absence of greater competition: Down. And that is exactly what happened. We're the program that inspired other programs to exceed us.

Oh, I'll have my eye on the football team. I'll watch their games. I'll hope we can get back to the stature we once had. But meantime, my passion has shifted to basketball program, where the real opportunities for excellence and national acclaim now reside.
Click to expand...

I don't love playing teams like you mentioned either, but it is the reality of football in this day and age and the FCS level. Note that part of the reason for scheduling these teams and some D-II's is due to the success of UM football. The UM attendance and ticket prices mean that UM can make a lot of money with home games, and the Missoula businesses, some of whom support athletics, benefit from home games.

Dartmouth started scheduling down about a decade ago, and I didn't/don't like that either. Dartmouth did it in part due to getting its butt kicked by the UNH's of the world. Also, to get recruiting exposure in far away places, where the Ivies have to recruit (nationwide).

I'm not sure that some fo the peers you mentioned are really peers of Montana anymore. Times have changed since the 50's/60's, both in sports and academics.

Playing home and homes with some of those "peers" would be fun, but they won't do home and home, most probably don't want to risk losing to us, and none of them can pay nearly as much as UM needs for an extra road game. That's part of the reason UM goes to Oregon, UW, Iowa, Tenn.

Are Boise St. and UNLV really UM's peers? They are often good athletically, but I have never viewed them as academic peers. If anyone wants to do some university ranking searches, I'd be curious to see where UM ranks now compared to the peers you listed. Maybe UM is more comparable than I think.

My view is that UM athletics strives to improve and adapt, everyday of every year. It's not a "grow or die" situation. I also don't believe in grow or die. It's important to work to compete, improve, adapt, etc., and not to become complacent, but that doesn't always mean growing.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
Some interesting points. Good topic. The only thing I have to add is, for me, football is always the main source of pride/disappointment/discussion. Not just at UM, but in general. Around any office, you have alums from different schools talking about how one another's football teams are doing that season. Not so much during CBB season. I'm not sure, but I think it's due to the fact that it coincides with the start of the school year and attending games was our "intro" to college life, school pride, etc. It's just something about the fall air, the start of a new school year, and the feeling that anything can happen. Many of us never really grow out of that particular aspect of that time in our lives; and that's a good thing.

Conversely, while I honestly love basketball and like to think I know much more about it than FB, I think it suffers from timing. Overlapping slightly with FB, getting into the swing of things when it's dark and cold by 4:30 p.m., finals, and winter break, all hurt the atmosphere; even for alums for some reason. It's absolutely awesome to see the recent rise of UM hoops, and I believe the sky is the limit. I'm just trying to say I hope UM sports never become like Kansas or some of the Northeast basketball schools where FB is such an afterthought. One great thing about CBB is that it's easy to watch for those of us who work or have other obligations. Two hours and done. FB is more of a production, even when I watch on TV.

EDIT: Could not have chosen more unfortunate wording if I tried in the bold. Not the conference . . .
 
UncleRico said:
Basketball and football are two different animals. There is an upper echelon that is really untouchable to small schools. Each year it is about 6-7 schools that have a chance to play in national championship game (Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Ohio St, ND etc..) while anything can happen in basketball. You only have to put 5 kids on the floor and one or two can make a huge difference. With the elite talent being one and done at places like Duke, NC and Kentucky smaller schools have a legit chance to compete with kids that have played together for four years. Football on the other hand is all about numbers and depth. There is no way a school like Montana could bump up and play the big boys. It is just not feasible or realistic. The FCS is were UM belongs.. much better than being a low level FBS school where your best hope is playing in some meaningless bowl game in front of a half empty stadium.
Click to expand...

But while it may not look like it, it is an evolving world. 20 years ago it was USC, UT, Nebraska, Miami, BYU, etc., etc. that were fighting it out for national championships. So it IS possible, even at the pinnacle, for things to change.

And "having a chance" doesn't mean a whole lot when it's also the same 5-6 teams in college basketball. Since 2004, UConn (3), UNC (3), Duke (2), Villanova (2), and Florida (2) have won 11 of the 16 NC's...and the others were won by blueblood teams like Kansas, Kentucky, Louisville & this year's Virginia. 9 of the last 11 NC's have been won by a team from either the ACC or Big East.

I guess for me, I don't hate the BSC. I hate what it's BECOME, and hope that at some point we'll get back to being a smaller conference, where everyone plays everyone, and continue to up our game(s) in both football and basketball.

At the end of the day, in either sport, I think your bolded statement is correct. It's just not feasible or realistic (to move up). We are who we are. If we (as fans) aren't happy with that, then I guess it's time to take your ball and go root for another team...
 
CDAGRIZ said:
Some interesting points. Good topic. The only thing I have to add is, for me, football is always the main source of pride/disappointment/discussion. Not just at UM, but in general. Around any office, you have alums from different schools talking about how one another's football teams are doing that season. Not so much during CBB season. I'm not sure, but I think it's due to the fact that it coincides with the start of the school year and attending games was our "intro" to college life, school pride, etc. It's just something about the fall air, the start of a new school year, and the feeling that anything can happen. Many of us never really grow out of that particular aspect of that time in our lives; and that's a good thing.

Conversely, while I honestly love basketball and like to think I know much more about it than FB, I think it suffers from timing. Overlapping slightly with FB, getting into the swing of things when it's dark and cold by 4:30 p.m., finals, and winter break, all hurt the atmosphere; even for alums for some reason. It's absolutely awesome to see the recent rise of UM hoops, and I believe the sky is the limit. I'm just trying to say I hope UM sports never become like Kansas or some of the Northeast basketball schools where FB is such an afterthought. One great thing about CBB is that it's easy to watch for those of us who work or have other obligations. Two hours and done. FB is more of a production, even when I watch on TV.

EDIT: Could not have chosen more unfortunate wording if I tried in the bold. Not the conference . . .
Click to expand...

Hey, that was a great post, and this is a good discussion.

As you say, timing is everything. College football arrives right at the end of the summer doldrums, when the baseball season has been going on for five months, and you're eager for a new sports fix. Not to mention the pageantry of college football, the roar of the huge crowds, the evocative nostalgic feelings toward your alma mater, and the (usually) friendly, good-natured rivalries with your sports buddies. I not only get it, I feel it.

My love of basketball goes back to when I was a kid, and played on our church-league basketball team. I can still smell those old ratty church gyms, and remember the proud glances from my father if I scored a basket--few and far between! And of course, I lived through the heyday of Montana basketball, starting with the Jud Heathcote era.

Today, two of my best buddies and life-long friends are basketball buffs. One is a true-blue Carolina buff, often insufferably so.The other is 6'11", played at Drake and then professionally for a team in Paris, where he met the love of his life and settled down. In fact, we just met two months ago at Cafe Deux Magots, where he looked like the Eiffel Tower walking in. The place was jammed elbow to elbow, table to table when we sat down, but after an hour of talking basketball, loudly and excitedly I might add, I couldn't help noticing empty tables all around us. Both these friends know basketball, follow it avidly, and are well aware of how well Montana is doing.

But back to the Griz, to football. Yes, I'm glad the merchants in Missoula benefit from Montana's football team, but that's hardly a rallying cry for a Griz alum living a thousand miles away. The reason we can't draw better teams is that we don't play in a better conference: Water seeks its own level. And so that's probably what this all comes down to, more bitching about the Big Sky conference. Anyway, the conversation in the middle was most enjoyable.
 
citay said:
CDAGRIZ said:
Some interesting points. Good topic. The only thing I have to add is, for me, football is always the main source of pride/disappointment/discussion. Not just at UM, but in general. Around any office, you have alums from different schools talking about how one another's football teams are doing that season. Not so much during CBB season. I'm not sure, but I think it's due to the fact that it coincides with the start of the school year and attending games was our "intro" to college life, school pride, etc. It's just something about the fall air, the start of a new school year, and the feeling that anything can happen. Many of us never really grow out of that particular aspect of that time in our lives; and that's a good thing.

Conversely, while I honestly love basketball and like to think I know much more about it than FB, I think it suffers from timing. Overlapping slightly with FB, getting into the swing of things when it's dark and cold by 4:30 p.m., finals, and winter break, all hurt the atmosphere; even for alums for some reason. It's absolutely awesome to see the recent rise of UM hoops, and I believe the sky is the limit. I'm just trying to say I hope UM sports never become like Kansas or some of the Northeast basketball schools where FB is such an afterthought. One great thing about CBB is that it's easy to watch for those of us who work or have other obligations. Two hours and done. FB is more of a production, even when I watch on TV.

EDIT: Could not have chosen more unfortunate wording if I tried in the bold. Not the conference . . .
Click to expand...

Hey, that was a great post, and this is a good discussion.

As you say, timing is everything. College football arrives right at the end of the summer doldrums, when the baseball season has been going on for five months, and you're eager for a new sports fix. Not to mention the pageantry of college football, the roar of the huge crowds, the evocative nostalgic feelings toward your alma mater, and the (usually) friendly, good-natured rivalries with your sports buddies. I not only get it, I feel it.

My love of basketball goes back to when I was a kid, and played on our church-league basketball team. I can still smell those old ratty church gyms, and remember the proud glances from my father if I scored a basket--few and far between! And of course, I lived through the heyday of Montana basketball, starting with the Jud Heathcote era.

Today, two of my best buddies and life-long friends are basketball buffs. One is a true-blue Carolina buff, often insufferably so.The other is 6'11", played at Drake and then professionally for a team in Paris, where he met the love of his life and settled down. In fact, we just met two months ago at Cafe Deux Magots, where he looked like the Eiffel Tower walking in. The place was jammed elbow to elbow, table to table when we sat down, but after an hour of talking basketball, loudly and excitedly I might add, I couldn't help noticing empty tables all around us. Both these friends know basketball, follow it avidly, and are well aware of how well Montana is doing.

But back to the Griz, to football. Yes, I'm glad the merchants in Missoula benefit from Montana's football team, but that's hardly a rallying cry for a Griz alum living a thousand miles away. The reason we can't draw better teams is that we don't play in a better conference: Water seeks its own level. And so that's probably what this all comes down to, more bitching about the Big Sky conference. Anyway, the conversation in the middle was most enjoyable.
Click to expand...


Citay did you ever play pick up ball at the old mens gym ? (back when)
 
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